Well the thing is too. In 4, throws were really dominant. To the point where you could use them as a reversal and be fineish. Capcom I think realized this and nerfed their effectiveness in SFxT to the point where the general communtiy went “OMG throws ARE SO BAD NOW!” wah wah wah wah wah. They were to an extent.
I think throws in 5 should be 5f start-up, 2 active 23 recovery. And the range is universal across the cast. No kara throws (although those were fun to use).
Back to backdashes. I think they should give backdashes (like I said before) if you are hit during your airborne by ANY attack that’s not a throw that’s an automatic juggle right there. No resets, no getting away easier anymore. Because now offense just can’t go ham and never worry about that their opponent is basically “stuck”, but now defense isn’t rewarded near scot-free mechanics because if the backdash is caught…you’re gona get hurt and not just by a small 30-60 dmg move…more like 100+ dmg. Something people might go “hmmmmmmmmm…”
right. I could respect some sort of compromise. I’m hoping 5 won’t be very throw heavy. Like maybe a player has to be right next to somebody to throw them (at least for universal throws). No +5 jabs on hit to walk-in throw. SF4 was really lacking in characters with good escape options. Everybody wanted escape options seeing as most reversals, even DPs in some circumstances were bad/too risky. But the game wasn’t “supposed to be played” as a cat-and-mouse game its players want it to be.
I think if 5 has a character roster with more normalized life levels, then throws wouldn’t seem as strong either, or at least a player would feel more motivated to take the mix-up than to think just because they’re at frame disadvantage they’re already up against the ropes. I’m hoping 5 won’t have insane damage potential as it’s been in 4 with certain character’s rush down and resets, or supers to ultras etc. that’s probably the biggest reason nobody wanted to stay still.
I’m confused by this man. That’s really not it, it’s the other way around actually.
Most character can’t do shit to you, not even a low damaging + okizieme combo anymore (because of the DWU) therefore it’s really not scary to do dumb stuff ; this is the reason why nobody want to stay still, you don’t risk much by mashing a dp or backdashing most of the time.
I also disagree about the throw. The throw was always an important part of sf. We’re not talking about vampire savior or guilty there or even kof. The mix ups in sf are pretty weak, we need a strong throw to force people to be defensively active. The only thing dumb as hell is the crouch tech, this stupid system has to go.
What?! I’m sorry but IV has shitty damage in general aside from a few characters. In fact, V needs to have higher damage in general, especially out of single hits and anti-airs, to be a better game than IV.
For the record, I meant that you did have to work to get your damage. But take a character like Dudley, Fuerte, Makoto, Rufus, or Abel. Your character can be sitting on 30% mounting a comeback, then they hit you with one launcher/overhead/command throw and it can mean gg for you.
And I agree crouch tech is pretty stupid especially when c.LKs can take priority over moves that are intended to go over lows.
Here is the issue with how throws work in SFxT: they severely weakened frame traps for any character that didn’t have a high low game or great mobility.
You still had crouch teching with lights. However there was a lot more 4F lights crouching lights in SFxT than there are 3F crouch lights in SF4 (not that 3F lights are uncommon).
In addition, the old rule from SF4 of "you can’t be thrown for 2F during any state you can perform a reversal (knockdown/blockstun/hitstun) still existed, but now throws were 5F instead of 3F meaning it was easier to poke someone before a throw could connect unless they had a move that was +2F or better.
Throw range in SFxT was garbage. end of story. Combined with the slow walk speeds it was very hard for many characters to into throw range unless they had a special movement option that let them safely approach such as a special step (Bob, Kaz, Jin, ect) or a dive kick (Hwo, Rufus, ect) or great walk speed (Chun, Cammy, ect).
Proximity detection was much shorter in SFxT due to pushbox changes, many characters had to be much closer to get a close range normal while far range normals and crouching normals still had the old range. This hurts characters whose main frame traps came from close range normals, especially those with slower walk speeds. Plus there was no kara throws, look at SF4, if you want a strong throw game you generally gotta have a kara throw or great walk speed when it comes to the top tiers. SFxT it was emphasized even more so.
Lastly: Throws didn’t do much damage until they added the ability remove red health. Most throws in SFxT do LESS than they do in SF4 but in SFxT there is much more health available due to 2 characters and regenerating health, in addition throws didn’t get you nearly as effective oki due to rolls and alpha counters. This meant less damage again. Remember that the development of the vortex in SF4 was because of the strong defensive tools in the game (invincible backdashes, lenient reversals, FADCs, wake up ultras, 4 button techs, focus attacks in general, crouch teching, crouch tech confirmed to a full combo, ect.) SFxT took away some of that Oki and while focus attacks were removed they added alpha counters, rolls, and tags to make some moves safe (eventually adjusted with DPs but still possible with some moves.) so now you had all the problems with defensive tools but no option for Oki and weaker frame traps.
