See, this is where I disagree with you, because it depends on your character. I play Bison who has pretty weak AA ability. Granted C. fierce is way better, but it’s too easy on Bison to get that blocked jump. I don’t think it’s me getting fundamentally “outplayed” because landing a jump in on Bison that forces me to block is achievable even if your skill level is WAY less than mine. And I honestly don’t suck. Not saying I’m godlike or anything, but I’m not some noobie or mid level player that can’t do his shit is my point. I do play in tournaments and can usually run at least 3 &2 or something like that. I can run with good players, so honestly, I don’t buy that it’s just me. I don’t sit there and mash crouch tech either.
It’s simple. Jump in gives you a random mixup. Period. That’s BS, and older SF games never played like that.
Now…I NEVER said that the game should have no mixups. As I said, counter hits for example, don’t depend for their effectiveness on tic throws. And if someone choses to just sit and block, that is where throws come into play. I wouldn’t mind making throws more aggressive provided you couldn’t mix them into block strings. Sf4 just is about randomness, and less about skills. Combofiend even said as much to me in person at sumerjam in NJ when they were doing the Ultra testing. He was talking about vortex and I was saying how I didn’t like it, and all this stuff. he was nodding his head as I was saying this, and finished my sentence when I said “go for the knockdown.” Then he reiterated that point and said “it just isn’t fun.” I recall my boy, and also team leader LvNyce said (because he was part of this conversation) that the game needs to be shifted more back to “fundamentals” like the older games. Combofiend agreed, as did I.
You can take that for what it’s worth. Maybe it’s a difference of opinion, but I think the current setup is more about gimmicks, it’s about randomness more so than any other SF game, and the older games were more ‘solid.’ SF4 series isn’t solid. That’s the problem. And being more “solid” doesn’t equate with being boring or w/e. You can have high intensity and offense, without randomness, spam-heavy. and total gimmicky shenanigans and 50/50 mixups. You can have a game that incorporate multiple things happening at once, such as the integration of the footsie and the zoning game, as well as rouchdown mechanics all in one. SF4 focuses more on one retarded mechanic being dominant at a given time, whether it be vortex, or some other bullshit shenanigan i.e. excessive dive kicks, tick throws, and other randomness.
So I’m sorry, and perhaps we have a difference of opinion in terms of what we think continues a balanced and overall “fun” game, but that’s just where I find myself, for better or for worse.
lol! Exactly. The irony and humor here pretty much sums up the stupidity that is SF4.
You play bison and you are complaining about not having anti airs?
That’s like someone picking gief and complaining about not having fireballs.
Sorry dude but if you get ass raped by jumpins because you are playing a character that as a rule has bad AAs, that’s you getting outplayed. Twice in fact. Once at character select where you picked the character with bad anti airs for that matchup, and the second time where you failed to properly footsie cammy and let her get in on you.
WE ALL GET OUTPLAYED. It just happens. You got hit… Outplayed. You let them get in? Outplayed. Your footsies not up to snuff against cheapass divekicks? Outplayed.
You get the point I’m sure. I understand where you are coming from. I really do. But your surmise that throws need to be weaker is just wrong. And your premise that “this never happened in old streetfighter” is just downright false. Where do you think the term “cheap” comes from? It’s from tick throw setups on world warrior that literally CANNOT be escaped once you get thrown once because there weren’t reversals in WW and you could be thrown in blockstun infinitely.
But let’s leave that bad case behind and talk about ST:
In ST if I get a deep jumpin with Ryu I get a low/throw mixup on you if I want it. If I REALLY want it against a character that has bad ways to punish blocked dps like sim, then I actually get a throw/srk mixup.
And many characters in ST are all about throw loops that just straight up kill you. So I don’t know what this presumption that oldschool streetfighter isn’t about throws, is.
As a bison player, jumpins are anathema to you. You should be doing everything you can to not get jumped in on and here’s a hint:
(That includes making a change at the character select screen when you see a divekicker matchup) but if you play the matchup on purpose thinking your footsies and offense might win out, but they don’t, that’s on you.
I literally quit sf4 because I hate divekicks (Chun user that switched to ibuki)
But don’t go and say that throws are to powerful because you block jumpins all day or get jumped in on all the time.
Streetfighter has always been about getting mixed up after blocking a jumpin except for the alphas, and that’s only because the alphas have shit throws and (A3) has a guard break mechanic so there is little incentive to throw people. Other than air throws that are only used becaus they are super high priority.
