You have multiple options that beat throw/frame trap.
Your question is like asking “why isn’t the odds of guessing right on a 4-option multiple choice question 50/50 because it’s only possible to guess right or wrong?”
You have multiple options to beat the throw/frametrap, yes, I agree.
I’m saying you have to guess if they’re going for throw or frame trap. That’s where it’s 50/50. It isn’t a guess between throw/frametrap, and something else.
It isn’t the fact that there is a guess/mixup that I take issue with. It’s how centric that particular sort of mechanic is to the game. It’s constant. It’s basically all everyone really goes for once your close. I do the same thing. Once I get close, I’m looking to mix you up with throws and frame traps.
No you don’t. In many cases you have 1 option that just beats or avoids their offense entirely.
Why would Akuma for example example need to guess after blocking Blanka’s cr.lk midscreen when he can safely mashing reversal teleport and avoid every reasonable offensive option Blanka has? In this case and many others, it’s the attacker that must guess, not the other way around.
blanka obviously going to do cr.lk xx hop hop slide to punish the tele
Not everyone has a teleport though, or one that works well like Akuma’s, so that’s a bad example.
It doesn’t matter. “You can guess right or you can guess wrong” is not a valid criteria for a 50/50 mixup. Hell, you can “guess” that the opponent is going to randomly whiff a button and do full screen ultra to counter it and you can still only be right or wrong. But chances are you’re going to be very wrong.
If you want to calculate the odds it’s probably something like 65/35 mixup, with the odds stacked in the defender’s favour depending on the situation.
Simplistically, from a grounded perspective these are the options in play for the attacker:
- Meaty or instant normal/throw
- Delayed instant normal/throw
- Block
And the opponent:
- Immediate attack with a normal (standard abare) or throw:
- Backdash
- Focus Backdash
- Reversal
- Delayed crouch tech
- Block
Yes, you still have to guess. But it’s certainly not as hard as guessing a straight 50/50 because most times just mashing backdash (hello Luffy) get you out for a minimal penalty.
not every character has a backdash as good as Rose
am i good at arguing yet?
So let’s talk about a concrete example. I’m blocking a jab. Your about to go into either a frame trap setup for a counter hit, or do a throw soon. So I can do a variety of things that might beat either the grab or the throw. But doesn’t that require that I have to guess if you’re going for a throw or the frame trap?
Let me try to put it in terms that you might understand.
Suppose you guessed that I will try to throw, but instead I try a frame trap. That obviously mean you guessed wrong, right?
But what if you chose to backdash in order avoid my throw? Even though you guessed wrong, you’re still safe because the backdash also avoided my frame trap.
Do you understand now? The guesswork involved is not 50/50 because even guessing “wrong” can lead to favourable outcomes for the defender.
So, you’re saying that backlashes will beat both tic throws and frame traps?
hence, you kill two birds with one stone in getting away, hence not 50/50?
I hated the combo system in SFIV~USFIV.
I really hope we get a new proper combo system.
and less focus on combos
Yes. However, there are even MORE options the attack must consider that aren’t character specific.
Example delayed crouch tech adds ANOTHER layer to it. Because the window to frame trap a delayed crouch tech requires you to delay your frame trap (essentially attacking AFTER your frame advantage ends to create a bigger gap) . This means you can do frame traps that essentially aren’t real frame traps … else you’ll lose to crouch teching even though your opponent is pressing buttons with either option because they will block your frame trap or tech your throw if you actually use your frame advantage. So for your frame trap to mean much you have to do a lot of frame traps that will lose to stand tech or possibly even jab mashing to beat crouch tech unless you space it out where THEN the opponent could win with something like cr. MK crouch tech because you took a step back to bait their crouch tech. So now you can’t have them mashing you need to consider fierce trade combo situations and cr. MK out of block to beat dp / tech options and … AHAHHH … AHHHH … Also backdash for 3-4 characters basically win most frame trap / throw situations for no punishment that means anything without a hard read.
As you can see the layers of yomi in a simple crouch tech situation is nowhere near 50/50. There are generally an option that covers maybe 2/5 at best for the attacker. Just the attacker doesn’t always get punished so ‘losing’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘getting hit’ more so that the defender gets away scott free. Also the attacker essentially has to open himself to punishment any time he for a frame trap/throw situation or at best get his thrown tech. Stars have to align perfectly for frame trap/throw to be a strong mixup which is a personal issue i have with the game. So many times your opponent is mashing buttons during block but magically doesn’t get hit and that is just :neutral:
Yeah thats why people hated sfiv backdashes so much. Without OS it gets you out of way too much stuff.
Quite. I’ve gotten into fighting games with SFIV and I’ll say it has completely fucked up my view on how to play a fighting game. SFIV taught me how to do high damage combos with 1-frame-links sure, but it didn’t teach me about a neutral game and how to adapt, all I was doing was playing the equivalent of training mode with a walking dummy. I didn’t care what my opponent did, I just wanted to hit them and land my combo. Now I’m further into fighting games I’ve figured out that I shouldn’t be doing that and that it’s a ridiculous game plan, and play what most people call “proper” Street Fighter. If SFV gets it right, it’ll have new players wanting to learn more about how to adapt and overcome others players rather than landing long ass combos with a ton of 1f links. Combos are great and all, but there’s no point in having execution if you can’t even hit your target.
TL;DR - Give the players some learning resources for neutral game and mix-up, and less emphasis on teaching them whack combos that aren’t even optimal. (SF4 trials in a nutshell)
I know what you mean. I do this all the time with Bison’s c.lk/c/s.lp into s.fierce. If you go straight into the standing fierce they might tech it easy, but if I think they will tech, I delay the s.fierce for a split second and they get caught by the frame trap.
Throws have a wiff animation
**Backdashes don't have any hit invulnerability **
Crush Counters
There are no Ultra Combos
Normals deal chip damage
Stun Gauge is back
Target combos are more prevalent
**Higher overall damage**
Bigger discrepancies in walk speed
No Focus mechanic
**Hard knockdowns are rare**That sounds delicious. I approve.
Im really happy that option select crouch tech is gone. Thank you!
Is this confirmed? I only remember reading this on IGN