Improvements/Concerns for post Gamescom build for Capcom Unity *now on unity forums*

[DevilJin_01]

I don’t understand why dragon punch recovery is made even more vulnerable.
Dp’s aren’t super powerful in this game anyways and are the most punishable thing in the game right now.

So at what point as a developer to you say: "Well look a blocked dragon punch results in a full punish, let’s make them eat even more damage!"
Seriously, what the fuck?
Seems like they just added this for the sake of having Crush Counters relevant in the game.

The whole counterhit system in SFV is kind of dumb anyways. You mostly trade on your “blockstrings” and get most counterhits from mashing lights yourself.
I wouldn’t mind them reviewing the frame data on their mediums and if Crush Counters really add anything to the game in their current form.

I agree with this. It does seem rather knee jerk and in a way like a Sesame Street style teaching to newer players to not mash their DPs. “Don’t mash that DP when they’re prepared to block/backdash or eat BIG damage”. I feel people can be taught to not mash DPs without having a system around it, but if the end result is scrubs mashing DPs less and making attempts to block and figure out situations, that would be nice.

It’s just at the same time these are more things that would be more wholesomely fixed with heavier block stun that creates true block strings on mediums or heavies.

[TheFreshPrince]

Just gonna repost my Ryu breakdown from the GD thread since I’m too lazy to state everything I think is wrong with the game again. While it is mostly about Ryu, it did a good job of inferring what is systematically wrong with the game. I will edit this post later, or perhaps make a new one that adds exactly what I would fix and non final ideas on how to go about with them.

Street Fighter V Lounge "We on South Central crack addict status"

Like I said, I don’t think Ryu is bad at all (the beta is surprisingly well balanced in that regard, though it is only 6 characters) I just think all the other characters are better so far. You have to work really hard with Ryu, since IME everyone had better normals than him, and his fireball is negated in many different ways. I already said what I had to about Denjin, but since this is the last time we’ll get to play this version of the build,I can’t tell you guys to test it and it most likely wouldn’t matter anyway since it’s outdated. In theory, he has the most amount of potential thanks to the variety of ways parry can be implemented, but unlike 3S, afaik there is no way to OS parry, and it leaves you in an extremely vulnerable CH state for a good while.

So he gets out footsied, his fireballs aren’t as good as they used to be for a number of reasons (including less damage, pushback, blockstun, and numerous SF4 style projectile invincible moves) and his parry isn’t as good as it should be to make up for the rest of his “nerfs” (im comparing to the games he had good normals and zoning in).

So now what is he supposed to do? His walkspeed is only slightly faster than SF4 (this is bad), his dash is admittedly pretty good, but he doesn’t have the options afterwards to make it scary, and I’ll explain why. So his cr.mk (main poke in almost every game) had gimped range, which means you have to be closer to land it; which leads into the problem of Hado being so negative with bad pushback, because now that you have to be close to land cr.mk, your main poke for controlling space/building meter/doing chip is now unsafe at a lot of the ranges that cr.mk will hit (this doesn’t even take into account that cr.mk only does 50 fucking damage.) So now I’m forced to use either sweep (which is super unsafe thanks to almost zero pushback, does only 90 damage, little to no pressure thanks to it’s recovery and the range it leaves you at, and to top it off the opponent has 3 different options on wakeup to make YOU guess on how to approach.) Or St.MP/cr.MP which don’t hit low, so the opponent is less afraid to walk around, so now I’m inclined to hit more buttons to control space, but I’m more likely to whiff since they are less afraid to walk around and my walkspeed isn’t that great.

Now, lets say you successfully get in and try to start playing how they supposedly designed him. Cr.lk -> cr.lk chain isn’t even a true blockstring, so they can mash something and potentially beat you, which gives then even less of a reason to block low. Now my options are throw, St.MP for advantage, parry that is super punishable on a bad read, overhead, or EX tatsu to blow up a low or throw attempt.

St.mp is +3 on block, but what they don’t yell you, is that it leaves you so far away that you have NO true blockstrings! Now my only option is to cancel into a special, or go for frametraps/parry/throw/EX Tatsu.

