I know we’ve already come to terms that we just love different things, but I wanted to say something about that last bit of your post.
The reason why I (and many other posters on here) like that type of offense, is because it makes me feel safe and actually want to try and attack you. If I’m constantly just fishing for CH, it makes me uncomfortable because I know that is my main option of doing damage since the throw range small and they are now 4F instead of 3F. If my offense is full of gaps, and thus unsafe, I am way more likely to play it safe and it ends up looking like a SF4 match where I’m just waiting for you to fuck up in the mid range, so I can hit you a few times then go back to the neutral. Safe offense is also good, because it puts the burden on the defender to figure out where the gaps are and how to capitalize on them. With the worse offensive tools in this game, I think it’s fair to make things more safe, since like you said, its usually a blockstring that ends up with the attacker being safe or slightly advantaged; however, they’ve done some chip or built meter, and are now in a range they want to be in. This is infinitely more interesting to me than constantly having to guess on what I should do even on the offense (where I’m supposed to have the advantage most of the time, since I’m putting myself at a risk by making the first move).
I think you need safe offense.
I just think it should be limited.
When I see the desire for totally safe offense I can’t help but feel people don’t want to actually play with their opponent. You want to run your game and try to ignore theirs as much as possible. That just seems boring and imo makes matchups potentially really lopsided. Characters who can’t do that can only play keep away/poke, things become one dimensional very quickly. Looking at 4 basically 3/4 of the cast has tricks to get in and avoid the midrange neutral game. Matches are two players sitting outside that range and then using some move to get in and then try to stay in. The other characters are all doing the opposite and somewhere in there is zangief probably the only character who has to actually work honestly to get damage.
It really is just a difference in mentality. If you come from 4 then attacking like you have to in 3S probably seems insanely risky. Coming from 3S the kind of offense in 4 just seems really dull.
Like I said I think the middle ground is target combos for gapless strings. This allows for a little bit of both because you can always cut a target combo short and follow it up with a different normal/special and your opponent needs to watch you closely to see if you’re doing that or not.
i will say that i think the throw game is going to evolve in time. so right now it feels off but that’s because people aren’t tuned in to offense and defense quite yet. throws do good damage and great stun and can’t be rolled so they keep your position. I think capcom is hesitant to improve them because probably they want to see how things stabilize first.
I think it’s important they find a middle ground regarding +frames on normals. We don’t want a situation where players can run autopilot offense with their relatively fast mid poke that leads to more pressure on block and big damage on hit or counterhit. I liked beta Nash because he could play that kind of offense but not at his ideal range. It just meant you had to be creative in finding ways in then capitalizing. Autopilot offensive pressure was one of the factors that made SFxT so ass.
On another topic: I know I shouldn’t find it funny but I’m getting serious laughs at some of these Unity posts.
Example
And the same guy was* complaining about Bison’s nose being too red* as a legitimate concern…
The idea of “wanting to feel safe” in an interactive fighting game translates to me as “I want portions of the fight where I can shut my brain off and go autopilot”.
I find it funny how people want longer combos and longer block stun in SF5. Both of these things increase the amounts of time when your opponent can’t do anything to you. Basically, people want their opponent to put down their controllers, 'cause it’s annoying when someone doesn’t just sit there and take your offense.
“Boards…don’t hit back.”
Because you CAN’T just burst through everything with light attacks and reversals. Doing those things opens you up to even more risk and damage than if you just blocked.
BTW, V-reversals lower stun. That’s what they’re for. To lower stun and push your enemy away from you before you get stunned.
The lighting on Dictator is a real concern from a visual standpoint; he’s M. Bison after all, not M. Reindeer.
True blockstrings don’t mean autopilot offense though; go play most games with chains instead of links. You get all sorts of cool offense going on that takes thought and effort.
Well, for other people maybe. I play characters like Axl and Merkava, but most people don’t have stretchy limbs
You can’t compare Guilty Gear to Street Fighter like that. Let’s take a look at defensive options in Xrd.
Just defending, burst, dead angles, faultless defense and blitz are all universal defensive options.
In SF5 we have v-reversal. That’s it and v-reversal seems to be something which has it’s uses but is not a guarantee.
Also just to be clear, target combos are chains. So there are chains in the game, that’s good.
I’m not just talking GG; Uniel really only had Shielding over SF (well, and a crappy universal reversal) and it’s offense isn’t completely braindead.
I mean, I think true blockstrings in a game with 323 DP shortcuts and auto guard are only really important as hitconfirms and against characters who can only reversal with supers or charge moves, and you can solve the hitconfirm aspect with more hitstop. SF doesn’t have the same sort of forward momentum moves that you see in anime games either which give you a choice between tight strings and staying in
I haven’t played Uniel yet, need to pick it up now that I have a ps3 stick. Melty Blood is dope, just don’t have the time to spend on it. I’ll take your word.
