Improvements or changes you would like to see in SFV

I dunno, I spam LK Knee Press a lot and the only punish I’ve seen is a grab right after, and that was likely because I was expecting to block something. Those Bison players you were punishing might have been thinking LK was plus or something and tried to press buttons. Do you recall if you were scoring counter hits?

As for Knee Press in V-Trigger, the way it works is he vanishes during the respective startups of each strength. This also adds a few extra frames to the attack itself (Bison can normally combo s.LP/cr.LP/s.LK xx LK Scissors, but cannot while in V-Trigger) and increases its range a bit as well. The HK version has him disappear the longest since it has the longest startup.
Using the HK version in V-Trigger is honestly really nice for blowing up ranged attacks as Bison covers a generous amount of space when doing it (making for easy confirms into his swag V-Combos for big damage). Similarly, his regular HK Knee Press outside of V-Trigger carries him quite far as well and, if I’m not mistaken, if spaced properly is safe if only the 2nd hit is blocked.
So with that I think it’s actually a pretty useful gap closer, especially if you cover yourself using EX Blast.

Inferno is just fucking great. Throwing it out during pressure makes people do dumb shit and it’s very good for juggles and setups, such as:

j.MP, j.MP, land, LP Inferno
cr.MP xx LP Inferno - causes knockdown and allows for a Head Press setup that can result in either an OTG stomp (if they don’t tech) or a sneaky beaky Devil’s Reverse/EX Reverse (if they do tech and try to hit you or step the Head Press).
Landing a regular Inferno is also a free CA off the juggle without needing a quick confirm like with Knee Press.

V-Inferno does all of this, but even better, and of course allows for immediate EX follow-ups like Head Press or Knee Press for guaranteed and inexpensive damage:

j.MK crossup, cr.MP, Inferno xx EX Head Press
j.MK crossup, cr.MP, Inferno, wait, EX Knee Press - (Worth mentioning here that only V-EX Knee Press is able to connect for full hits on a juggle. Tested this extensively)

Psycho Blast eats projectiles, which seems to be a solution for anything his V-Skill can’t eat (being anything that hits more than once), and HP version launches into the corner which doesn’t sound so bad to me.

All this plus his V-Trigger shenanigans makes me confused how anyone could find Bison’s new kit bland.

P.S. - Where is the Bison thread? I can’t find it.

I’m not sure if it counts, but we should also have a music/sound test option like we did back in the early days of SFII.

I wouldn’t say 3S is devoid of mechanics or systems just because it has a fewer number of them. Parries have such impact on every aspect of the game that they are equivalent to like 2 or 3 other mechanics in giving a unique feel.

Chip damage on normals is not only irrelevant, it is like a trojan horse designed to fool players into embracing a game that looks to be as defensive as delayed wakeup SF4 or even more. The damage can be regenerated and the fierces are unsafe enough that it doesn’t matter. I receive 10-15 white damage and now I’m punishing consistently with full damage? I rather be on the blocking side every time.

SF5, just like 4, keeps on proving the point that stun may reward successful offense, but does nothing to help that offense be successful in first place. If opening a player up is going to be hard as hell, stun will as useful as an ad below the health bar.

V-reversals seems to be a waste of meter as of now.

Although one can count a lot of mechanics in SF5, right now a lot of them feel irrelevant enough that it’s legit to say the game is overly simplistic.

White chip does slowly push the risk reward in favor of the attacker, but yes, without a better ability to threaten throws turtling is still going to be strong

Defensive doesn’t necessarily make for a bad game. Remember, Alpha 2 and CvS2 were also pretty defensive games. IMO, the big issue with IV is a combination of the fact that the strong defense in that game never felt honest, with FADCs meaning that mashed reversals could be made safe, and the fact that the system in general seemed to discourage traditional SF footsies, in favor of getting in and trying to run offense, which resulted in an awkward dichotomy (one of the many awkward dichotomies in the game).

It’s more that just holding downback is much simpler than having to understand how to open someone up. So at this point, so early and with an early version of the game, that works to some extent.

You can poke and confirm into special/super in this game. Off a single poke.
If someone wants to try and mash low short to keep you out that’s cool, 2 hit combos and supers do more damage than throws generally.

chip damage won’t be a thing for probably most of the cast. I guarantee a new character will probably chip like crazy though and have something like a good throw to convert that grey damage more easily.

With combofiend saying the walk speeds were adjusted, that means they are looking that way but I actually think the speeds are fine, birdie is as slow and methodically as he should be and chun has a nice walk speed (could be a tad bit higher). After playing the beta for a good couple hundred matches the damn hit boxes annoy me the most… If my leg is covering your foot on a poke it should register, period. I hope they tinker with that a bit

Those games were also largely disliked while they were active. Heavily-played, sure (especially CvS2), but most players couldn’t wait to drop them for something new. And in the case of CvS2, it only got better at offense when RCs were discovered while players got better at A-combos.

