Improvements or changes you would like to see in SFV

Thanks for the heads up! I guess it was just a wrong impression since I have yet to play the game.

[details=Spoiler]3rdStrike is my favorite game.
I really like knockdown situations in that game. I like the mind games and meaties and everything.
I was just concerned about that little bit faster: 3S yun gets up a little faster than the rest of the cast and because of that, you can’t be agressive if you do a back-throw with chun against yun. If you forward throw, you can followup with a dash-up kara-throw, but it’s no good with a backthrow since he will be up before your dash finishes.

I’m really hyped for Street Fighter V. Hopes up!
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Did anyone see how good it was as a anti air? I did see LI Joe knock Dios-X’s Bison out of the headpress follow up. I wonder how it does vs normal jump ins.

It was good at catching people during the initial start up of their jump but most normals were doing that to begin with. If you’re talking about a full on jump-in then it doesn’t really work as an anti-air in that sense. cr.Strong, cr.Fierce, and s.RH were all more consistent anti-airs for Nash. I wouldn’t want to take the risk with his V-Skill but it’s definitely something worth investigating during the beta.

Yeah. It’s seems like it has a good hit box on the ground at least. Many normals that hit straight like that are good anti air in various games versus non angled jump ins (would beat all shoto jump ins, but lose to Vega/Nash type j.rh). If it does work well if would probably be nerfed, lol.

I honestly would like to see some system to make Option Selects nonexistant or have a system where option selects hurt the person using them. I dislike option selects because it removes a part of the human element out of the game.

as much as I’d like sf5’s damage to stay where it’s at I don’t see capcom keeping it in the fun range I think they’re gonna do the same bullshit in ultra lol.
Sf4’s original damage output was beyond perfection :open_mouth: sf2 was…oh my god. then ultra came, meh. Don’t get me wrong ultra’s better than 4 in everything else, the damage sucks though.

Hopefully if they do fuck with the damage, tone it down maybe like damage scaling goes down to 50% not 10% wtf. And maybe some way to prevent infinite–oh wait there’s V-counters.

OSs can add or remove from the game. They’re not innately bad. If both players understand the OS and the options available in any situation then it becomes part of the mindgames.

An easy example is SGGK. It OSs parry and kara throw. It beats several defensive options but also loses to several. If both players understand what SGGK does then it’s a decision with risk vs reward to consider. If the defensive player doesn’t know about SGGK then they’ll think the other guy is a genius who always guesses right.

That doesn’t make OSs bad, it just means there’s a specific piece of knowledge you have to know to play vs good people in that situation.

As for OSs that punish the one who does them, these of course already exist and the reason you never see them should be obvious. I can OS parry with Chuns standing mk if I fuck up a kara throw. Obviously that’s something I’ll never do on purpose.

And not directed at you specifically but I think this whole notion of “they should remove OSs altogether” comes from people who watch SF4 streams but don’t actually play any fighting game.

As far as I know fighting games fundamentally need option selects to function. Even though MKX is like night and day gameplay wise compared to SFIV it still has a varied amount of option selects also.

I think the important thing is just to build a game where there isn’t so many spots during attacks where the game can save inputs.

I just feel like you need to make a decision or not instead of letting the game decide the best option for you. I feel like the “specific piece of knowledge you have to know how to play vs good people in that situation” how the person has been playing in that set or historically. I just don’t agree with it. I will condede that there are varying degrees of OS (Crouch techs were pretty tame) but I still feel like that decision needs to be made by you, not a priority system.

I really agree with this methodology.

The game does not decide the best option for you. This is just a myth borne out of some players’ inability to explain Option Selects in simple terms.

You are making a decision. It’s not any different from choosing any other attack.

say I whiff low forward outside your counterpoke range and buffer super behind it. If you do nothing, I just whiff a low forward. If you dash in, low forward cancels into super. If you jump in, I recover fast enough to block or anti air. This is an OS, and it’s entirely a decision I made. If the other player knows what I’m doing, he can choose to adjust his spacing so that he can whiff punish my low forward.

Walking forward and mashing standing strong with Chun in ST, parry + throw, DED, guard jump, parry + jump, jump tech, these are all OSs. Most OSs in most games are not “I input 4 buttons and the game decided which one should come out” or whatever people complain about in SF4 (I’m not a dedicated SF4 player so I’m not an expert on how they work in that game).

Game knowledge and decision making are entangled and you can’t separate them. If you don’t know how to beat a specific OS (or even that it exists) you can’t really make a meaningful decision. But this is no different from not knowing how to punish a move, or not knowing what the buttons do. You didn’t lose to the game making a decision for the other player, you lost to you not knowing what the choices are or how the game works. Game knowledge is the #1 important thing for fighting games at higher levels IMO.

So if you take crouch tech for an example, teching the throw isn’t a better option than throwing out a crouching short that will get thrown?

That shit won’t stop infinites, this shit ain’t a KI. V-counter can only be used on block.