But still, I find it mind boggling that you dont think that picking a character with bad AAs against a character with great jumpins, is being outplayed.
It’s like you think that the choices you make don’t lead to being outplayed. When it’s the choices that you make that DIRECTLY result in your being outplayed.
And yeah that cammy scenario that the guy mentioned… Yeah totally outplayed. Pick a better character and don’t be there next time or do like I do and don’t play if you don’t like the top tier.
I recall the throws being “cheap” sure, but for an entirely different reason. People complaining for instance, I can remember back in the arcade days in alpha 1, when they would get thrown, was because they didn’t know how to tech, and they just blocked. in other words, they didn’t like the fact that they couldn’t just block all attacks. But that’s not what I’m saying, because I’m actually all for an aggressive throw mechanic.
It’s the fact that tic throws are an offensive go-to strategy off the rip, as opposed to being something which is deployed when you start excessively turtling, and therefore, drop your guard in the sense that you drop your offense. That is, once you stop being aggressive, and go full turtle, the throw should be there to punish you to keep you on your toes, effectively keeping you moving.
But that’s not how throws work is it, in Sf4, and we all know this. That’s like the first thing people are looking to do during block strings. It’s an integral part of ANY offense. In other words, rather than be something which punishes turtles, it is a part of the primary offensive strategy.
But what is even worse is it’s random as hell. the game is way to throw-centric, and if they changed that mechanic, say by making throws not part of block strings, but have fewer startup frames let’s say, and perhaps not as far range, you might get a situation where throws now exclusively punish turtles, as opposed to being part of the BnB strategy. Jump to throw jump to throw, counter hit setup, etc. This game is so repudiative it’s disgusting. I can predict it without thinking, but I can’t predict where the throw is going to come from. it’s just random.
I get the fact that a game can’t be based entirely on reaction, but you can make mixup points less random, and not so devastating is what I am saying. throws can be done allot better.
As for ST, I’m not really sure about that, because i only played ST back on SNES casually. Alpha was the first game in the arcade, and later on Ps1, that I took seriously.
As for Bison, yeah Bison is supposed to have poor AA ability. But my gripes wit Bison is that he’s just a really shitty character design in 4.
Now as for this “getting outplayed” issue. No i disagree there. It’s getting outplayed in a sense, sure, but not because there is a series of skills that take a high level of mastery. It’s just a dominant tactic that’s easy to pull off. the shit is tier. another thing Combifiend said when I talked to him at summer jam, was that at the time when they put in delayed wakeup, I believe he said it was one of the other higher JP players like Mago or something, who said that Diago at the time was “unbeatable.” Combofiend explained that it was because how DWU nerfs vortex. With vortex anyone can beat Diago because it makes the game into 50/50 in aggressors favor, as opposed to there being a series of skills being played at once, such as how footsies and zoning are combined into one fluid game, there the probabilities of who has advantage and disadvantages are floating and fluctuating constantly. Not just knockdown, 50/50% knockdown, 50/50%…
throws only help to enhance that mechanic. By throws being as they are, it takes away from the other skills being dominant, and replaces them with that bullshit. So yeah, there is a sense in which I get outplayed anytime someone throws me. but it’s random as all hell, and I don’t really see the fun in that.
it’s like i could go play a coin toss with you, and you might be really good at tossing that coin. Maybe better than me at that simple ass shit. Ok, sure, you might “outplay” me there. Great…
But where is the fun in that? We aren’t trying to toss the coin, and judge a chess game, and a checkers game all at once, and at different times!! The more complex game is surely the more fun game.
it is on this basis where my criticism falls.
Edit: one other thing, which I think you are getting twisted. Let’s not confuse in-game values, with ideal game design preference. I’m talking about how ideally the game should be based on my preference for how I think the game should play, that would be the most fun for me. you’re talking about the whole play to win philosophy and not scrubbing out, as if these two are in contradiction, when they are not.
Point blank, when I play, I just try to adapt and guess better next time like anyone else, when I get hit. I don’t apply words like “cheap” to my vocabulary in-game. however, does that mean I can’t have an opinion about if a game is designed poorly? absolutely not.
And you evidently already implicitly agree with me. When you said alpha throws were “shity.” See but one man’s trash is another man’s treasure, for I NEVER found them shitty! I thought the system was fine in that regard. So I think this may be a case of you confusing ideal game design preference, which is what I am talking about, given that this thread is about such a topic, and the in-game normative value of playing to win and not to complain or make excuses in typical scrub fashion. Totally different shit bro!
