lol this guy thinks he’s entitled to get out of a mixup/rushdown situation at any time he wants regardless of the mistakes he made which landed him in that position in the first place.
you’d have a point if you were complaining about characters who completely bypass footsies with their command normals/specials as they can indeed be quite braindead, but fuck out of here if you think you deserve to get out of a mixup every time even though you let someone jump in on you for free/knock you down/etc
Overall I do agree that ideally a game should work where the pressure and strings should be tight. If the neutral game is strong enough you’ll have plenty of time to interact during the neutral and will just have to make that hard read once you mess up in spacing and get put in that tight string. If you have a game with interesting neutral you shouldn’t have to worry about how long you are stuck in a string when you screw up. Which if you watch most SF games with tight block strings, isn’t that long any ways. You’re usually going back to neutral pretty quickly unless it’s like a custom combo or something of that sort.
I’m just again being realistic that with how they’ve made the game already, there needs to be a plan B in case we get another game at launch with the same SFIV style airy block pressure. Which means lessening pushback on medium and heavy normals since the game is trying to deemphasize lights for pressure and combos (which overall is a good thing I think). It does still seem like after blocking a normal or two you can just start walking backwards or backdashing and avoid a low forward pretty easily. This is something Viscant brought up early during the E3 build where he said he felt it was difficult to deal with people who just wanted to move backward.
Going to list the extra changes I will be adding to the list to send out soon for the next Capcom Unity thread.
This is a list of things that we would like to see changed before release. This includes things that we believe will improve the offense and keep the game from feeling too much like SFIV where your offense is questionable or can be moved away from too easily. **These are ultimately suggestions and not demands so these are just things we think will make a more interesting game neutrally. ** Overall though it is Capcom’s game to make and while we do believe this would make the game more interesting, we still appreciate what has been done so far.
**Increase pushback of certain normals or specials that are negative on block. ** This compounds the issue of the shortage of true block strings as not only is Ryu’s c.MK to fireball unsafe on block, not a true string and doesn’t combo at max range, but also is difficult to land safely due to lack of pushblock making a punish way too easy on such a fundamental element of his gameplan. Things like sweeps and other low normals are that are 0 or unsafe tend to be difficult to use in neutral due to this.
Adjust the pushback of positive on block medium or heavy normals. The way the game is going walking or dashing backwards will still be really strong if all normals push back so far. We would like some type of offense on block where we can stay in without having to walk forward or dash after every positive on block medium or heavy normal to maintain momentum.
This makes sense for light attacks as these are meant to be lessened in emphasis, but this same heavy pushback shouldn’t be applied on the positive on block medium and heavy normals.
**Increase range of lower normal hit boxes. ** This will help the above issues so that players can feel like they are in range to poke or start a ranged pressure game without being punished or worrying about the opponent walking/dashing back and making them whiff so easily.
A reduction in the reversal window. Right now it’s still believed to about 5 frames which is still rather large for a game that has so much pushback and little block stun between normals.
Make the hurtboxes react more naturally. Right now there are still too many situations where a characters foot in idle standing or crouching animation can not be touched by low forwards and other crouching normals. A good example is when Bison is crouching and his far foot sticks way out but still can’t be touched at all by lower normals.
Possibly adjust the scaling on longer combos. The game’s scaling still seems SFIV like where the longer your combo is, the scaling gets increased at an excessive rate.
****Redo the round if there is a double KO. ****The opponent who won the first round should not get priority for a double KO. It’s an archaic design that rewards the person who got better momentum in one round too much. It also really screws up a game where both players won a round as it just considers it a draw. If this is fixed so the round is redone it is a lot less work for tournament organizers and more fair for both players as they get another round to prove themselves instead of being punished for trading at the end of a round.
Sorry I could be misinterpreting this completely, but I think this is actually backwards. The pushback on normals is really low, which makes stuff very punishable, like sweeps (even at the tip they don’t push you back enough to be safe) and cr.mk xx fireball being the prime example (even at the tip bison can cr.mp xx sk to punish, cammy can s.mk, etc.).
