Thanks Purbeast.
Don’t worry I’m not arguing with him, it’s ridiculous.
Frankly Tebbo you obviously and completely miss the point of this thread.
Stop asking to decrease the reversal window. That’s a giant honking sign that you don’t understand the basic design philosophy and will do more to get suggestions ignored than anything else on the list
Not gameplay related… but, I don’t like how after Ryu(maybe others too, haven’t seen their vids) does his CA, he has already recovered and he’s still saying his “Hadoooookeeeeeen”. The sound just doesn’t match the animation. The long hadoken makes it sound like it was a lot of work for Ryu, but the recovery says it wasn’t.
Look at older games like Alpha series. The voices coincide perfectly with the animations.
Just to reiterate my points in case they got lost, I think it’s a bad idea to nerf strong characters at this stage of development. Making everyone strong and focusing primarily on improving weak characters is a better philosophy than nerfing them this early in development. OP/Broken things can be easily fixed post launch, improving inherently weak characters is not so easy.
Feedback should be:
Glitches, netcode (if talking about the online beta) and general questions about gameplay regarding the use of things (is this action performing the task it appears to be designed for).
Some feedback is unrelated to the specifics of any one build of the game.
Talking about build specific things isn’t going to be very fruitful because every time we see another build, it changes again. We don’t even know all of the changes. So someone may say something is weak, but it might not be relative to that entire build since a bunch of other stuff we don’t know the specifics of has also changed.
Discussion is good. Just frame it in a way that could actually be used to ask legit questions about how the whole game is meant to fit together.
If someone has a chance they can ask things (to let’s just say Combofiend) like, “Is Birdie’s chain throw working as intended? From the limited time we’ve had with various versions of the game, it seems like not much of a deterrent against fireballs” To which he could answer, "well, it isn’t meant to be much of a deterrent but rather… Or, "it is a somewhat difficult move to use, we think this makes sense because of the strength of the move, or, "In the currently public build it is not performing quite how we intended and we are looking into it.
We have an assumption as players that we already know how everything works and was designed to be used. That’s the first mistake imo since this is a new game and we should approach things as if we know very little and then go from there. When you talk very specifically you’re already making several assumptions and I think that’s hard to respond to as a developer of a game which in which the values of things are being constantly adjusted and tested to find the sweet spot already. They can only really respond with ‘We’re working on it’ since they’re not going to have specifics set in stone yet to give you.
I’ve made my points. They are valid, they are on topic.
If you have any further problems, go see a moderator. I do not wish to engage you at this time. I would prefer if you please leave me alone, obviously you didn’t get the message from Purbeast, I have every right to say what I’ve said.
I agree with that. I just wanted to point out that Combofiend said the game should be pretty patch free for a while after it launches. Do I agree with the sudden changes? Not really but I don’t think they are as big of an issue as the issues with the fundamental part of the game that we’ve been trying to get adjusted since the beta started.
Which is what DJ cause I’m late to this discussion, what fundamental issue or issues?
Yeah I hear you on that, and I wasn’t calling you out specifically or anything.
I just mean people shouldn’t be giving people “rules” on what is allowed and not allowed to be discussed with what versions of the game, as far as feedback goes. Also using the whole “it is in beta and not final product yet so you can’t comment on it” is about as dumb of a thing you can say.
I just hope this “lets make every attack weaker” stuff isn’t going to be a reality. I really really liked in the beta how you can stun people so quickly and then land a very damaging combo to them while they are stunned. If you can open up your opponent constantly enough to stun them, you should be rewarded with being able to do a 40 or 50% damaging combo (if you have meter). You shouldn’t be “punished” like you were in SF4 for stunning someone, where a raw ultra on a stunned person could end up doing like 50 damage due to scaling.
Couldn’t agree more.
It was absolutely the most refreshing thing about SFV. Now it feels like we’re sliding back into SFIV territory and that’s not good.
Also, there’s no need to justify anything. You are more than welcome to talk about any changes that you don’t agree with or would like to see.
Well we have to assume that all suggestions have a possibility if getting ignored to begin with since it is their game.
Are you talking about the philosophy of making the game accessible? In any event, I can deal with the reversal window being wide if the other things are adjusted. I don’t think it would hurt to shorten the window either though.
