but then negative edge will fuck your day up when you get baited. Let the mashers mash, I say.
I just find it a bit of a non-sequitur that you want 2-3 frames for reversals, but more leniency for combos. I do see the difference in gameplay and pacing terms, but youâd agree that not everyone can reliably hit those reversals? If you want to grant those with good reversal timing an advantage, why hamstring their execution gifts by removing the same 2-frame conditions from combos?
Yeah, letâs steal the beginnersâ meter and throw their fightbags onto the roof!
I donât even know what youâre talking about. A reversal window allows you to input a command within a certain frame window (5 frames for example) and your character will perform the reversal on the first frame possible post-recovery. Aka you canât perform a reversal too late, the reversal window only allows you to input it before. Reversals have nothing to do with combos so execution is only correlated with the reversal timing; which is realistically going to be determined by how much lag your tv/monitor has since that will effect the timing of your inputs compared to whatâs displayed on the screen.
Iâm actually the same way with certain games. Iâm usually drawn to high execution characters for the most part, but if I plan on playing a fighting game that I know Iâm not going to dedicate a lot of time into; Iâll just pick a character whoâs bnbs have low execution requirements while also fitting my playstyle. Thatâs actually the reason why I main Kanji in Persona, I was drawn to his easy bnb execution which are also high damage output. I can play that game really read-based since Iâm putting the opponent into a 3-way mixup every time I touch them; which just allows me to go nuts and have a lot of fun without dedicating too much time to the game. Granted of course, I do learn other characters as well as higher execution characters as I get more comfortable to whatever game.
Skullgirls sticks to a strict formula for its inputs which is; 4 frames for every direction, plus an extra 4 for when 2 directions are not adjacent and then an extra 2 for the attack input. So in practice, a DP has an 18 frame input window (12 frames for 3 inputs, 4 extra for the traverse between forward and down, and then 2 for the attack input).
Additionally, the game also allows sloppy DPs ending in forward. The trick however is that if you go and press forward, then do an hcf, you will get a fireball, not a dp.
The idea is not to allow people to mash reversals, not to prevent beginners from hitting them. What we donât want is someone just jamming their stick into down-forward willy nilly and getting a DP when their opponent drops a combo or attempts a reset. Meanwhile, thereâs a difference between having 18 frames to do a DP and making sure that the last input comes during a certain 2-3 frame window and having a smaller window in general to do the move.
Agreed, absolutely. How would you feel about Boxerâs cr.MP link being 2-3 frames instead of 1? Yâknow, links that are just single buttons without directions (or JFs)?
As stated. I donât like 1 frame links.
More precisely, 1 frame links shouldnât be BnB level stuff. If they do exist, it should be for impractical combos and stuff you donât usually use for competitive play.
Wouldnât reducing the reversal window make some moves too difficult to punish on block though? Like Blanka ball for example, which is often only punishable by reversal special moves. Maybe lowering the reversal window isnât the only solution to the mashing problem?
Also, I read somewhere they changed how the inputs/input buffer work for omega mode. Can someone enlighten me on what exactly changed? Because inputs definitely feel different on some characters.
Basically for most moves you could link out of (but randomly not all because capcpom), they added a ~2-3F buffer (sometimes higher but usually 2-3F) where you basically cancel into a move you input on the frame after a move technically recovers. So you get ~3F buffer window and any move input during the last ~3F of recovery occurs as soon as the move recovers. This system was setup manually for each move with a cancel system just like if you had a move you could special cancel on hit/block or whatever so sometimes they forgot to do it.
Had a feeling that was coming.
You must be fun at parties, especially cause you canât take a joke. How long did it take for you to come up with that apostrophe insult? (if you can call it that) Are you really correcting me on that one little mistake? Pulling out the grammar Nazi card over a non formal setting like an internet message board is a bitch move, might be digging a little too deep their buddy. As long as youâre happy, i guess that makes me happy, hopefully you got a sense of relevancy from that comment. Too bad i canât do anything about your shitty taste in avatar pictures.
I agree. I think one frame links add a lot to the game, characters just shouldnât be dependent on them. Like SF4 boxer could still have his day one combos, but you can go for the low strong links if you want to take a risk. Thatâs just fun. Whatâs not fun is Rufus being able to do nothing without a one frame link. This is all assuming plinking didnât exist.
Execution is a big part of fighting games. It adds tension and an infinite single player mode. Rock/Paper/Scissors+spacing is just not that interesting. I think a lot of fun would be lost if beginners could execute everything immediately.
Or, if being punishable only by reversal makes a character too strong, they could give those moves extra recovery frames. This is a balance problem, not an execution one.
I think you have a point here, but I donât quite think âfunâ is the right word. Some sauce would definitely be absent though.
If links, specials and combos were easily accessible and with very low skill barriers to execute, the game would be as dull as SFxT. Conversely, if Joe playerâs tournament life comeback rests heavily on him executing an intricate punish that has just opened up for him, the hype and anticipation seeing him execute flawlessly under pressure (or indeed fucking it all up completely) is what delivers a LOT of the excitement in fighting games - both when playing and watching.