This was argued a bit by @ilitirit , and I think the problem is actually the lack of range on normals, particularly lows, combined with the wonky hurtboxes, that makes you feel like you have no option after a blocked s.mp for instance.
I don’t disagree at all about having blockstrings, I just like them being more limited. I’d prefer the whole system weren’t developed around them which is what has to be done if they’re links. Right now in the most current version of the game we have seen, they haven’t done this and nothing they have done or said indicates they will. So I’m not worried about it.
The target combos, like everything in the game, need to be tightened up and imo more need to be added. Target combos don’t move you forward. If the normals they use do, ok. But nothing about target combos does anything but cancel a set series of normals (which means less pushback) which can connect. It all depends on what normals are used and especially which it ends on. They can always tweak that pushback anyway based on if it was just cancelled into from a another normal.
Using throw well is going to be very important in 5.
Hmmm, that may be more of the actual problem, though i know some people have particularly complained about situations where the pushback leaves them out of range to move in. Like in particular how Ryu players talk about s.MP pushing them out so far on block that it feels really telegraphed what they can do afterwards even though that’s their main plus on block, or combo based normal. You can watch pretty much any video of a decent Ryu and see how far he gets pushed back after s.MP.
I guess I’ll get a bit more conjecture on this and change this up to be more specific if necessary. The issue might be a combination of the wrong normals pushing back too far and the wrong ones pushing back too little.
I believe it was @TheFreshPrince that brought up how s.MP pushes back too far on block even though it is. He mentioned it was plus 3 (it’s actually only plus 2) and yet still pushes back too far to really capitalize on for pressure or frame traps. I do believe he also goes into how other normals push back too far so again, I’ll get some more conjecture on this first.
I think the complete issue here then is that normals that are 0 or negative on block normally used in neutral (particularly low hitting ones) cause too little pushback making them overly punishable instead of just being at slight disadvantage or neutral.
**
Then the plus on block normals meant to start frame traps and combos push back too far. ** Which means you get this weird polarizing aspect of the stuff you use to stay in and start combos pushing you back, yet the normals you want to use to create space don’t push you back far enough. Which may be further compounded by how it is mostly the light attacks that are more than plus 2 on block. Yet these are purposely meant to pushback to be lessened in emphasis.
I guess there’s a lot going on that we need to simplify into the best way to fix.
Yeah they seem a little jumbled at the moment compared to what we might used to.
The other thing people are bothered by is the safety of low forward xx hadou. I think the unsafeness is fine frame wise, I do think the pushback is on the low end though.
SFIV comparisons aren’t really welcome here, but in that game Ryu’s cl.mp also has insane pushback. Shotos’ and Gouken’s cl.mk also have some fun hitbox interaction and people use it next to a downed opponent to gain distance and bait reversals. But on the other hand cr.mk xx hadou is pretty much always safe midscreen due to pushback and only generally punished in the corner (though it’s negative).
One thing that I’m not sure how affects it all is the different animation for blocked moves. For instance, Ryu’s sweep seems extremely punishable because his reel animation after it’s blocked seems to prevent all pushback, but I haven’t seen other sweeps that don’t have this punished as frequently (namely ken’s and chun’s).
How about stop nerfing characters when the build isn’t even a month old.
Case in point, Necalli. With his nerfs he’s gone from solid to garbage.
The philosophy should be to just make everyone strong.
Worry about the low tiers, like Nash, and improving them, and don’t worry about strong characters. A strong character is a good thing it means you done good. But weak characters like Nash are going to need fundamental work to be viable.
His Sonic Booms are horrible and he has no anti air. Why not bring back his flash kick? If you don’t want to do charge than change it to a command. That would fix him immediately IMO, and it’s silly he doesn’t have it.