EX tatsu is way less useful than it was in SF4 for 2 reasons. 1: the removal of crouch tech indirectly nerfed it, since now It’s not as successful when going for frame traps, and I can’t combo into Ultra for good damage in the corner. 2: since throws are slower, people are not inclined to throw out jabs on defense because it can counter both throw and normals you try to stick out since the blockstun is so low, and most of the jabs fucking beat EX Tatsu.

Because of short throw range, most of the time I will have to dash throw, which I have been able to react to most of the time. I can dash EX Tatsu to blowup the tech attempt, and idk how unsafe it is on block, but Iirc Is punished by Chun super before.

Frametraps are again nerfed thanks to the absence of crouch tech, and everytime that are blocked, I’m pushed way back out to the neutral, where against most characters I lose.

Since there is way less reason to block low, overhead is effectively useless, and even if I do hit them with it, is not like I’m getting a damaging combo after it is anything.

Now I’m left with my final option; parry, which isn’t as good as most think. You ALWAYS have to ride out there while recovery animation, unless you cancel it into another parry, which leaves you in the exact same position or worse. Now it can only be used against slow moves that are normally safe, or on a hard read against something like a sweep (which you could probably punish on block anyway).

See how this games design decision so far imply that defensive play is the way to go? Why should I attack, when everything I do is either unsafe or not really worth the effort?

[d3v]

Hitboxes need to be made better. Especially for low forwards. Right now, the whole foot can be touching the opponent and it won’t register a hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oSMM6tMDQk

[killthevibe]

I’ve already made several posts on Capcom Unity itself about my issues with the game, but I just want to say that I have very, very little hope that Capcom will address all these problems. Going by SF4’s history I’d say we can expect them to implement an extremely half-assed fix to maybe one or two of the major problems listed here. The rest of the game will still be severely flawed by release.

:s

[DevilJin_01]

I’ve already made several posts on Capcom Unity itself about my issues with the game, but I just want to say that I have very, very little hope that Capcom will address all these problems. Going by SF4’s history I’d say we can expect them to implement an extremely half-assed fix to maybe one or two of the major problems listed here. The rest of the game will still be severely flawed by release.

:s

Well if we were going by SFIV’s history the game would still have invincible backdashes, lights that go into full combos, super/ultra versions of the game and no rollback netcode. Luckily it seems like they’re making a push to add these things like input based button checks and the ability to only buy teh content you want to buy post release. They have been listening to the how hard knockdowns slow down the flow of the matches and have removed them outside of supers or other very specific things which immediately gives the game a more old school feel.

It’s easy to just assume they will just go with the game they have, but we definitely deserve to push a game that like @ilitirit said, isn’t just slightly better SFIV. We should get a game that has tighter pressure like the older games where you don’t have to worry about your best low poke whiffing when it should hit and being having plus normals that push you back and defeat the purpose of being plus. A game like that could even do with these short throw ranges, but all of that on top of the short throw ranges is still out of line compared to the older games. The pressure is a step up from all of the things you could do to get away from it in SFIV, but is still a bit soft and allows too many spots to walk or backdash away.

[Eternal]

I edited my original post a bit to add some more reasoning behind some of my suggestions.

[ilitirit]

Regardless of whatever I’ve posted here and elsewhere, I maintain that the proof is always in the pudding. If the game is fun, then I don’t really care about anything else. However, a fun game doesn’t necessarily mean it will be a good competitive game. And even if it is a good competitive game, it won’t guarantee longevity. Therefore, my number one request to Capcom is to evaluate the game in that light. Look at games that have survived for a long time competitively and have a passionate fanbase, and try to understand why that is so. Then check - honestly - if SFV meets that criteria*. If it doesn’t (and IMO a lot of the information posted that on here will show this), then fix the game.

EDIT:
*I concede this is not an easy thing to do, because from casual observation, one of the things that sets good games apart from bad ones is the lack of complaints about mechanics. Basically, you’re far more likely to hear people complain that Chun is a bad matchup for Oro than normals trade too often, or anti-air’s fail, or crouch tech is too strong etc. To put that into context, look at the main complaints about SFV so far - walk speeds are too slow, throw ranges are too short, there is too little frame advantage on block etc etc. These are all things that relate to the mechanics of the game, which IMO is a bad sign.