In the above situation one gets to apply their practise for a situation that calls for it. Spectators get to appreciate the skill and cool required to keep things tight when it matters and perhaps go home and try their hand at it also. Commentators get something to squawk about. Random dudes on YouTube watching the video get to marvel at such a wicked combo, think to themselves âfuck yeah, that game looks awesomeâ, give the game a shot, realise what they saw wasnât a God of War quicktime-event-dial-a-combo and instead something that requires genuine skill and practise and then come to realise âoh shit, this game actually requires practise and skill to get on that levelâ which I feel is something many outside folks to the FGC are coming to realise about these games. That is, only mouth breathing retards see this genre as âmashing buttons.â
Execution I feel does need a realistic entry barrier lest the game see signature aspects get traded away. Iâm not talking about making aspects difficult for the sake it, but I feel easing up in execution difficulty (from where it stands now at least in SF4) has the potential to make things dull.
The problem with SFxT combo system wasnât that execution was easy, it was that any touch often led to a rote combo and that it got boring. There wasnât nearly as much usage of just raw pokes for the sake of poking / countering pokes and that every normal had an ideal, almost always available, and consistent pathway to the next combo. Plus most combos were juggle combos so the only real differences in them were based on the post combo setup you wanted or trying to get a gem to activate.
It made combos very âsameyâ
Itâs why IMO there should have been more high low options on the SF side, and some new unique tekken style chains on the SF side. In addition not EVERY normal should have been chainable or launch cancelable, much less having boosts autolaunch. Would have forced more variety, you could go for the normal that is better in a specific situation but doesnât result in a combo or the normal that results in a much less ideal combo but is safer or a normal that has short reach but goes to the combo you want. Things like that ARE in SFxT but are less emphasized for most characters. Hell, some characters are basically garbage without boost combos. Rolentoâs most damaging stuff REQUIRES boost combos, Codyâs whole strength after his demolishing in 2013 of his non-chain combo options is that he has his crMK slide allowing basically any touch to close distance and open up a tag combo, plus a variety of normals and F+HK corpse hops screw up rolls. His crMK slide is one of the few non-command normal non-hard knockdown slides in SFxT so he can use it in boost combos.
Wouldnât that be an okay thing, instead of "welp,cr.mk shit buttonâŚcl.hk shit/situational button"your whole nuetral is just as dangerous with buttons being able to lead to decent/significant damage.
As it relates to SF5 being heavily focused on meter management, I think it is plain to see based off of what we have been shown already.
Things like meter length being character specific, Ryu earning extra hits on hadouken off of activation (also this carrying over into the next round), and the simple fact that there are 2 separate meters (ârevengeâ and âsuperâ) are pretty much the writing on the wall.
These are not likely mechanics that will be scrapped altogether (tweaked sure). They obviously spent a significant amount of time thinking this stuff through. Whether you like it or not is something else altogether. I tend to like it.
Letâs see how building meter is managed in the final build. 
Not really, you actually get LESS useful buttons with the SFxT method. In SFxT method you often boil down your buttons to 2-3 buttons useful for starting chains in different situations and 1 mid and 1 strong useful for finishing chains (if that). In your description you might have 2 useless buttons and 10 useful buttons but only useful in specific situations.
Better option is simply: make better buttons with a variety of buttons covering a variety of different useful situations. Go with the Makoto method of design where maybe only 2 buttons arenât useful in footsies rather than only 2 buttons being useful in footsies.
If you want to go with everything chaining you need to
- Not have a launcher in every combo leading to a full combo (even if ABC-Launch isnât ideal itâs still used in SFxT now, though often itâs AC-Launch or AB-Launch for some chars or simply ABC-Special that causes juggle - Launcher - setup)
and more importantly - Give a very large variety of uses to normals in neutral as well as a large set of mobility tools like Darkstalkers or Guilty Gear. Normals that have unique properties. normals that have weird ranges/attack angles. Tons of varied mobility options in air and ground. Strong specials used in neutral to control space in a variety of ways (Hsien-Koâs pendulum is a great example of both the varied mobility and unique space control you wouldnât see in SF. Or Jedahâs crMK for odd normals that control space in unique ways.) This isnât how SF typically works.
Not to mention in Darkstalkers chained normals are not special cancelable while in SFxT they retain the ability to cancel into EX Specials allowing you to easily to use a simple chain into a special combo.
Of course this is just my way of seeing the way the games are played and the mechanics mesh.
Idk i found sfxt characters to have a wide range of buttons that can turn into damage. I guess thatâs why i enjoy it so much cuz it can be super momentum based or neutral heavy. You can play the game very basic with sticking with chain and boost combos or if you want to dive into juggles,links,stance cancels etc a little bit more freedom to tailor your game.