Nerfs should be a last resort reserved for broken characters, otherwise you’re just doing way more work than is necessary, constantly nerfing buffing nerfing buffing trying to find a middle ground.
Keep calm and buff weak characters, nerf only when OP. Simple, easy, everyone’s happy.
Problem is since this is a beta, they can just refer to the nerfs as fixes since the game isn’t out yet and we are just helping them develop the game. I’m sure the same thing happens month to month when every other fighting game is developed, there was just no betas for us to see it.
Not that I’m completely condoning it. There have definitely been some sudden changes that probably weren’t necessary, but again I guess we can’t kill them on it since it’s not a full product yet. Combofiend did said he doesn’t want to change the game much once its out, so hopefully he holds to his word once the game launches.
I could’ve sworn that frame data sheet said it was +3, I’ll have to check back there again. The thing is, normals (other than St.MP) don’t pushback too far per se, they just feel like they do because of the gimped throw ranges. They made dumb decisions, where the Moves that are already unsafe as hell frame wise, also tend to have barely any pushback (Ryu sweep and crouch fierce come to mind). I guess a better way to stare it, would be “reduce pushback on good moves, increase it on bad moves, and make throws better”.
Yup, basically this. It’s not really that you need any more conjecture (not trying to say in the only one that matters lol), but that you need more specific examples as to why it’s bad how is currently set up.
Lol the baseline is the current build, and “nerfing” is weaking a character whereas “buffing” is making them stronger. Should I call it something else since the game isn’t out yet? Anyways. Necalli’s super art is now much weaker and does much less damage than the build prior, and his BnB combos don’t do much compared to shoto’s and others.
Anyways, like I said. The goal should be to make every character in the game strong. I’m much more worried about weak characters being too weak, like Nash and Necalli right now, versus OP stuff which can be easily patched out.
Combofiend might want the game to be flawless on release, but that’s unrealistic. If you stuck to the philosophy of making everyone strong and only nerfing broken/OP stuff, which you won’t know about until the game is in the hands of the public, then you’ll save yourself headaches and the balance will be much, much better than SF4, which was the schiozophrenically “balanced” and completely overthought, over worked fighting game in history.
Again, Combofiend said the game won’t be a patch fest like SFIV once it’s launched. He said he wants a game where players can play out the meta for once unless something is really OP.
What’s being done during the beta isn’t really something we can control since the game is an active development and they can pull that card on us there. Once the game is out it should be something stable we can play for a while without any big sweeping changes.
The characters so far seem strong and have a lot of options compared to the lower tiers in SFIV so so far we seem to be guaranteed characters that are all threatning and can do heavy damage and stun quickly. Something that too many characters were lacking in IV.
Well if you’re right DevilJin then they are following my advice which is great. I’m happy with that. I’m just saying though nerfing the damage on Necalli’s BNB and VA seems contradictory to that philosophy, but I guess we’ll see.
Have you played the build?
How long have you played it.
Do you know Necalli was ‘solid’ and is now ‘garbage’?
Do you know any character’s relative strength enough to gauge what a ‘strong’ cast looks like?
The buff don’t nerf philosophy is about things that players are invested in. When someone is invested in something (like say time spent learning a character) and then the developer weakens them, it leaves those players feeling very negative and resentful.
This is entirely irrelevant when there is no stable build of the game which anyone is consistently playing and the game is still in active development. Right now things are being tweaked, and likely tweaked a whole lot more and a lot more regularly internally. This is how you find the balance you’re talking about. Once things are released for the public in some kind of ‘final’ form and they have hundreds of thousands of manhours per character of feedback, then they can apply a don’t nerf, just buff the bottom philosophy.
You guys should really stop arguing over semantics. Who cares what terms one person is using as long as they get their point across.
Whether the game is pre-alpha/alpha/beta/development/staging/production, fact of the matter is things in the current playable build are weaker than they were in previous builds. It’s okay for people to be concerned about that and now is the time to voice those concerns.