So if I dash up in your face you are always going to throw? You go for throw I go for jab, if our timing was identical the jab wins but you input throw so it’s going to be a counter-hit… If Ryu counter-hits with jab he can go into whatever. Counter-hits mind you. Obviously you’re not going to do that always.
I think counter-hit makes being defensive pretty scary honestly. Once people are using counter-hit to put stuff together that they cannot otherwise, you’re not going to want to just throw out shorts to stop a throw when the throw is less scary then what can happen to you if you’re counter-hit.
You’re going to let people in because you don’t want to give your opponent the ability to confirm a link into something they couldn’t do normally.
No one yet has said that light > medium links on counter-hit don’t exist in the most current playable build, just normal hit.
@“DevilJin 01”
I really think you should rephrase things. This shouldn’t be about trying to steer capcom because that isn’t going to work. It should be a list of general questions about why things appear to work how they do at present. Like with normals, is it just that the animations don’t reflect the tweaking going on? Not, hey capcom you’re stupid why are normals’ hitboxes so shitty? make them gooderer.
i was afraid they’d chicken out on the damage. also really scared about block stun and the easy buffer/input combination for reversals. safe block strings weren’t a huge deal in older games because reversaling between a broken string was incredibly hard to time.
now because of the casual stuff, they need to make pressure with normals a little safer by increasing block stun on medium and heavy attacks. push back is good if mobility is good. makes it safer without increasing block stun so much but with slow walk/dash, it just makes the game go nowhere.
meh, i already lost hope in Capcom with how the SF4 series progressed so i’m not expecting much outta V. you lose so much of what was fun about fighters in order to get more people who aren’t interested in these games to play them and increase the player base. it’s not worth the sacrifice if you no longer find the games interesting.
-The crush counter state after a whiffed reversal should be removed, but since each type of dragon punch has a different part of invincibility. It would be better to have the crush counter state play a role during start up. So if one starts high, a crush counter that hits there would get the crush counter state, another move that beats mid’s and so on. That way the risk/reward the defender isn’t so skewed towards the opponents afterwards.
-Keep the big damage from the E3/Gamescom build. It made playing footsie feel very intense because of the fear of eating big damage.
-Some of the idle hurtboxes such as chun-li’s should be moved forward to match the animation. As of now it is a bit misleading to know where you have to hit an idle opponent.
Reduce reversal window to 2f. If not, then get rid of invencible meterless reversals WITHOUT exception. If a single character has access to them, then there are invencible reversals un the game, and the character in question is likely to become high tier.
I doubt a single one poster here really wants 5f window yet again. It should be insisted as much as the walkspeed increase.
I don’t think those two are mutually exclusive.
3S is not really a challenging game to do stuff in. It has very consistent inputs (2xqcf, 360s for supers). No FADC crap. Most links are relatively generous and limited to supers and some specials.
Reversal window needs to be shortened. Low advantage normals are good because it means you do have gaps. In a game where you have tons of gaps, but where counter-hitting is meaningful in how it changes your options for linking it just makes sense. Gaps mean more back and forth and more creativity is possible. Gaps suck when you can be off by 1/2 a second with your shoryu and it still comes out if they leave some space.
@Tebbo I really would like Capcom to look about doing some of these changes, but I’ll just post a disclaimer in the unity thread saying that these are just suggestions rather than demands. Even in the game’s current state I like it a lot better than SFIV, but working towards the best game possible that has more of the fundamental elements of the older games and not just a more honest SFIV would be nice.
I’ll update the first post with some of the other suggestions. After a few days I’ll post up again on Capcom Unity and then probably do this again after the second beta phase is played out.
you’re right that they don’t have to be one or the other, but i don’t see them changing the reversal window anytime soon, especially since fighters are getting more and more online heavy.
i wasn’t trying to give the impression that everything must string together in block situations, just that medium and heavy normals should be a little more safe on block. not all of them but enough of them so you don’t jump in and always go for a crouch jab/short to keep your offense.
That’s true. It seems obvious that 5 is being developed to work well online. Which is totally fine by me since the alternative is a game that mostly falls apart when played over the internet.
I guess then maybe the buffer? The input buffer when blocking or something.
As for normals and all that, I don’t know really. I have to imagine if you do a deep jump in you have plenty of time to get a strong or even fierce out with some kind of safety.
I just really, really don’t want a game where offense is always buildings from the same stuff. Target combos are kind of allowing for that sort of play they’re just restricted so the whole rest of the system isn’t messed up.