[Duaie]

People are still judging the game with obsolete parameters I see. Remember when people complained about Wesker’s slow walkspeed in MvC3? And how irrelevant it turned out to be?

It’s just so obvious that this game is designed around dashes instead of walking, I’m surprised people are still not seeing it. And no, it’s not a bigger commitment if the entire game is designed around it. In SF4, dashing didn’t work because of slower dashes, different hitboxes on normals, different speed, generally safer, smaller commitment pokes, etc.

There’s also the fact that in SF4, the dashing animations were substantially different than in SFV: in SF4, they were a quick movement at the start with some recovery at the end, while in SFV it’s a slightly slower traveling speed but with no recovery at the end, which makes it harder to react to.

I think the concept of tick throws is going to evolve into dash throw. Hell the entire game is going to revolve around dashing, but people are still not seeing it and still trying to play it as if it was their favourite game to see if it works. Just watch the latest WSO session, and see for yourself.

[DevilJin_01]

People complained about Wesker’s walk speed? Don’t remember that being a thing. Especially not for a game revolving around dashing and air movement.

Not sure how strong purely relying on dash throw is gonna be at high level. It’s not like Marvel where you can cancel the active frames of your dash into a button/throw.

[ilitirit]

I think the concept of tick throws is going to evolve into dash throw. Hell the entire game is going to revolve around dashing, but people are still not seeing it and still trying to play it as if it was their favourite game to see if it works. Just watch the latest WSO session, and see for yourself.

I think one thing that you are missing is that many of us actually have played (and still play!) games where dash -> throw is a thing. But, in those games tick -> throw is also a thing. So are block strings. And good walkspeed. And decent normals.

It’s not like people just decided to complain about random, out-of-context issues…

[caliagent_3]

Re-introducing SF4 style throw ranges into this game will bring back a lot of issues that were present in that game. Right now throws are very very strong, similar to SFxT, they do not need to be changed.

[purbeast]

I think that the reason as to why they took off the huge damage on Supers were mainly due to they wanted to avoid stuff like this which potentially happen too frequently

https://youtu.be/p2oRxqsSfY0?t=75

Damage outside of supers remains to be same though

What “stuff” are you referring to that they are trying to avoid? Nothing in that video was obvious to me that it should make moves do less damage.

[Maxman]

I think that the reason as to why they took off the huge damage on Supers were mainly due to they wanted to avoid stuff like this which potentially happen too frequently

https://youtu.be/p2oRxqsSfY0?t=75

Damage outside of supers remains to be same though

What “stuff” are you referring to that they are trying to avoid? Nothing in that video was obvious to me that it should make moves do less damage.

that Crush Counter combo(SPS>cr.HPxx HP DP xx Shinku) that landed the huge damage on the Charlie Dude online

[purbeast]

I think that the reason as to why they took off the huge damage on Supers were mainly due to they wanted to avoid stuff like this which potentially happen too frequently

https://youtu.be/p2oRxqsSfY0?t=75

Damage outside of supers remains to be same though

What “stuff” are you referring to that they are trying to avoid? Nothing in that video was obvious to me that it should make moves do less damage.

that Crush Counter combo(SPS>cr.HPxx HP DP xx Shinku) that landed the huge damage on the Charlie Dude online

I don’t see anything wrong with that at all. If you get yourself into a situation where you can use your full super meter to guarantee damage, you should be rewarded with big damage.

[Maxman]

I think that the reason as to why they took off the huge damage on Supers were mainly due to they wanted to avoid stuff like this which potentially happen too frequently

https://youtu.be/p2oRxqsSfY0?t=75

Damage outside of supers remains to be same though

What “stuff” are you referring to that they are trying to avoid? Nothing in that video was obvious to me that it should make moves do less damage.

that Crush Counter combo(SPS>cr.HPxx HP DP xx Shinku) that landed the huge damage on the Charlie Dude online

I don’t see anything wrong with that at all. If you get yourself into a situation where you can use your full super meter to guarantee damage, you should be rewarded with big damage.