That must be some whack ass shit you’re smoking. ST never came out on the SNES.
As for the rest of your rant, the issue is that you’re stuck on the whole “throws to punish turtles” line of thinking which isn’t exactly accurate or ideal at all.
Throws exist as an yet another offensive tool for players to use, plain and simple. More importantly, the threat of being thrown is one of the tools that any good player should be using as part of conditioning their opponent.
Tick throw is fundamental Street Fighter 101. Sounds like you need to step your game up, or pick a new character.
LOL, really?
You put SF play on too high a pedestal.
Sounds like a you problem.
I love using HDR Ken throw vortex, you dont’t know how to defend against it. The game is fun for me.
You can have an opinion, but atleast, have some objectivity and not describe something that you are clearly bad at as a showstopper. V is gonna have tick throws/jumpin in throws, you’re going to have to deal with it.
On the subject of Tick Throws as threats:
Instinct Ryu cr. strong in your blking face
–>cancel fb for guard break + combo
–>throw you and put you in a meaty situation, repeat
–>step back for reversal/cr tech then st. Fierce, cr. mk xx fb
–>step back, step forward throw, repeat
–>step back, overhead
–>step back, cr. mk xx fb + gb combo
SFIV Ryu has similar options, but he does not have access to this damage so frequently.
This, more or less.
Throws in themselves are pretty middle of the pack in SF4 compared to other SFs, in my experience. They provide okay damage and a hard knockdown, which allows setups and let you continue offense, which is pretty good. They also come out reasonably fast and are easy to tick into, but they are very hard to set up without conditioning because of crouch tech and what feels like a fairly large tech window. However, the throw game as a whole is a lot better than you might think if you consider the throws themselves, because of how much damage you can get off of frame traps with most characters.
I still don’t actually like the throw game in SF4, though, but that’s because I’m far more fond of throwing people than I am of frame trapping them, and a lot of the time SF4 focuses more on the latter.
@yun4prez If you want to misrepresent what I’m saying, and retort with the same line of “pick a new character” or “just adapt” or w/e and completely miss the point of what I’m saying, that’s fine. But none of your “responses” actually engaged what I was saying. The rest of your responses were devoid of any coherent grammar, so I have no idea what you are even saying.
Well you might be right about ST. I don’t know which one it was, cause I used to play it casually at my friends house. I was an MK head, specifically MK2 at the time in the arcade. It was once Alpha dropped that I switched from MK to SF and pretty much never looked back.
Your post here misunderstands the intention behind developing a game mechanic, and what the game mechanic can actually be used for once the game is developed. Again, you confuse the “play to win” philosophy, which is totally valid when it comes to playing the actual game, and I have no objections to that, with game design and the purpose or intent to create a a game that plays like such and such. You seem to not be able to conceptually separate those two in your own mind. I don’t want to attribute things to you, but your post unavoidably fails to acknowledge that distinction, as does every post you have made dressing me prior.
For example the idea that throws exist as another offensive tool, etc. Yes that is a FACT as to how they are used, that is how the existence of the game mechanic is in point of fact, given the current game design. Well if you think about it, no one, not even me, is denying that ‘fact’ about reality. Where in any of my posts have I denied that such a fact exists? Where for that matter, have I ‘ever’ said that we should/ought not to use these tools in the game to win? Seriously.
Also, my criticism about the design of the throw system in Sf4 series catering to randomness, much like vortex, does’t at all contradict the play-to-win philosophy when it comes time to sit down and play the game. But how fun a game is based on the sort of game it is, and the playing to win philosophy or totally different, and you apparently confuse the two.
The rest of your post is simply your opinion about how you think the game should be, which, if you think about it, is no more valid than mine is, insofar as both constitute a preference about what a fun game entails.
This thread is about just that.
Now, of course we can hash it out and talk about what would be the consequences if we toned down throws or buffed them or w/e, and all of that plays a valid part in any discussion of game design. But don’t confuse this play to win mentality, as if I’m just complaining on some scrub shit, with a discussion about game design.
I’m curious here, because my experience with SF2 in general is very limited, not because I never spent time playing it, but because I never took it seriously when I did play it.
In what ways, specifically, does the throw system differ as compared to SF4 series throw system?
Exactly how and why do you think Sf2 throw system was “better” than Sf4 system?
How would we change the current system in Sf5 given what we ‘do’ know about the current mechanics based on the videos, to reflect the Sf2 throw system as you understand it.
