There are tons of viable link combos…ryu,poison,sakura,vega,bison,chun,even balrog get respectable damage off links…maybe not into the 400-500 range like steve,nina,kaz…but still viable.
I’m personally hoping Akuma is in this game and given that SF5 seems to have a few SF3-esque traits thrown into the mix, I wonder if he is unique in that he doesn’t have EX moves again (like in SF3).
I just watched Vespers latest video.
Seeing evidence of crouch tech, weak movement, big reversal windows and super unsafe normals in the footage in addition to normals doing chip damage and possible removal of chip KO’s…makes me wonder if the devs still haven’t figured out how to create a more offense oriented game. Which, given that it’s been so long, would be odd and dumb.
See, yeah if normals do chip damage that will give more incentive press buttons, but if movement sucks and all that other stuff stays in it still might not shift things enough.
That can’t be the case right? They aren’t still seriously scratching their heads about sf4 right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkFpWiNb_W4
There is 12 Boost chain - Launcher combos in the first 2 matches alone, after that I stopped counting. How many almost identical Bob combos do you see in this match, there was basically only two variations outside of maybe what started the combo and the combos all lasted very long. That’s the thing, you find something that works and you stick with it. That is the problem with not needing to experiment because of a simple chain system leading to consistent damage. It’s also a problem with the SF side, proximity requirements are much smaller often reducing the number of hits you can do if you rely on links from standing. On Sakura, how good are her link combos outside of a clsHP/crHP starter, pretty limited, especially in regards to hit confirms. How good are Balrog’s combos before he does a launcher and starts juggling? That video is from january 2015 and chains to boost to launcher or tag combos make up the majority of combos. The homogenization of damage values on normals is probably the biggest complaint I have about SFxT’s footsies in general, ~80-90% of normals (outside of command normals) breakdown into 30 damage light 60 damage mid 90 damage heavy when the effectiveness, speed, safety, cancelability of those normals are not nearly the same across characters.
Also notice the metergain as I discussed earlier, in the first round of the first match NuckleDu gained 5 bars of meter with only getting both opponents chars down to about half health, majority of his meter gain comes from just getting beat on, that is an issue with SFxT because tags are only 1 bar so you get them ALL the time. Hell some tag combos can build back a bar. It’s like if SF4 FADC combos only cost 1 bar and everyone had Evil Ryu length combos.
Listen, I’m not hating on you liking SFxT, you love what you love. Just admit its got faults, it’s combo system is far from perfect, especially on the SF side. You ask many players and the first thing that comes to mind needing removal or fixing outside of the top 5 chars is boost combos, read any comments section or SRK thread discussing a new SFxT patch or rebalance. SFxT got anti airs right for instance, I love the high low game of SFxT Tekken Side. I think many of the tekken side have very interesting mechanics and I enjoy the stances. The mobility tools on the Tekken side are very cool even if the SF side is lacking and the 4 new SF chars are slow. You’ve also yet to discuss how chains actually can hurt games or how they should be designed for a ground based game like SF. I’d be glad to tell you how 1F links can hurt games and the many problems with SF4.SF4 has an over need of 1F links for basic BnBs (see: Blanka/Vega) not even max damage stuff, the focus system hurts many slower pokes, the counterhit Lvl1 focus crumple is dumb. There is plenty of room for improvement in the SF4 combo system too.
I know sfxt has faults never said it didn’t im just saying links are a viable option if you want to go that route,and that it’s just a flexible game on how you want to play… that’s my overall point. You want max damage links/juggle/tag combos? you got it. you wanna play a safe chain game? Go nuts. Jwong’s hwoarang is the ultimate anti sfxt from a viewer perspective…safe,lame and always leading to a time out… but then you have zombie driver which is the aggressive hwoarang,the high lows, stance cancel execution etc… if sf5 could adopt a system that allows the flexibility of a fine tuned sfxt it wouldn’t be all that bad.