Pretty much you only need jab/short chains and target combos. There’s really no need for extra advantage. Every character will probably have a few normals or specials which give them a strong amount of advantage to mix into things and alter their timings and the defenders ability to anticipate gaps. I think the way moves look now is due probably to counter-hit being a flat +2. So because of that they’re trying to keep counter-hit scenarios under control. I personally would rather the focus be on the neutral game and hit/counter-hit then on making safe pressure cross cast accessible with safe linking normals. Like I have pointed out, target combos I think are the bridge for both styles and I don’t think we have seen all of them or even their final speeds, ranges, advantage, etc. That’d be my concession to people of the other style. Push for strong and useful target combos to fill the link void.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with completely and totally safe offensive strings. And if you think there is then you aren’t actually thinking.
The only problem arises when a completely safe string allows for itself to be repeated ad infinitum via low pushback or an offensive move that allows the offender to re pressure for free. That’s THE ONLY problem.
These things that people are saying like “safe strings don’t allow for play between both players” is super scrubby. The play comes before the safe string when you are neutral. Also, even though there may be safe strings that doesn’t mean that those are always the best thing to do.
In ST deejay can jumpin with an attack, land and do 2-3 cr.lp, do a completely safe st.mp then cancel into a completely safe max out. This is nowhere near overpowered. Deejay makes little chip, and forces himself out of throw range when doing this. He effectively ends his string offense and now has to poke or jump his way in again. This is generally how street fighters SHOULD work. You can do something safe… But it’s very low reward, or you can try for something higher reward… Like a tick throw, but at the cost of safety. In ST. Doing a blockstrings like the one I just said is actually really not good since you do something very low reward… After having taken a huge risk. That blockstring generally only comes from a jumpin. Jumpins are very dangerous.
Balance
There’s nothing wrong with retain forms of safety if you have intelligent people balancing the games they are making. Unfortunately the jury is still out whether the new sf5 designers actual,y know what they are doing. And judging by sf4… They don’t. Unfortunately.
It’s not matter of blockstrings being overpowered, it is about they being fun or significant.I only find true blockstrings worthy or interesting if any of the following conditions is true:
[list=1]
[] There is no autoblock, so there’s the actual chance of opening the opponent if he presses buttons.
[] There is guard crush, so after the string has ended, I have accomplished something by depleting his defense bar.
[*] I have done a good amount of chip damage.
[/list]
There’s also the benefit of gaining EX meter, but that usually requires to be done several times and then becomes repetitive (think Yun’s target combo in SF4: that’s how a offense based on safe blockstrings actually looks like).
Supposedly SF5 brings chip damage on normals, but so far the amount of damage dealt seems to be so little that a single hit from the opponent probably gives him the life lead back, so for practical purposes nothing of the above is true. Now before you tell me that is precisely the point of safe defense, I’m talking about the beginning of the offense where you have to approach him in order to start the string: it is still a risk and the defender usually has the advantage: the attacker loses on the long run if fending him off with a poke or AA deals full damage and only a little chip is dealt if the offender manages to get close, perform the blockstring and reset the situation to neutral. If the blockstrings are low reward, why bother? It’s my impression that true blockstrings being the go-to option is a symptom of a lack of anything better to do at close range, and then the game becomes “my blockstring-back to neutral-your turn-your blockstring-back to neutral-my turn”.
Of course, offense with gaps feels dumber to perform than a full distance projectile against parries if the reversal window is so big the opponent can mash DPs or Ultras with eyes closed and the move still comes out and beats the pressure. True blockstrings are needed in that case, but then they feel like a duct tape remedy made to dance around the fact the designers just can’t let go those ridiculous 5f windows.
As @Dime_X stated having some safe offense isn’t the end all of the interaction between players its also not getting you much it’s just an additional option but having that additional option helps a lot. Often to perform a true block string you end up pushing yourself out of range of being a threat for a counterhit or throw. Pushing two players out to the range of neutral again returns the game to where you can play a game of whiff punish / poking into special/super.
Having a true block string also doesn’t remove frame traps, if anything it strengthens it. You now have the option to push yourself out to neutral OR you can put in a gap to try and catch them mashing or simply go for some stagger pressure which will likely push you back out to the range the defender feels safe after only ~2-3 blocked mids or 1 heavy - mid string. Without a true block string you’ve become more limited in your options as an attacker and the defender knows where the gaps are and what to look for making blocking safer.
In SF3 you also always had the threat of a parry, every time the opponent blocked one of your attacks they knew that you could be prepared to parry anything they try and do. Plus SF3 had kara throws with decent range allowing for true block string lights to push you into a safe range to make stuff whiff but leave you in range for a quick step forward into kara throw. Kara throws are gone in SF5, and if their other design decisions with things like heavily weakening the OS game, adding combo input buffers, and them emphasizing the ease of using V-Skills/Trigger thanks to only 2 button inputs, I think we can assume Kara’s aren’t coming back.