You say that when you yourself make he assumption that the intention of throws is only to punish turtles, when their design in games shows otherwise.
And there is something to be said about developers acknowledging the emergent way players play their games, which is why systems and mechanics have changed and evolved as new games come out. For throws, their evolution clearly shows that the devs have acknowledged their use as an offensive tool. The ultimate example of this would likely be how kara-throws have become a part of the system (despite being a glitch in 3S). Kara throws greatly increase the effectiveness of throws as a straight up offensive tool. At the same time, the addition of techs is basically an acknowledgement of this expanded role of throws (while at the same time getting rid of the old way the system used to decide who to favor when two throws were input in the same frame).
On a related note, you keep mentioning something about randomness, when in truth, the only thing that really feels random is the unblockables. It seems to me that you have issues with being forced to guess, or more precisely, make a hard read (yomi). Making a read that someone will throw you instead of just attack high or low is part of how Street Fighter is played. Heck, 3rd Strike put an even bigger premium on this since, for the most part the game encouraged you to tech on prediction rather than on reaction (short 5 frame tech window plus the fact that collision between the start up and active frames of two throws will cause a tech).
The same thing goes for cross ups, something which has been in the game since SFII (just look at some of the things you can do in ST, such as Claw’s vortex). Yes, set-play in IV was looked down upon by alot of folks, yet at the same time, we do have to acknowledge that without it, IV would barely have any proper offensive momentum at all. At it’s core SFIV is a very defensive game with weak footsies, without vortex, the system would need massive changes to balance this out (add more blockstun, shorten reversal window, remove backdash invulnerability, give medium attacks better hitboxes, etc.).
Of course, it could just be that you don’t like getting thrown or having to deal with throws, but that doesn’t excuse making dumb suggestions like nerfing throws compared to IV when IV is acknowledged to have very mediocre throws compared to other SF games.
SFII had one button throws. Throws came out in 1 frame. Throws did lots of damage (ST’s throws did somewhat more that you’d get from some special moves in IV). You could option select throws and get a poke instead of a throw. Untechable (though ST did have throw softening). No recovery animation.
The fact that they were guaranteed. To beat them, you’d actually have to predict the throw.
If you want to keep the current, 2 button setup with throw techs, then you’d have to do something like the ff.
Decrease startup, something like 3rd Strike’s 3 frames of startup or even less.
Make it so that you have to tech them on prediction, with a smaller tech window after the throw connects. Instead, a bigger part of throwing should be from 2 throw attempts clashing.
Decrease recovery frames, or remove them altogether.
Increase their damage, but make it so they don’t knockdown for a million frames.
Of course, you could just make them like SF2 throws in the first place since even the system described above doesn’t truly replicate the experience of SFII throws.
SF2s throws were executed by holding towards/away from your opponent and pressing the appropriate medium/heavy button, provided that the opponent was inside your throw range. The throw came out instantly in this event. If your opponent wanted to tech the throw, they had to input a throw of their own. Teching did not break the throw completely, however: people still got thrown if they teched, but instead of eating a hard knockdown and full damage (typically 20-25%, because this was SF2 and everything did shitloads of damage), they would flip out, land on their feet, and take drastically reduced damage compared to the unsoftened throw. The tech window feels rather large compared to later games as well.
What this did to the offensive game is that it forced people to both stand and press a slow button if they wanted to tech a throw. This meant that I could mix up between going in for a throw, or nail someone with a low attack if I thought they were going to try to tech. Since the buttons that were used for teching were much, much slower than the c.LK that comes out when you crouchtech in SF4 (or the c.LP that comes out in 3rd Strike, for that matter), you had to fuck up pretty badly to get hit by the button you were trying to stuff, compared to how tight frame traps have to be in SF4. This, compared to the amount of damage single hits did in SF2, meant that if you got in on someone, you would usually get huge rewards. Mashing lights was possible, and not completely useless, but then you ran the risk of getting thrown again, and lights very rarely led to big damage in SF2.
As much as I like this system, the negatives of it are pretty obvious, though. Since you hit a medium or heavy button when you were trying to throw, if the opponent was in a non-throwable state(blockstun, hitstun, jumping, etc), you’d get the button in question out, which basically was a built-in option select. I’ve won games with Chun-li in ST by basically holding forward and pressing MP at random intervals, mixing it up with her stupidly strong c.MK when I felt like it. Shotos also had an even more stupid OS in that they could kara-cancel the button they were throwing with into a DP, which would beat most other invincible options as well. The game also had holds, a special type of throws you had to mash out of instead of teching them, which thankfully never came back because they were almost unavoidable and generally had setups that let you loop them into themselves (or, to put it another way: half the cast had a one-button vortex).