The tekken side of SFxT is a far better example of the good parts of SFxT’s combo system though. The SF side is often the bad aspects of the system. That is why I’d personally have preferred no boosts but unique chains / mechanics added to SF side. Stuff like Bryan’s F-F-Punch, stuff like Lei’s stances, ect. Look at how they had to adjust Guy’s Bushin Chain in 2013 because it basically was identical to boost combos without the launcher tag.
SFxT’s high low game + chain system making true block strings + unique dodging mechanics would have been a great time to bring back Cody’s natural vism dodge since the things it can’t avoid (overheads, lows, and true block strings, command throws, jump ins) were so prevalent in SFxT. Giving Guy back his secret ism Alpha 3 teleport (also SORT of added in Omega mode) would have fit too. I’d have loved some more unique mechanics and mobility options to SF side, as well as unique chains.
Even without doing new animations they could have added some interesting stuff to chars, let Guy do FarMP xx F+MP overhead which would let him take advantage of the often neglected aspect of his F+MP: the fact you can special cancel it into a special any time before it becomes active giving it something like some tekken chars overhead feints. Give Sakura a Bryan style F-F-HK where she does her farHK but it’s a forward lunging knockdown attack and make it possible to cancel into from like her crMK or farMP. Make Chun have the option to do a Down+Forward+MP slide like her SFV. Give Akuma the ability to do something like crMP - crMK - farHK as a chain with the farHK having less hitstun so you can’t link to another crMP, then add the ability to hold down the HK button to make it only do 1 swing of the farHK as a surprise feint. Give Cody his final fight combo same as Guy, this would have greatly buffed his mid screen damage by giving him a jump cancel, maybe make his FJHP work just like his NJHP. Then Cody could do something like FF Series - FJ HP (bound) - crHP - HP CU, or just make his unique like the FF Chain in Omega mode with the feint option.
Things like that with multiple different ones for each SF char without boost chains but still having Launcher cancel with normals / some unique chains would be a lot more interesting and varied than just boost chains with auto launcher and would have made viewers more interested IMO. Also toning down how long juggles can go in SFxT would have done a lot, yeah as the game progressed people stopped doing their longest juggle options in exchange for properly setup ones that do better damage but they still often last a long time.
Which is a great transition to SF5, we’ve seen at least Chun has some decent juggles with things like her DF-LK Launching then doing her stomps into her pinwheel. Should everyone have juggles + launchers? Would that make the game less oriented to ground play or is that ok? SF3 had a decent amount of juggles but they were usually shortish outside of corner stuff with chars like Oro/Urien or Yun GeneiJin or the goofy Dash - Jab - Dash Jab stuff with Makoto. Any ideas / suspicions on how the juggle system may work in SF5? I kind of suspect it’ll follow the SF4/SFxT rules with specific moves being able to juggle specific times based on how much they increase juggle count and how high a juggle potential they have with 0juggle launchers allowing any move to juggle beyond throws.
Anyone seen if counterhit air moves cause juggleable knockdowns like in SFxT/Alpha series and beta SF4 or is it like current SF4? Personally I kind of like the Alpha/SFxT style, it encouraged early Air2Airs and also makes punishing slower startup dive kicks or low height dive kicks with an early air 2 air or anti air normals much greater. At the very least you typically get more frame advantage than an air reset does in SF4.
Also I hope given the slower speed that SF5 has a viable to getting damage high low game of some sort. With slow walk speeds I imagine it’ll be harder to open people up or get close consistently so chars that thrive on that I would hope would have Dudley/Elena levels of high low options.
By how the production process is going so far, I know that there is probably going to be a lot of neat “character-specific” mechanics while they reinforce the general system mechanics. Sort of like how Killer Instinct is doing.
I’m worried that the char specific mechanics might only be tied to the powerup mode which doesn’t affect the match all the time the way something like Milia’s hairpin or Baiken’s free counters or KOF Chin’s drinking or Hakan’s oilup or Akuma’s no EX moves or (as I love bringing up) Cody’s dodge mechanics.