I wanted to make a statement on the blockstrings, but I figured I’d let some opinions about it roll out first.
Ideally, I just don’t see anything wrong with tight block strings. Especially in a game where most specials are negative on block any ways. Like Dime said, at some point if you actually want to open the opponent up you have to cut it short and go for a throw or overhead or something that won’t create a true string.
Then let’s say there is the realistic situation that Capcom continues to make gaps in all the block strings. I say the best situation there is to make sure that at bare minimum there is much less pushback during block strings and reduce the actual window to reverse a bit. That way even if there is gaps, the opponent at least has the ability to stay in after a plus normal and it’s not a constant battle of having to walk in after every blocked normal. I believe liked said above that white chip on normals and small throw ranges (even though they have small tech windows) aren’t enough to keep the basic, non v trigger offense from being rather limited.
As it is now the offense/blocking is pretty clear to be a slightly less shitty than SFIV situation at best. Heavy pushback, little block stun and still wide reversal windows is still too much of what made SFIV’s close game so boring. I guess the main differences/fixes in SFV being shorter tech windows and non attack invincible backdashes (but still throw invincible which doesn’t help with short throw ranges).
TBH I could do with the block strings not being true as long as something like above is fulfilled. The game can not release on launch with almost no true block strings, heavy pushback and wide reversal windows topped on with short throw ranges. The game is guaranteed to not be the offensive game they want (other than V Trigger shenanigans) if it is like this on launch.
We have blockstrings. Is everyone assuming what’s in the game now represents every target combo a character will have?
The problem with what we’ve had to play around with is that pushback is actually too small for the lack of safety on many moves. So the range of usefulness is super slim. It seems like a holdover from SF4 that they’re working out. A linked move is a completed move, you get FULL pushback off each hit. Target combos avoid this because they’re cancels so you can make a normal have sufficient pushback to make it safe to a degree, but as part of a tc it pushes back nowhere near as far.
Look at Ryu’s standing strong and how odd it is. This is because of linking. They gave it huge advantage but they don’t want people being able to connect another on block so they pushback makes it stupid on block.
These styles are at odds with one another. If you want a variety of different timing links available you need smaller pushback. If you don’t want tons of links, you need larger pushback to make those normals more safe. Target combos solve all of those problems and allow both safe blockstrings and less safe non-linking normals.
Kara throws being ditched doesn’t mean throws will be the same range. Most likely they’ll be tuned per character to something that works well with their suite of normals.
I never thought blockstrings got rid of frametraps. I didn’t even imply that. What I did say is when there are lots of gaps of varying amounts it’s more active for the defender.
With true blockstrings what you’re saying is as the defender i’m supposed to do something with 1-4 frame gaps that you intentionally leave? How exactly? It’s a total guess. You just decide when to stop pressuring and I had to have already made my guess, either keep blocking or reversal. When you don’t have a multitude of blockstrings what happens is I can learn the moves that can connect at different ranges and know what you can and cannot squeeze in when. So I can actually make a read and an educated guess. Because I can see what you just did and then know you only have 2 options to connect after that, and maybe one of them I can definitely beat with a reversal I have. Now I have some info to make a decision with.
Who said anything about “overpowered”? It’s not a matter of being overpowered or not. It’s about the type of game they want to present.
Do they want a game where people are just mashing jab “2-3 times into a completely safe mp into a completely safe special” for every hit confirm? Meanwhile, my only option on defense is “watch out for the throw”. Sorry, but that’s not engaging for me. Doing 5 straight uninterrupted moves in a row with no fear of retaliation is not particularly exciting. Personally, I like games where both players have their “my controller does nothing” time limited.
Shorter block stun (but still definite frame advantage) introduces a more prominent frame trap mind game for both offense AND defense, which I enjoy. Make block strings more air tight, and that game is either lessened or eliminated.
Long, true blockstrings are not overpowered. They’re just not very interesting.
Yeah, this is just one of those things you either agree with or don’t. I like safe blockstrings, because since I, the attacker, am putting myself at risk by going in and making the move, I think I should have some time to do what I want as long as it’s not plain stupid (divekicks or full screen moves that lead into pressure). Dime_x is right, why should I have to be constantly guessing as the attacker (the one putting their self at risk) to do any damage at all? There should be a choice: if I want to be safe, I should be able to visually confirm this is the right option, and be able to do a little bit of real damage (not gay ass recoverable health) as long as it puts be back at a space where I am both safe, and the defender gets some breathing room; if I want a big payoff, I should have to choose between normals that STILL HAVE ADVANTAGE, but don’t leave me in completely safe position.