Bringing the positives of this system into SFV, without introducing the bullshit of it, is thankfully very easy. If you want to tech a throw, you have to stand. Either by not letting the game accept techs when you crouch, or by having the act of inputting the tech force you to stand. Either way is fine.
I am sooooooooooo against that. When I hard read a throw from my opponent I want to be able to go HAM.
That is a huge part of why I so much love divekicks/air normals even on the defense. My opponent attempt a throw, I read him and get a full combo, high risk/high reward.
If you want to see what it looks like, try KOF13. Having throws acting as overheads is something I like a lot. And exogen will like it because there are no tick throws in this game (After being put into block or hitstun you are throw invincible for 4 to 13frames or more in some conditions).
@d3v Indeed throws are an offensive tool. But none of what I said disagrees with that. It’s the ‘type’ of offense that I dislike. Allow me to clarify for we need to delineate. I am not saying throws should be “defensive” tools. What sense would that possibly make anyway? Throws are obviously, always offensive, unless we are talking about a punish due to high recovery frames situation, which in those circumstances means that throws aren’t the only option. And we can’t talking about command grabs either, so we can narrow that down as well.
So if you are turtling and get punished by a throw, say, in a game where throws are effective in basically only that capacity, but not effective really in other ways (unlike SF4), “punished” here, doesn’t mean “on reaction,” so the ‘prediction’ to which one would need mainly in ‘defending’ against the throw to tech it, wouldn’t be like the above where one is punished due to recovery frames on a whiffed special or w/e. We are specifically talking about people who are excessively blocking.
Excess is very much part of what I’m talking about. SF4 is very throw centric, as it is vortex centric. I am saying that in a game where throws are restricted due to mechanical reasons, to punishing those who chose to basically sit there and block, and not be ‘offensive’ in other ways, will be punished because the throw is deployed as a secondary strategy. Now again, that doesn’t apply to command grab throws which could be done differently and have different properties.
You brought up the difference between ST and current system with respect to them being one button, and you had to tech after the fact. Indeed I know what you are referring to, for I remember. I also shall remind you that Alpha has one button throws also.
I honestly don’t have a problem with throws being that aggressive. I’m all for that really. The whole two button throw thing is not something I particularly care for, and the current tech system is something I have already expressed my displeasure for.
With that i mind, let me turn to the “randomness” issue.
Your criticism appears to be as I called it before, of nothing but a redefinition of my opinion or preference under the playing to win philosophy, effectively calling me a scrub in so many words. This is why you failed to recognize the distinction between ideal game design, and one’s attitude with respect to playing the game itself and not letting any personal biases effect one’s in-game decisions and strategy. Your post clearly tells me that you are starting to recognize that fact, and I acknowledge that.
However, what you see fail to grasp is that what I mean by ‘randomness’ isn’t equivalent to “guessing” i.e. a distain for “yomi” This apparent confusion on your part is what has lead you to think that I dislike guessing, period, even though my words explicitly rules that possibility out. If you recall from my prior posts, you will note that I stressed a variety.
It isn’t that I don’t want guessing. Without guess work, you can’t have a game. After all, tic tac toe, a game based entirely on ‘reaction’ because all one has to do is follow animals algorithm, cannot actually be won, assuming both players follow the algorithm. In other words, action vs. reaction, necessarily leads to a stale mate. We even see elements of that idea exhibited in Sf4, hence why SF4 tends to be labeled as “lame-heavy.”
Why then in a game that tends to favor lameness, would I be criticizing “offense?” the reason is simple. It’s the ‘way’ that offense is applied that I dislike. In other words, it’s not that there is guess-work that is my problem. We need guesswork. It’s ‘how’ that guesswork plays out, and the emphasis.
Now my beef with SF4 isn’t only about throws, or even primarily. It’s lots of stuff. I don’t feel SF4 is a ‘solid’ engine, and am open to discussing that.
but what I dislike about your attitude here, is that you have blanket labeled me based on the imposition of a value system, and in so doing misinterpreted my words, as a fact here is this thread, and failed to see what I am actually saying, hence failed to intend to communicate. I am just trying to clarify so we can stay on topic, because talking about the whole playing to win philosophy isn’t really relevant to the topic.