The powerup thing makes me really excited though.
I was reading the article on that block+throw tech dragon punch thing, and it’s enough. I hope SFV does a better job of reducing OS’s because it’s gotten ridiculous now. I like how Mike Z explained OS could be taken care of
…never a thread without it. /kappa
I do think SFxT handled combos way better than SF4 did, with the very notable exception of the combo length. Then again, I think almost any fighting game handles combos better than SF4 does.
Also, you mention the fact that you see “the same 3-4 combos over and over again”. This is a complaint I’ve heard before, but never really understood, as this is the case in almost any fighting game I’ve played. What games are you thinking about where this isn’t the case?
Ideally I’d like to see a combo system that functions like KOF13 minus the HD custom combos. The basic combos are usually very simple and can easily be learned by almost anyone, but the game has systems that expand your options greatly once you get better.
I’m gonna just put this out there but there is absolutely no reason why every single character in SF5 shouldn’t have *at least *2-3 command normals (about half a dozen should be the norm), each with their own unique properties. It’s one of the things that always pissed me off in SF4.
I perfectly admit I post Cody’s vism dodge a lot, look at the design and it pulls the characters tools together PLUS as I’ve said I like unique mechanics on characters as I’ve emphasized just as much in here 
SF4 doesn’t use the same combos all of the time, they vary quite a bit because they are often a lot shorter and thus they never get the chance to reach Bob levels of repetion.
Most characters in SF4 vary their combos into at MINIMUM a dozen or more based on situations because they usually can’t extend it long and not everything leads to the same options.
Cody combos used REGULARLY AND usually ideal for the situations available.
Spoiler
clsHP - crMP - HP Criminal Upper
crLP - clsMP - crHP - HP Criminal Upper
crLP - crLP - crMP - HP Criminal Upper
crLP - crLP - crMP - LK Ruffian
CH ClsHP - crHP - HP Criminal Upper
CH ClsHP - EX Badstone - FMP - clsMP - crHP - HP Criminal Upper (corner only)
CH ClsHP - EX Badstone - crHP - HK Ruffian - FADC - F+HK - EX Criminal Upper
F+MP - Ultra 2 (spaced or with CH)
F+MP - crLK - MK Ruffian
F+MP - crMP - HP Criminal Upper
clsHP - crMP - HK Ruffian - MK Ruffian (character specific)
F+MP - clsMP - crHP - HP Criminal Upper
F+HP - crLK - MK Ruffian
sLP - sLP - sMP (Knife)
crHP - crHP (knife)
crLP - sLP - crLK - MK ruffian (knife)
crLP - sLP - crLK - LP Criminal Upper - crMP (knife)
F+HK - MK Ruffian
F+HK - EX Ruffian - EX Criminal Upper
That is just a handful I can think of that doesn’t even cover EX Zonk combos, most of his plethora of counter hit combos, regular zonk combos, jump in starter combos, his many many character specific combos or even HALF of his FADC combos.
I’d say SFxT Cody’s repetoir of combos used on a regular basis end at about a dozen or a couple more that aren’t a chain into launcher or a tag into 2-4 rote combos from tag partners depending on the setup the tag partner wants. Why? You can do stuff like chain into EX Zonk all the time from any touch. Because launchers reset juggles and usually result in one specific situation (opponent is in the corner and thus the tag takes a little longer to get there). Sure he CAN do more but how often does he actually DO them?
That is the thing, sure the stuff before the tag might be slightly varied but MOST combos are about getting a tag and the tag combos are where they last a long time and tend to fall into the same set of combos.
Once a combo hits a tag the difference combos drops down tremendously usually because you get the same options always the moment you tag and it’s a matter of what is the setup you want and there is no need to change your combos. Tags not resetting juggles would have probably done a lot for reducing the length of SFxT combos as well as forcing people to change combos on the fly based on starter and situation.