Otherwise, I agree with what you said, re: SFIV’s issues I have LONG maintained that SFIV offense is BAD. But that said, the things that made offense bad in SFIV don’t seem to be present in SFV (note: I haven’t played the beta). If SFV is ultimately going to be bad at offense, it’s going to be because of new stuff at least. Capcom, thankfully, is good at correcting their mistakes, even as they make new ones. At least we know they’re committed to the long haul on this one, so there’s always hope that something egregious will eventually be corrected.

However, I do think it’s a bit premature to worry about the whether the game will be heavily offensive/defensive when it’s clear that character sub-systems (read: V-Skills/V-Triggers) are going to have a huge impact on how the game plays.

The entire point of making links less difficult is to put less emphasis on execution. Why would they then turn around and make specials harder to do?

Anyways, people have already found legit 1-frame links that require a slight delays in button timing. The link buffer only helps with immediate links. It doesn’t help with juggle timing. It doesn’t help with delayed button presses. Chun, for example, has some really specific timing/height requirements on some of her V-Skill juggles. You can’t just mash them out, so the buffer won’t help you.

I’m sure there will be other stuff that people find in the future.

Let me rephrase difficult:
I mean specific. I mean that you only get what you wanted or nothing at all.
I feel like the input leniency in SFIV and SFV is actually detrimental to beginners and results more often than not in stuff coming out you did not want to.

Personally, as an execution retard, I prefer the leniency that 3S uses. I don’t get accidental supers in that game and even stuff like walk forward fireball resulting in walk forward uppercut happens less in that game.
On top of that inputting specials and supers is not really hard in that game.

Here’s a very short list of possible changes for the game, based on current information.

  1. System: Add “off-balance” state to increase interactivity and clarity in the up-close game.
  2. Ryu: Add “Denjin Feint” move to solve a situational problem Ryu has without touching the rest of his matchups.
  3. Cammy: Buff hooligan slide to deal white damage on block and reduce the size of hits hurtbox, as a very minor change for situational utility.

System

Added mechanic: “Off-balance” state. The intent is to provide additional blockstring options for an attacker to combat a defender who is attempting reversals or teching throws while crouching.

The way it works: Any time a crouching defender performs a throw input or a special move and the attack does not come out due to blockstun, the defender is now “off-balance” for a short time. During this state, a “?” symbol will appear on their character, blue for throw techs and red for special moves that were done too early to reach the reversal window.

The effect of being “off-balance”: Attacks against a defender in this state cause between zero and two frames of additional blockstun, and while the state lasts, the defender’s expanded reversal window is gone and throws cannot be performed or teched while crouching.

Goal: Increase the clarity of the up-close game, so that the attacker is no longer the only player providing information to the opponent during blockstrings.

Input shortcuts and large reversal windows are clearly going to stay, and they have some useful effects for players who have a hard time performing the motions. Rather than penalizing the player for using these tools for their intended purpose, this change is intended to reduce their unintended side effects. The defender will have less ability to hide their decisions, and the attacker will have opportunities to act on that information to call out the opponent’s defensive habits.

Aim to provide a systemic foundation for increasing the general fun factor and interactivity in block strings, and help slow characters in particular who have trouble maintaining the threat of a throw. If nothing else, the increased blockstun provides more opportunity for the attacker to build a stock of white health on the opponent.

Ryu

Added move: Denjin Feint. Only available during V-trigger. Ryu acts like he is charging a denjin hadoken, and the buttons can be held up to the normal maximum duration of a hadoken charge.

How it works: When the buttons are released or the maximum charge duration is reached, the electricity dissipates with no additional effect, and Ryu is free to act. The minimum charge duration is no shorter than the recovery of a regular denjin fireball.

Goal: Give Ryu more options in very specific situations without damaging his otherwise well-crafted moment-to-moment gameplay and balance.

I’ve seen many compliments given to how interesting this version of Ryu is, despite his simplicity compared to more modern characters in the roster, so I wouldn’t want to touch that too much. However, in certain matchups against opponents who can afford to sit on meter, his V-trigger can lose a lot of its utility when charging the fireball will easily invite a reaction punish, and there’s no way to bait out those options from the opponent.

Assuming it’s not an option to rework the moves that cause that situation, a feinted charging animation prevents the opponent from completely shutting down a large chunk of his v-trigger gameplay. Due to the minimum charge duration, it wouldn’t really have any use as a fake uncharged fireball, so the impact on his regular v-trigger gameplay against unmetered opponents would be small.

Cammy

Buffed move: Razor’s Edge Slicer. The attack causes a decent chunk of white damage on block, and starting from the time Cammy touches the floor until the time the attack hits, her hurtbox is vertically small, along the lines of Coward Crouch.

Goal: Give Cammy another toy to play with, for a small boost to her fun factor with minimal impact on her actual effectiveness.