If throws didn’t remove red health and beat rolls in SFxT they’d still be garbage, both of those changes came about in the 2013 patch and saved throws from being extremely weak for most of the cast.
Throws did suck yes. But it was changed. I hope they aren’t SF4 throws, more akin to SFxT throws. Albiet with a little more range (just a tad). As long as jabs/shorts aren’t a major deciding factor this time around where where jab confirms=40% dmg then I’m fine.
As for dmg output of SF5. I would like the most dmg any character can do with all the meter that is possible would be 50%. I’m not a fan of 60-100% dmg combos in a 1v1 game like this. Those can go in anime/marvel fighters. 20-30% on a regular basis in a 1v1? I’ll take that. Just give me more options on how to acquire such dmg and I’ll be on my way.
Overall, no one wants crouch tech to return in SF5? If it were to return, would it be okay if it was more like 3rd Strike where a cr.LP would come out instead of cr.LK? Or still stupid? I don’t dislike them as much as many others, but I can also admit it’s made me develop some really bad habits. I think getting rid of crouch tech will help people become more precise at teching throws in general.
So in SF5, if someone presses LP+LK while holding downback, should it just go into a throw animation or nothing at all? Would it be better if the throw only comes out when the player is standing? I’ve always found the idea of throws and defending against them interesting, so I usually have tons of questions on it
There’s nothing wrong with crouch tech. There’s nothing wrong with invincible backdashes. There’s nothing wrong with 2 button throws. Surprise surprise, these mechanics exist in other games besides SFIV, but you rarely hear people complain about or even mention them. The problem usually arises when several mechanics are added that conspire to deliver a poor experience overall.
People should stop talking about specific mechanics and instead think about the overall gameplay. I mean throws in Alpha 3 were bad. Zoning was a joke (full screen fireballs did more damage on block then on hit). But yet the game is still fun to play (Daigo once said it’s his favourite FG).
Changed from useless to weak. Throws still are weak in SFxT. They don’t serve their purpose to open defensive players up because they aren’t effective at it. They still suck just aren’t outright useless. Also for the most part there aren’t jab confirms into 40%. 30% sure but I can’t think of many chars except evil ryu/dudley/sakura who can consistently do 400 off of 2 jabs without 2+ bars and probably an ultra an ultra. Mid confirms into 40% for sure but jab confirms? pretty uncommon. However it’s very common to see 20-25%. The thing is that the scaling in SF4 makes it top off pretty quickly, you can get 200-300 pretty easily but past that becomes harder and harder for many chars without a couple of heavy hits early on due to scaling system.
For the jabs into whatever. I was referring more towards the SFxT scene then SF4. As for throws…I’d rather them weaker and less people use them easier to sneak them in since everyone wouldn’t bother with them anyway.
I’m not a fan of seeing jabs confirm in 20-30%. More like 10-15% would be good.
Throws that are weak means harder to open people up means weaker frame traps means more timeouts and in general a much much much much slower paced game. Especially given the fact you’ve said yourself you don’t want big combos or high damage even from footsies you want it to cap out at 40% for using all your resources.
You’re looking at a game that is less chess and more checkers, once a very simple play is made it’s basically over because the opponent has all of the options via down back and there isn’t even much risk of being opened up via a frame trap or mix up. You don’t need to worry about losing the round once you get the life lead. It becomes a poorly balanced game in terms of risk vs reward.
The only way it’d be balanced to have very weak throws would be if guard crush was added and a viable high low game that leads to some reward. You can’t have a game be all risk no reward, not only would it not be popular but it would not allow for much variety of play styles.
That’s why SFxT is a faster paced game then SF4 despite throws being weaker…right? I’m saying they shouldn’t be SF4 lvls but buff them up from SFxT. That nice middle ground. then there’s guard crush. Most likely won’t be characters specific either. And if it’s true then that theory goes almost out the window. And I said 50% max with all resources. Why should matches (and characters) all have these mega 60-100% dmg combos? This isn’t marvel or anime fighters where one touch does retard dmg.
A fight shouldn’t be 1-2 combos and game over. 3-5 I think would be perfect. Room for error, room for space, for mind games and the like. I’m not a fan of drawn out fights but I’m also not a fan of quick 1, 2’s either.
While I don’t think TOD combos for everyone is good, IMO damage should allow for 2-3 optimized combos to kill. That’s one of the things I loved about 3rd Strike, once they had meter, most of the good characters could output tons of damage, and put their opponents in disadvantageous positions (e.g. Chun could confirm into SA2, combo out of it, then get the reset into another SA2 for 80% damage).