I don’t either

I am just stating my reasoning as to why they would do that

[purbeast]

I think that the reason as to why they took off the huge damage on Supers were mainly due to they wanted to avoid stuff like this which potentially happen too frequently

https://youtu.be/p2oRxqsSfY0?t=75

Damage outside of supers remains to be same though

What “stuff” are you referring to that they are trying to avoid? Nothing in that video was obvious to me that it should make moves do less damage.

that Crush Counter combo(SPS>cr.HPxx HP DP xx Shinku) that landed the huge damage on the Charlie Dude online

I don’t see anything wrong with that at all. If you get yourself into a situation where you can use your full super meter to guarantee damage, you should be rewarded with big damage.

I don’t either

I am just stating my reasoning as to why they would do that

Yeah I hear ya. I hope that the fact that there seems to be pretty much universal agreement on certain aspects of the engine, that it will actually have any effect on Capcom changing stuff.

While I know people giving these opinions are the very vast vocal minority, it seems that everyone who IS giving feedback is in agreement.

I haven’t read one person talk about how walk speed is too fast or that damage is too strong, so I guess that is a positive thing that the only direction they can go is making things faster and more damage.

Although, they already have reduced damage so wtf do I know.

[Maxman]

I think that the reason as to why they took off the huge damage on Supers were mainly due to they wanted to avoid stuff like this which potentially happen too frequently

https://youtu.be/p2oRxqsSfY0?t=75

Damage outside of supers remains to be same though

What “stuff” are you referring to that they are trying to avoid? Nothing in that video was obvious to me that it should make moves do less damage.

that Crush Counter combo(SPS>cr.HPxx HP DP xx Shinku) that landed the huge damage on the Charlie Dude online

I don’t see anything wrong with that at all. If you get yourself into a situation where you can use your full super meter to guarantee damage, you should be rewarded with big damage.

I don’t either

I am just stating my reasoning as to why they would do that

Yeah I hear ya. I hope that the fact that there seems to be pretty much universal agreement on certain aspects of the engine, that it will actually have any effect on Capcom changing stuff.

While I know people giving these opinions are the very vast vocal minority, it seems that everyone who IS giving feedback is in agreement.

I haven’t read one person talk about how walk speed is too fast or that damage is too strong, so I guess that is a positive thing that the only direction they can go is making things faster and more damage.

Although, they already have reduced damage so wtf do I know.

People who aren’t used to high damage complain about it

I still think that Damage outside of supers remains unaffected though, was going through the Twitch Archive of the Top 8 tourney and boy do R Mika and Ryu freaking hurt

Also i think that after looking at WSO session, it seems that dashing forward > throwing is now gonna be a thing
I love that ,

[otori]

[quote=“d3v, post:23, topic:176376”]

Hitboxes need to be made better. Especially for low forwards. Right now, the whole foot can be touching the opponent and it won’t register a hit.

[/quote]

Do you know the dummy configurations in this video? Was it set to all block?

[TheFreshPrince]

The thing with dash throw, is if my normals/frame traps/tic throws aren’t that scary, then you are going to have no problem reacting to the dash throw one you get used to it. You wanna know why dash Karakusa works so often in 3S/SF4? Because Makoto has a lot of other tools that make you shit yourself, so you’re hesitant to really press buttons which makes dash throw way stronger.

If the game stays similar to how it is now, I guarantee people will stop getting hit by cash yellow so often within weeks.

[Duaie]

The thing with dash throw, is if my normals/frame traps/tic throws aren’t that scary, then you are going to have no problem reacting to the dash throw one you get used to it. You wanna know why dash Karakusa works so often in 3S/SF4? Because Makoto has a lot of other tools that make you shit yourself, so you’re hesitant to really press buttons which makes dash throw way stronger.

If the game stays similar to how it is now, I guarantee people will stop getting hit by cash yellow so often within weeks.

Well we do have crush counters, so yes, pressing buttons is already scary as a defender. Also, dashes are 17 frames, which I believe is the average human reaction time, which means that when you react to the dash, the opponent already recovered, so you can’t punish him on reaction, only on guess.