I don’t agree that buffering and OS’s are synonymous.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree in most aspects. I am not as eloquent as I would like to be unfortunately. I have been against OS’s since god knows how long. If I can come and accurately explain the nuances of what I mean I will. Until then, I just feel like OS’s being a pivotal part of high level play is detrimental in the grand scheme of things.

Buffering is ABSOLUTELY an option select. You’re inputting a motion, and the game is doing different things on hit or whiff, just like safe jump OS sweep or OS uppercut.

Which brings us back the point that despite apparently hating Option Selects, you don’t seem to have a great understand of what they are, why they exist, and what their downsides are.

The thing is, you really cannot totally eliminate option selects from the game, just based on how fighting games work. While yes, you can remove some input related ones like crouch tech by adding a few extra rules (like not being able to tech while crouching, or as SFV and BlazBlue implement it, getting the throw/tech animation when you try to do it), but there are some that you cannot fix easily, not without changing the way the game works and feels. Alot of OSes are simply based on whether something comes out on hit or on block (e.g. the short, short, sweep anti backdash OS). Then there’s meter based OSes where one of the options only comes out depending on how much meter hitting gives compared to getting blocked (e.g. DED OS in 3rd Strike). Trying to take these out (if it’s even possible, especially with the second example) would fundamentally alter certain aspects of the game.

No need to speculate or insult my knowledge. I won’t argue semantics. My opinion stands and I will leave it at that.

I hate option selects. They exist in more forms than just as buffers. Having said that, it is impossible to eliminate option elects completely. Mike z hates option selects as well and there are known option selects in skullgirls of various forms. We don’t necessarily like them but they are a necessary evil in many games unfortunately.

I agree, option selects are inherent of gameplay mechanics. Like IglooBob said, they can be fun when both players are aware of them and the mind games begin.

Another topic, in that video with Gootecks n MikeRoss, LI Joe said that the game is missing some extra layer before it feels robust enough for full release. I remember Jwong mentioning something about maybe implementing a groove system like CvS2. From the guys here that played it, what do you guys think? Does it need some extra layer? You reckon a groove system? I love the groove system but not sure if this game needs that from what I’ve seen, but it’s hard to tell just from watching.

Sometimes OS’s are just unavoidable within the game’s design. As long as there is a system for two buttons throws and a system for input leniency so that the two button press don’t have to be on the same exact frame, there will be kara throws. Combine that with having parries in Third Strike, it just all comes together into an OS.

Also buffers aren’t OS’s, but can help create an OS. Like if I do cr.LK cr.LK and buffer qcfs in between and press a button at the end, the game will always do super be it on hit or on block. Just because I can “hit confirm” and react to a situation so I can make committing or not committing to a move easier, does not mean the game decides for me the most optimal choice for a given situation in a singular moment.

What’s different is if I press down for down parry and st.HK kara throw with Chun Li in Third Strike. The down is a buffer for a down parry, but result of the situation comes down at the exact same moment as I press buttons. I don’t need to react to the situation and press something based on what I have observed. If they did a low attack, my character down parries and does st.HK to punish. If they did a throw, I throw tech using the kara throw. The low attack and/or throw can happen at the exact same moments but I don’t change what I do or react to the situation to change what I do, I do a single thing (OS) and it chooses the best option within that single moment. That is what makes an OS an OS.

So while a buffer may contribute to an OS, a buffer in of itself is not an OS. Don’t confuse the two.

Another example is hard knockdown OS when you jump in with a character. Let’s use Ryu for example. Ryu can do a safe jump and rhythmically press j.HK and another HK button input and that’s the jump-in anti-back dash OS. If the opponent chooses to block or get hit, there is enough block stun or hit stun (hit stop on both) that the second HK (usually a sweep) doesn’t come out. If the opponent decides to invul back dash instead within this same instance, they would get swept because the jump-in whiffs and the timing would allow the sweep to come out on time. The attacker doesn’t buffer and wait to see what happens to “decide” to sweep the opponent, regardless of the opponents options the attacker would get the preferred outcome without needing to adjust one’s timing. Sure there is an HK buffered in there, but it’s different that buffering a super during a hit confirm on lights or from a low forward.

Another common SFIV OS is cr.Light Button Sweep OS. It’s where you do your hit confirm on someone’s wake up where you start (with Ryu for example) with a cr.LK then usually do a cr.LP+HK during a chain timing. SFIV prioritizes chain attacks before anything else on hit/block, but prioritizes heavy attacks on single individual attack at neutral when pressing multiple buttons. So if the opponent blocks, the cr.LK would chain into cr.LP due to priority. If the opponent back dashes, the cr.LK would whiff and cannot chain. So when cr.LP+HK is pressed at the same time, sweep would come out and punish a back dash. The attacker doesn’t have to change or do anything whether or not the opponent blocks, gets hit, or back dashes. Just do the OS and if it hits with a cr.LK into cr.LP, then hit confirm that into a full combo. It’s just at the single instance the opponent can decide to block or back dash, that 1 unit of time they’re back dashing and are invul and airborne or could be solidly blocking, your combination of inputs pick the best result of the 2 situations within that single unit of time. All in that one moment.