Not being able to choose between these options is a bad thing, and its why in SF4 (where this was also a problem although to a lesser extent) the characters at the top, were the ones that could largely bypass the “being unsafe” portion. Give everyone these options (except for divekicks, I can’t tell you how much I hate those) and you now have an equally active game, though it will be more SF2-like where it’s more about controlling space and not getting into those positions in the first place. This creates a more neutral heavy game, which I thought was the direction they wanted to go in.
It’s cool that I have to guess to open the opponent up, but to guess smartly I need data first and that’s where blockstrings come in.
If it’s the first time I’m playing someone, I’ll do stuff like cr.lp, cr.lk, cr.lp to space back out. If the cr.lk hits, he’s either stand teching, mashing or backdashing and I’ll look out for that next time I’m in. I’ll do cr.mk xx fireball and see what he does afterward, whether he’s jump happy, he likes running away, he imediately presses a button, etc. The distance let’s me watch what he likes to do.
But without blockstrings I’m completely in the dark from the start. I make someone block my + normal and I have to decide on the spot whether he’s throw happy or a masher. And if I pick wrong I’m actually eating damage which is stupid and put in an unfavorable position. At this point I’d rather never attack and just throw out my random 60-80 damage normals yay.
Seriously, it’s really sad to see ken and ryu be punished after any normal xx fireball poke.
I’ve already made a rant this week about my distaste for how the offense in SF4 works, so I’ll just point to that and say that I don’t want to see a similar situation again. I don’t think that sort of offense is fun, and I enjoy the player interactions that happen when safe-but-scary offense is an option far more than the ones where a mashed reversal could happen at any moment. And that’s the case both when I am the attacker and the defender. I think identifying and taking advantage of a hole in an offensive sequence is far more satisfying when my opponent had the option of not leaving the gap there at all.
As long as there aren’t loopable safe blockstrings all over (ST Fei Long looping s.HP xx Chickenwing comes to mind), I’d rather have the option to keep offense air-tight and strong, but have a safety valve that allows you to blow out of the offense if you don’t want to deal with it, at the cost of some resources. SFV already has a mechanic for that in the V-reversal.
Without refuting others points…lets just look at it this way:
Having to have gaps in your blockstrings is good for defense. It IS NOT good for offense because the offense doesn’t have a choice. This WEAKENS OFFENSE. Which some people like.
However if characters the choice between safe blockstrings that push them out… Then they also have the choice for UNSAFE blockstrings.
In other words, safe blockstrings make the game more dynamic as far as options are concerned when it comes to offense. This isn’t 3s or even A2 or 3 if your opponent makes you block a jumpin… You made a big mistake. It isn’t just a mixup cause of parry, or a mixup cause of custom activate to go through anti airs. Having to block a blockstring or be subjected to a mixup cause you neglected to AA is your punishment for getting outplayed. This is streetfighter at its most fundamental core.
As far as the guy saying “how do I know when they will throw me if they can just jab out forever with no obvious string gaps”
Um, dude, it’s called reading the opponent. Deejay jumps at you and makes you block jhk. Then he lands and throws you. Next time… You know where he throws.
It really is that simple. And yes if he’s a decent player he can mix it up to be after any assortment of jabs or whatnot. But most players don’t mix that up well, and even the ones that do… You have to FAIL at doing your job in the first place in order to allow them the opportunity at that mixup. So if you don’t like being on the end of that mixup… AA better and they won’t easily be able to put you in that shitty situation, learn better footsies and they won’t be able to easily dash in and put you into that shitty situation. You don’t need the game to hold your hand to tell you where the blockstrings end, nor do you need the game to give you easy defensive breakout points via gapped offense just because you have neglected fundamental play and couldn’t hold your ground.
You got outplayed end of story. It happens to all of us and the answer is “git gud”
And as far as why that same sense can’t be applied to leaving gapped offense in and adjusting to your opponents reversal attempts:
Because the situation is forced on the attacker which weakens offense and makes people only want to do at most 2 hit moves and not jumpin since the reward for jumping in is much lower.
Because it takes options away rather than giving more options.
Because it allows shittier fundamentals via not properly punishing people via situation for not having good footsies ability or AA ability.
Because it allows people to defend without necessarily having a read.
SF3 also had Universal Overheads and A3 had guardbreak both ways to get around overly defensive players. Options not in SF5 and the option that IS in, white health chip, doesn’t apply to chained lights and is frankly a very very weak aspect of the game at the moment.
If you want to use target combos for true block strings the problem is that they do the opposite of what you want. Target combos move you forward rather than pushing you out to a position you can make a reversal whiff or counter poke and for the most part in SF5 they seem to be unsafe. I think Nash has one two hit TC that is safe.
Lastly, you will always have a gap if the opponent goes for a throw. You can’t throw someone on the same frame they leave blockstun so there will always be a space that you can insert a DP if they try to go for that throw.