When normals are safe but only barely, it leaves gaps in strings. When that’s the norm there are lots of chances for both players to gain advantage or screw themselves. That’s a lot more interesting and fun than sitting in blockstun for 3 seconds while they finish pushing themselves out with an airtight string. As long as nothing like that is possible (outside TCs) then I don’t really care what the specifics are.
Most of the concerns seems to be addressed here. Another concern i have is the lack of combo variety and options, don’t want the game to become to repetitive and stale in combos.
More normals and specials/Ex specials to be V-trigger cancelable Except Inv moves.
1- Create a bit more freedom and combo variety.
2- More interesting neutral game where you convert damage from non cancelable pokes.
3- Certain characters might help them combo into their v-skill like chun li.
4- Helps bit in a spectating standpoint.
I was actually thinking of that. I see alot of “true air tight block strings” How airtight are we talking here? 1F? 2F? 3F? Or No frames. If it’s no frames I don’t want those in.
Right. I’m not a psycho I don’t need stuff to be so loose there is no momentum but if you leave space all the time, it just makes defense that much more active. When you don’t it’s just like ok i’ll just block since you’re doing your shit until you’re safe…
Yo @“DevilJin 01” One thing I have been hoping for, and something maybe other people haven’t thought of yet but would also agree with, different hit fx for counter-hits. I know the reaction of the character being hit is more dramatic, but I would really like to see a different color or something on counter-hit, or a much different sound. Something so a moment after it happens you know and can take advantage.
True block strings by definition is a block string with no gaps. So say a move is +4F on block then a 3F or 4F startup move would be a true block string.
Why would you NOT want a true block string in the game? Can you actually provide a detailed thought out reasoning why not having true block strings is good? Keep in mind, in every SF game in history barring possibly this one, if some rumors are to be believed, a chained light attack into itself is a true block string.
I 100% agree with having a different hit effect for counterhits. IIRC this is actually done in some other games. They added a different hit effect with an attack is absorbed by armor (I think it’s like a pink color now?) so I see no reason for such an important part of the game to not use different color hit sparks when it’s a counter hit. Maybe like a bright green hit spark to differentiate it from the colors being used usually (Pink for armor, yellow/orange for standard hitsparks, blue/red/purple for different types of fire like the fireballs or Bison’s psychopower. Green would really stand out.
This was actually something I and @TheFreshPrince were going to implement in our SF4 mod that we kind of stopped working on after getting bored with SF4.
[quote=“d3v, post:57, topic:176376”]
As most people know though, idle animations hurt boxesare typically smaller than the blocking hurt boxes for most characters, chun is often an exception due to that forward leg. The thing is, if it’s universal the size of idle animation hurt boxes, is that a bad thing? We’ve seen the problems that occur when hurt/hit boxes are made to follow the models exactly. If it’s universal than you don’t need to worry that your followup might miss since she probably pulls her leg inward when she is hit low. Plus this likely only affects her idle stance, when she walks she doesn’t keep her forward leg that far out so it would reduce the width of her hurtbox by removing that extra bit in the front.
I can see some good and some bad about this. It does make hitboxes appear worse, however I think that using her as the dummy to show that hit boxes are bad is disingenuous as it probably is just her idle animation doesn’t match up with the size of her hurt box. Do it vs Ryu and it’d probably look much better. On the actual negative aspect it is misleading to the eye to have that part of her body not be hittable and leads to easy confusion on why your attack whiffed.
Yeah I don’t get as well why there shouldn’t be true blockstrings.
What are V-Reversals and white chip on everything there for, if you can bust through everything with light attacks and reversals?
A chain of jab/shorts is not the same as jabs/shorts that link into themselves. They don’t chain in 5 they link. Or if this is what a chain feels like in 5, wow that feels terrible.
I don’t think anyone is bothered by chained jabs and shorts.
My completely obvious and unabashed third strike perspective on gapless blockstrings is they suck ass, simplify offense and make defense more passive and a lot less interesting. It’s fine if they exist just keep them limited to target combos so if you want that kind of gapless pressure you can’t do it however you want, you are limited, that’s the trade off.
The real issue seems to be pushback on blocked attacks is too small and then weird things like ryu’s standing strong being the reverse specifically because of it’s high advantage on block/hit.
Throws are 4 frames, ex shoryu is 3 frames, jabs are 3 frames… Gaps are OK. Counter-hit and the way it opens up new pathways damage wise due to linking will make you very hesistant to try and reversal. Let’s say I do low strong, you then decide to reversal as it’s recovering, I do jab. jab wins, it’s a counter-hit as Ryu I can now link into basically anything that reaches.
That sounds infinitely more interesting and interactive than poke, +5, he dashed in, jabjabjabstrongfierceroundhouse uhp he’s out of range and safe. repeat.