The other area they tend to be similar is a chain into an EX move because there is almost always ONE ideal EX move that launches or leads to a combo and it usually sets up the same situation because the chain moves you closer preventing the need for most spacing specific combos or hit confirm combos changing up due to pushback, this is less prevalent but still happen a quite a bit.
I really like a lot about the tekken cast before they start their tag/juggle combos. If you look at tiers you’ll notice that the bottom half of the tiers are heavily SF characters, yeah there are some tekken chars but for the most part SF chars make up the bottom half and tekken makes up the top half. This is because of the juggles the neutral the chain systems the tag systems being designed with tekken chars in mind not SF chars.
The tag system is a big problem AND a really interesting mechanic. The thing is that tags and auto launchers make up a huge majority of combos, most combos build nearly a meter and a launcher tag is free. A tag combo usually does more than a non-tag combo without spending 2-3 bars or playing specific characters. Tags get more meter building, more corner carry too but they tend to fall into rote combos because they are the BEST options and always available because tags are consistently the same situation where as something like SF4 doesn’t always allow the same situations.
No Option selects please
Anyways I remembered that SF5 is pretty much confirmed to work on a link based system via the matches we’ve seen and even the charlie reveal trailer so discussing the boost combos is kind of moot in here, what needs to be discussed is the juggle system.
Yeah, execution shouldn’t be taken into account when considering balance. I could see a couple of things here and there that awkward to perform and the reward was quite big, like Sagat’s Super/EX DP > U1 juggle or something, but those aren’t huge parts of his game.
Capcom better announce Cody soon or face the wrath of Eternal. Isms are baller though I wanna see some of the cast(If any Alpha guys make it) combined into characters unique modes.
I’m kinda hoping they ditch the trench coat for Bison when they pull the gameplay reveal, never been a fan of that look.
just get rid of the whole juggle potential system and use a simple juggle limit like SF3 did. This way, you make combos freer and easier to do, while at the same time, having something that limits them from going on too long.
I kinda like the juggle potential system, it makes you think a little more when you catch somebody in juggle state. SF4s however was a little too lenient.
I’d be happy with Maki or Eagle or Makoto and no Cody TBH, or a cool new character who strikes my interest. Really I just want a character with some unique mechanics or lots of interesting normals. That’s one of my fav things about Cody in SF4 is the tons of normals with weird angles/uses. You’ll notice that in many of the chars I tend to be drawn to (Rolento, Sodom, Juri, Makoto, Karin, Cody, Maki, Eagle, Rock Howard, Hibiki, Chin, Shen, Baiken, Venom, Peacock, Squigly, BB Hood, Hsien Ko, Taokaka, Bryan (SFxT), Alisa (SFxT), Lei (SFxT), Steve (SFxT), ect) a lot of them have unique mechanics and weird normals.
I hope they take a bit of a page out of their tekken designs in SFxT and make some fun / interesting normals or weird mechanics and a decent high low game. Steve’s kick dodges were really unique to SF or 2D FGs in general (AFAIK).
Seems my phone went AWOL earlier and had me double posting my own quoted comments, whoops.
Yeah, I agree on the principal of having unique characters. But I suppose that should really be their aim for EVERY character. Even the shotos could use with a slight revamp, more unique normals need to be present IMO, it just adds to each character’s identity and really helps them establish their own game, or the style of their gameplay. Things like Cody’s Crack Kick strike out to me pretty big here, or Guy’s Ninja Sickle. They’re both pretty unique looking normals and they both have cool little uses.
They could really take a quick look at Guilty Gear and see that unique character mechanics aren’t always a bad thing. Hakan was a nicely thought design and brought in an eccentric fighting style, the character himself is kinda bad but the concept was cool at least. Less clones, tone down the shoto ratio and up the unique cast members. I’d like that, but a lot of people really do love their shotos.