Here is the question though: On the SF side how many normals do you actually use in neutral? 2-3+an anti air? Bison has what: farMK and farHK, slide and the rare crMP? Meanwhile in SF4 you see him use crMP, farMP, farHP, crHP, farLK, farMK, farHK all for a variety of situations. How often in SFxT do you see Dudleyâs F+MP? Thatâs a key normal in SF4, almost every normal Dudley has gets used in SF4 regardless if it leads to damage or not. How many butons you see Vega use regularly in SFxT? How many you see in SF4? SF4 I see crLP, crLK, crMP, crMK, crHP, crHK, farHP, farLK, farMK, farHK all used all the time in footsies. SFxT I see maybe half of those used outside of a chain combo or juggle (I rarely see crLK/farHP/farLK and crHP is mostly just anti airing almost never a poke). A lot of buttons get left on the table in SFxT that are used regularly in SF4. That should tell you something.
No one in SF side has stance cancels, the overhead game is lacking at best. The juggles is a big thing which I pointed out, youâve got the same basic combos for everyone. Whoever you play you tend to stick to a small handful of combos and the majority of combos revolve around juggling in SFxT rather than links. you CAN go for links but rarely is it as effective as the characters who have great juggles. If it was than Lars, Cody, Guy, Balrog, and Sakura would be all a lot higher tier placements than the midish tier they are, especially Balrogâs low tier. Compared to chars like Jin, Kazuya, Alisa, Xiaoyu, and Hworang they fall very short. Most of the chars who played based on links in SF4 barely scrape by mid tier in SFxT, itâs about chains and juggles more than links.
Juggles are at high level (from what Iâve seen) pretty often limited to 3-4 sets of combos. You get your corner carry / gem activate combo, your knockdown setup combo, your max damage combo, and your meter building combo. They are almost always available dependent on resources, there is rarely variations in what you can do and when because itâs so juggle reliant. Only time you really see people switch it up mid combo is if they get close to the corner and can do one of their corner only juggles or they want to get fancy. You CAN do more but there is often simply a best option usually available. More interesting is the knockdown setups after thanks to rolls and the stronger high low game with the Tekken cast.
Many characters on the SF side especially HAVE to use chain combos because their juggles suck or are limited to corner and their link damage sucks. As I said before, Codyâs combos mid screen blow in SFxT unless he has 2 bars. He is mostly just there to tag in your better character by using his chain or criminal upper tag.
Only the Tekken side of the cast really shines in SFxT in regards to the combo system actually expanding the game. Guess what though? They have the things I was talking about, normal attacks with strange/unique properties or angles of attack, unique to them chains, unique mobility options and generally speaking more variety of options in neutral. They are the chars that donât need the boost system in the first place. The boost system was in many ways a cop out to keep from having to create unique chains and mechanics for SF side and just be able to port the SF4 chars with minor tweaks (many SF4 errors in are SFxT because they just copied the characters files and modified them for the SFxT system rather than redoing it)
I donât dislike the SFxT game systems at all, I just see a lot that could have been done alot better, mostly on the SF side. I do see a lot of potential in the high low game especially but and I hardly think the combo system is ideal for how to do an SF game. Having every button lead to damage, especially since the damage on every button is pretty much the same across the board in SFxT you homogenize footsies in a lot of ways. Also its such BS, Abelâs farHK should do more than Vegaâs, in general the normals should be damage based on the merits of the move and the characters other options but thatâs another rantâŚ
Freedom often leads to people finding what works and sticking with it rather than experimentation. You see this in every game, not just fighting games. You find the path of least resistance and all you do is try and perfect that path. Itâs also a problem with game design itself, often the best games and most creative art choices come from being forced to work within limitations.
The design of Mario was actually a directly caused by the limitations of the time:
http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/mario_history.shtml
Edit: Sorry for the long rant, itâs something Iâve thought about several times over the years since SFxT came out and I really liked some of the ideas SFxT put forward. Iâve really wanted to mod SFxT for a long time.
How should meter be handled in SFV? We already know characters have varied meter maxes, and it seems that activating your powerup mode takes the whole bar. However with ex moves still taking only 1 pip of meter should meter gain be high or low?
Personally Iâd like it if meter gain for blocked attacks and blocking attacks was toned down a bit from SF4 and especially SFxT (where you could easily gain 4-5 bars in a single round with almost exclusively defending/getting hit), I feel like without a universal guard break system itâs too easy to build a lot of meter simply for blocking pokes and frame traps. Iâd mostly like the reduction to be on the defender rather than attacker.
However Iâd like the metergain for whiffed normals to possibly return from SFxT/older SF games, maybe even varied based on like the effectiveness of the normal. Typically metergain on normals is usually pretty universal via L/M/H breakdowns (like 20/40/60 in SF4) be cool to make it something they change up more like how they do with Damage / Stun values. Adds more use to various normals. Also a bit more meter for whiffed specials, I feel like fireball meter gain should be more like 50% whiff 50% hit/block rather than the 33% whiff 66% hit/block breakdown it is in SF4 (10 on whiff + 20 more on hit). Buffs zoning indirectly.
Meter gain for landing attacks, or throwing out attacks that are blocked.
Zero meter gain for blocking, taking damage, or whiffing attacks.