I’m just trying to point out the kinds of things that we can actually really dig into, discuss and pose questions about. The things which have been stable and we have information about. These don’t include framedata, hitboxes/hurtboxes, damage, stun, etc. Since we have seen these are in flux from build to build and do not have numbers to confirm if there are even changes (already been several mistakes) and exactly what form they take (Are raw CA’s reduced? If so is it dramatic? Or is combo scaling or even just CA as part of a combo scaling different? Both? Did the hitbox change on that move or was that character’s hurtbox changed?).
Not sure why I was flagged for posting what I think good, useful feedback looks like.
I am very sorry for upsetting you.
The whole point of the wide reversal window is that reversals should be a base level decision, like blocking, jumping, or teching. There is no real benefit to making the window smaller other than forcing people to practice their reversals more which really isn’t fun. A smaller reversal window doesn’t have positive gameplay effects, especially in a hand which is bending over to make sure you don’t drop combos.
I don’t see how you can say we don’t have information about hitboxes/hurtboxes, damage or stun. Damage and stun we clearly have information about since the majority of us have put 10+ hours into the beta, which gives you hard numbers in the training mode. After playing with Ryu for at least 30+ hours over all the beta and stress tests, by watching footage of the game I have a pretty clear grasp of the damage he outputs.
Then we have all experienced and even have videos of major clipping issues going on with the hit/hurt boxes, especially on low pokers against motionless characters.
FWIW, I didn’t flag any of your posts, so as Shaggy says, it wasn’t me.
You don’t think it changes the dynamic of having to make a decision at all due to the specific timing of normals and any gap they may or may not leave? What I mean is you don’t need to be as clear on the recovery of the normals you’re blocking because you can just go for it against anything believing that your read on the opponent is correct. So it’s just a read.
I guess that is true and reversals do work that way in a sense. I’m going to provide an opposite interpretation. If I were to use your example, take jumping. Jumping itself is easy but the specific timing is what makes it challening. It’s not just a read, there is also skill in performing a jump at the right time. So if we were to make jumps more lenient like reversal timing it would look something like you can hold up and you won’t jump immediately unless your opponent throws a fireball (I know this sounds insane I am just trying to illustrate how I think a smaller reversal window can also be a good thing).
So with reversals you don’t believe there should be any skill involved except a guess based on a read? For me that removes the impact of hesitation and a bit of the emotion that quick action creates in us. A large advantage of rapid pressure full of varying attacks is that the defender feels mentally overwhelmed and is more likely to make errors in judgement. I feel like a smaller window makes that more of a factor and that’s not necessarily good or bad, just different.
What I meant is we don’t have the data from each build. If that wasn’t clear, my bad. So we have some data from different builds kind of scattered. It makes more than visceral gut reaction judgement difficult. I know what you’re saying with hit/hurtboxes and what I mean is then we get reports like ‘oh i think Ryu low forward is better’ but we don’t know if the hitbox is better, or is a hurtbox larger? Was it just that someone was using it well? To me it’s just too little real tangible data to make firm statements.
I think a better analogy, would be if you made every jumping normal 3-4F more active. It would mean you would no longer have to worry about timing your jumpins as carefully, and could then essentially beat the opponent’s a2a attempt while also being a potent a2g move.
You’re absolutely right that’s a much more clear example lol
You can jump at any time on a guess based on a read… just like how a large reversal window works. If we were to make jumps like ye old reversals you’d have to tap up the moment you recover from blockstun to dodge a tick grab!
But yes, that’s the basic design behind a high risk reversal. You make it but that hard to pull off (which is also good for preventing degenerate situations as often happened back in ST) but you get kicked in the face if they bait it.
What a small window does is just lock players out of a very important defensive mechanic unless they grind out the timing both in their own wake-up and against the hundreds of different moves out there. This is especially important if a game focuses on frametraps.
I think SFIV messed up reversals thanks to a combination of stupidly hard basic combos and massively skewedc risk/reward ratios on reversals thanks to FADC. But the basic idea of reversals being a core aspect of a character you should be able to do at will is a strong one.
That said, I do think Ryu should lose DP xx Super on block, but that’s mainly because I think it does too much damage on hit to be safe on block (and gives you damage on block in VT!)
Kind OT, but you can punish his super on block, it is no longer safe unless spaced pretty generously.
Ah, nvm then; I was having issues with it last beta but I suppose that just means find a different button. Still dumb in VT though