I knew everything in the first paragraph you typed, but thanks. I apologize, because I should have been more specific. I was asking for more precise details. I knew the basics already, even with my limited experience with the game, but I want to know the hard-core details.
Your following paragraphs was what I was asking for thanks!
Ah interesting. And how would this implementation work with respect to reducing repetitiveness? How would it encourage players to use more of a variety?
Also, would the situation be with this new implantation, that you basically either press or mash tech, which if they do a block string and try to grab would tech the grab, but if they chose to sweep or other low attack instead, you get clipped. Is that how it would work?
Also, would frame-traps and counter hit still play a roll as it does now, or would that aspect of block string pressure be gone with respect to say jabs or w/e.?
In response to both of you at the same time. I actually like the idea of making throws SF2 throws. I think Naeras idea of getting rid of the “bullshit” as he said, and that one adjustment might work. Let’s talk about that possibility.
Where is the high risk from a close divekick to beat throws? More if not off them are safe on block if not in advantage. Trying to challenge characters like Rufus,Yun or Cammy after a blocked dive leads only to never ending frame traps.
Using a dive while on the defensive you don’t see how risky an option it is ?
If your opponent frametraps, he gets full combo.
If he guards you are with a - or a punishable dive because of the proximity. Yes if you are using claw or ken and throw from 3km apart the dive will be safe on guard an put Yun/Rufus in a good position.
You are safe only if he delays far too much.
You can have strong throws while changing the game’s fighting properties enough so that the throws dont always lead to set play stuff.
You could throw people multiple times in 3S because of some of the characters having fast walk speeds, the short tech window and them being a good way to break up parries. Not to mention you could use a parry to shut down an opponent’s attempt to crouch tech on wake up. Yet all of that on its own didn’t lead to set play or anything like that because of only supers causing knockdowns and the mix ups off those hard knock downs not having as many options for mix up or as easy to set up.
I think part of my gripe is the extreme poles which violently fluctuate in SF4 series. If we aren’t being totally lame, were being offensive in a way which become repetitive and overbearing like vortex and similar mechanics. What you don’t see enough of, is the evil keel of the footsie or the zoning game, or a rushdown that isn’t mindless.
This is the only true thing you’ve said today. So I agreed with your post.
However, you seem to have some sort of fascination with footsies as if they are the end all be all, the alpha and omega of fighting games and that there is no higher skill than picking bison and walking back and forth and pressing the mk and HK buttons… or using chun and doing that with standing strong, or picking Ryu and doing that with cr.mk…
I mean sure, footsies are the primary fundamental of streetfighter but they are not all that there is. And as far as daigo being unbeatable in ultra because of delayed wakeup… My answer is… So what? There are different skills than just having the best footsies in the world. Daigo may have amongst the best footsies in the world but that doesn’t mean that he should be protected from the blender just because he has good footsies.
And it doesn’t mean that every character needs to play like sf4 Chun Li either. If I were to ever play against daigo you better bet I’m putting my chips on a vortex character and not going to try to beat him with my footsies. But that’s me. My footsies aren’t the best but my mixups are great and my reading ability is good.
Different skillets dude. If I were a speedy boxer going up against a power puncher, you better bet I’m not going to try to sit there and trade blows with the guy. I’m going to try to use my superior speed and footwork to land precise shots.
Different skillsets.
Nowadays watching matches that are 98% footsies, bore me to tears. But I mean maybe that’s just me. But I’m not trying to have streetfighter become vortex fighter nor am I trying to have it be footsie fighter. I just want a balanced and fun game. And what you describe sounds slow and boring. In my opinion, without the constant threat of throws.
And finally, your metric of “throws should only be used against people that turtle or block to much”
Makes 0 sense in terms of measurement. What constitutes to much blocking? Blocking once? Or blocking 10 times? Or blocking ten times with the span of 400 frames? Or maybe just them sitting there doing nothing aggressive?
Or… Maybe just enough to to annoy you personally?
This is why your argument makes no sense. Blocking to much differs from opponent to opponent as far as what becomes annoying or not. The same thing can be said for attacking to much or jumping to much or not blocking enough.
If you don’t like the jumpin blender that bison is subject to when he blocks a jumpin… PICK A DIFFERENT CHARACTER, OR STICK WITH HIM AND GIT GUD SON.
Change your spacing, change your anti airs, change your rhythm and tactics etc.