Another example, there’s a new OS found in Guilty Gear Xrd. If the opponent doesn’t commit to an attack, if a person buffers a special attack or super and ends with the game’s Faultless Defense mechanic (back and two attack buttons except the Dust button), the game would prioritize Faultless Defense (FD) instead of the special attack. So if the opponent did press buttons on your wake up, you can wake up safely defending instead of having a DP whiff or get blocked. In return though, it does activate if an opponent’s attack is happening so you can blow this up using safe jumps since the opponent will OS but the player would be in an attacking state to make the opponent do a special but land in time to block a DP. But this mechanic is universal for all specials and super so it can lead to sticky situations and wacky OS’s that are strong.

But yeah, depending on how the game is made, certain OS’s are unavoidable. What makes OS’s bad depends on the person who plays the game. Like in Virtua Fighter 4 and beyond there’s an OS called ETEG (Evade, Throw Escape, Guard). When the player is at frame disadvantage, they want to get out of a sticky situation. All side steps/evades can be thrown for free (like rolls and side steps in CVS2 and KOF) so what people do is they input evade and a throw escape input at the same time. So if the opponent goes for an attack, the player evades. If the opponent goes for the throw, the player would throw escape and get frame advantage for doing so. The Guard at the end is to cut the side step whiff animation shorter so it wouldn’t get punished as hard if the opponent did nothing and delayed their decision + button input.

How do you beat that OS? You decide to delay what you do or use a low hitting half or full circular that can’t be side stepped (half circulars only cover one direction of a side step while full circulars cover both left and right directions). Then that adds more “yomi layers” (I call them decision making layers) to the game play. So although strong, the OS isn’t perfect and has its time and purpose. It’s up to the player if they want to play Virtua Fighter or not.

So when it comes to Third Strike and SGGK, it’s up to the person if they like that or not (considering counters or ways around SGGK and other factors) and play Third Strike. Same for Guilty Gear Xrd. With SFIV, it’s also up to the individual if they want to play it or not.

I decided not to play SFIV because I had to do one OS after another in typical intermediate play just to make the game play like other SF games that didn’t need to do this. I had to jump-in OS and then do cr.LK Sweep OS, then still hit confirm and plink then end. Playing Ryu felt more tedious than it needed to be. That on top of bad walk speeds, Focus Attack fishing, and bad normals (compared to stuff like CVS2, Alpha 2, Third Strike, SFII HF). I chose to not play SFIV and play other games like KOF98.

Which in return has 1 OS that’s used, it’s a simple one too. On someone’s wake up a character can just do a one button throw. If the opponent tries to jump out, they get hit by the whiffed normal which typically Far C and Far D are usually a good poke or anti-air. How to beat this is just to tech throw, and doing that is really easy. What makes this a mix-up though is if your character has a command throw, and command throws can’t be teched. So opponents have to choose between saying on the ground to tech a throw but might eat a command throw, or jump into the air to get out but might get tagged by a normal. During block strings, this OS doesn’t mean much since opponents can alternate between high and low guard to extend block stun so command throws would whiff and normal throws become blocked normals.

OS’s are sometimes inherent to a game’s construction and are unavoidable. The important thing is that if you can prevent an OS as a video game developer, then try to do so. Sometimes they help a game’s depth and “fun value” however subjective that may be. Sometimes it eliminates depth or possible options and decision making trees to be had.

So please don’t confuse any type of buffer with an OS please. It hurts me dearly. Also I hope this explains the main SFIV OSs to people that didn’t really keep up to date with SFIV stuff. Another similar thing to jump-in anti-back dash OS is doing a DP buffer instead of a sweep buffer. So with Ryu you can blow up certain reversals, reversal back dash, and still jump-in and do a hit confirm into bnb if they get hit or block. Also if they back dashed and you’re good at confirm that DP hitting, then you can FADC that DP into Ultra. If they block or get hit, you can hit confirm and do a normal BNB or choose to use that FADC if you want.

But yeah, OS’s aren’t inherently bad and sometimes they’re unavoidable. It’s up to you to observe what “exactly it does”, how to counter it if it has counters, and if you still have fun playing the game within the context around the OS and means around it (beating it or avoiding OS situation.) OS’s are only as strong as the context of the game they’re in. I don’t like SFIV OS’s because they don’t really add to the game, but only normalize what was simple and normal in other SF games. I just want to jump in at a person and just press that, not multiple buttons or a DP buffer just so I can simply jump in at someone. The “how often” the situation occurred was really often, so I have to do it so many times.

So what I didn’t like about it was the actual execution for it, rather than for what it did. Then also I stopped playing SFIV because yeah, like I said, bad walk speeds and normals. That killed it more than the actual OSs. The need for OSs just rubbed salt into the wound.