With this, a hooligan with precise spacing, such as against a turtling opponent or when used as a read against backwards techrolls on wakeup, can present a more significant threat of the slide next to the throw and the divekick. Universal answers to all three options will be more difficult to find thanks to the reduced hurtbox on the slide, and attacks that beat the slide, like throws and low attacks, would be vulnerable to the divekick.

In addition, if the opponent decides to crouch-block against hooligan and allows Cammy to slide, now Cammy is point blank with an opportunity to capitalize on a decent amount of white health on her next mixup.

This change is intended to be situational with a very minor effect, as Cammy generally has very few holes in her moveset that can’t be adjusted with numbers. The main complaint is that she feels too plain, and this isn’t much, but it’s a first step.

Any mechanic that helps alleviate the huge “mash 2323 during blockstrings” problem is better than nothing; that said, its effectiveness depends on true blockstrings being available to characters at more than point blank distance. If those are few or nonexistent, the problem still remains. Killing autoblock once and for all is a far more elegant solution that gives all parties what they want: the blocker now is also subjected to full commitment by having to between among blocking or pulling a reversal and the beginners still have timing leniency if they happen to choose the latter.

Input shortcuts should be optional, and only if they do not bring actual strategical consequences to the game. Being able to pull out a SRK without exposing to low attacks is unacceptable. I contest this attitude of just shrugging and go with the flow regarding these clearly impopular aspects. The playerbase would have lost if they had claimed “gems and on disc DLC are clearly going to stay” during SxT.

5 has some weird input shortcuts.
However I do supers in 3S which works is questionable in 5. A little sloppiness and I get shoryu which doesn’t happen for me in 3S.

i’m having some weird input problems with this game and i think it’s probably down to the fact that sf4 has made my execution worse in some regards.
i can sit in training mode and do bison’s raw super 10 times in a row with no problems. then the next minute i can’t do it at all. i think it could also be down to the fact i don’t really like using this dual shock 4.

We’re not talking about stuff like SFxT gems that was only in one game. Do you realize how many games have autoblock? Name a 2D fighter without red parry and it probably has it. There are good reasons why it existed in the first place, and you don’t see people complaining about it in those games, reversal window or not. I mean, they just revealed a character who would be unquestionably bonkers without autoblock. Left-right unblockables AND untechable throws.

Three points to consider. One, it’s useful to pick your battles. People have reasons behind their decisions, and if you’re just repeating an argument that they’ve already heard and decided they disagree with, you’re wasting your voice. This is how designers are. Your idea to remove autoblock is not a unique one, and they’ve probably had the discussion in their own head and decided that they are right. Instead, try to see it from their perspective and offer a way to improve the situation without contradicting the other person’s stated goals. If you really believe that autoblock is inherently wrong, then when the middle-way solution fails, you have a stronger position to bring to the debate next time, instead of just shouting the same argument into the wind for years.

Two, removing autoblock wouldn’t really give you what you want. True blockstrings are still barely in the game, and they are still not very threatening. It does nothing to help the complaints that slow characters have trouble threatening throw - you’re still going to get jabbed out all day. Plus, the opponent is still going to DP you between attacks, so all this will do is maintain the game’s jab-heavy status, besides the silly pseudo-unblockables and such I mentioned before.

Three, the idea I suggested is basically “situationally remove the bad parts of autoblock.” It’s more about throws than DPs, really - not many characters have DPs, and the ones that do are extremely punishable. I’m more concerned about quality of life for characters whose walkspeed makes it hard for them to do tick throws, and also provide some opportunity for better blockstrings without stepping on the toes of whoever at Capcom decided that it should be low by default.

Although it would still lock out the opponent’s reversal DP if you think that they’re mashing and just chain some jabs or a target combo or cancel into bison scissors. And it would show you that you had done so, which I think is a really important part of it. The biggest problem with input shortcuts is how much guesswork the attacker has to do, so any visual indicator of what’s happening is a big help. Now the attacker gets real feedback on whether their read was incorrect or just mistimed, and if they call the situation property, they get to enjoy a short time with slightly stronger framedata and more old-school defensive options on the defender.

Eh, input shortcuts aren’t a huge deal so long as you balance the risk/reward for reversals well. Eat 3-4x the damage on block or whiff that you’d get from landing one and if you do land it then you just reset the game to neutral.

Yeah, they’ve already made it obvious that you might as well lose the round if you whiff a DP. I’m more interested in making tick throws feel better for the slow characters, because that’s a common complaint. If you predict wrong and tech during blockstun once, now you have to tech while standing and are susceptible to lows with slightly increased blockstun for a short time.

But really not-so-secretly it’s “let me see what the defender’s doing already.” Might even be fine if there were no changes other than that visual indicator.

I getcha. It would be nice to know how an opponent is teching.

Also, can you counter hit throw attempts in this game? If not I wonder if that might be a boon to the offensive game

IIRC they do get counterhit state in this game if you hit them during startup.

Is this online or offline? If it’s the former, than it just might be inputs being dropped.