Personally I like the tighter window. It’s not about getting the timing right on wakeup it’s more that your attackers different moves with different recovery and frame advantage mean you need to be on point. You have less wiggle room and need to pay close attention to your attacker and because of all that it opens up more room for the attacker since the defender is under real pressure to make that reversal happen at just the right time.
So I guess the 5 solution is, make them somewhat lenient, but make it really painful when it is a bad decision like you say. I don’t prefer it, but I doubt it will change and it honestly goes better with online play too, which I think is important to consider with 5. It seems like the whole game is being built to work the same online and off, giving extra time to see things and react. Which I am all for because realistically that is the direction things are moving so I’d rather something work how it was designed in that context.
Holding up has a weakness though, you’re not blocking low anymore and if you tag the opponent during the 4F of prejump you get a full combo. It’s not a fair comparison. Longer reversal windows offer no downside to the defender only makes their life easier. Possibly introducing OSes as well.
Do you think we add reversal window leniency to normal attacks as well as throws? At the moment those require frame perfect inputs just like the old SF games.
And if you guess right in holding up you get a full combo while a reversal gets you a bit of damage. The point is that there’s no real execution barrier here; you make the read and pull off the manuver.
Basically, if someone is mashing out is on me to call that out and act accordingly, not to hope they miss the reversal window
As for the overall buffer: I honestly wouldn’t be against it; it can work quite well. Xrd has a 3 frame buffer for everything. The big issue is making sure you don’t get weird OSes out of it.
I don’t think they should make reversal windows smaller. They’re fine as they are.
I think asking to make uppercuts require a direction that isn’t down at the start is a reasonable request, which will do what I think people want, which is preventing people just mashing down foward into punch constantly, while not making it harder for people who can’t do that, because their reversal is charge, or a half circle motion, and it also means all reversals (which aren’t mash or button charge moves, which there aren’t any yet) require you to stop holding down.
Not going to happen, but I think it’s a more reasonable thing to request.
Also, the jump thing is a fair comparison especially in a game without true block strings to lows because you’re still only getting hit if your read was wrong. If they do a strike instead of a throw then you made the wrong call, much as if they blocked instead of frametrapped a reversal
I still don’t personally see why it’s terrible to ask for a little bit shorter of a reversal window, but if they fix the other things on top of what they’ve already changed that will definitely make mashed reversals less threatening on its own. I understand the reasons why overall for the game you’d want the windows to be large, so considering reversals and mashing is already riskier than it was in IV, I guess it’s something we can omit from the list unless we get a lot of counter arguments to revisit it.
Revised full list of improvements/concerns including things from the previous list. Anything that has a * in front of it means that it is lower in importance and may not make the final list **if people are ok with it not being on the list. Chosen because I feel it has mostly been fixed , something that can be greatly fixed with what was mentioned above or generally something that has a very small chance of actually being changed.
**Increase pushback of certain normals or specials that are negative on block. ** This compounds the issue of the shortage of true block strings as not only is Ryu’s c.MK to fireball unsafe on block, not a true string and doesn’t combo at max range, but also is difficult to land safely due to lack of pushblock making a punish way too easy on such a fundamental element of his gameplan. Things like sweeps and other low normals are that are 0 or unsafe tend to be difficult to use in neutral due to this.
**Increase range of lower normal hit boxes. ** This will help the above issue so that players can feel like they are in range to poke or start a ranged pressure game without being punished or worrying about the opponent walking/dashing back and making them whiff so easily.
Continue to emphasize block stun and allowing more block strings to be true block strings. Only jabs creating true block strings in SFIV really limited the type of pressure you could apply in conjunction with the invincible dashes. Even if this can’t be applied to all the strings, at least certain normal to special cancels like c.MK to hadoken should create a true string at all times.
Make the hurtboxes react more naturally. Right now there are still too many situations where a characters foot in idle standing or crouching animation can not be touched by low forwards and other crouching normals. A good example is when Bison is crouching and his far foot sticks way out but still can’t be touched at all by lower normals.
Try to create a better medium between fireball and anti fireball options. There seems to be a lot of anti projectile options per character and don’t want another SF game where the projectile zoning characters always have to be walking on eggshells with every projectile they throw. Projectiles should be pertinent and players should have to learn to get around them with spacing and patience rather than just have a ton of tools to bypass them.
****Redo the round if there is a double KO. ****The opponent who won the first round should not get priority for a double KO. It’s an archaic design that rewards the person who got better momentum in one round too much. It also really screws up a game where both players won a round as it just considers it a draw. If this is fixed so the round is redone it is a lot less work for tournament organizers and more fair for both players as they get another round to prove themselves instead of being punished for trading at the end of a round.
Improve walk speeds a bit, especially for characters that have slower speeds like Bison, Birdie and Nash. Would prefer something closer to old game walk speeds for characters. Especially if throws are as short ranged as they are.
Improve the range on throws a tiny bit. They do a lot of damage, stun and have shorter tech windows, but we just don’t see huge importance in them if people can be near each other and whiff throw at the same time. That’s just too short at the moment we feel. Chip damage on normals and higher damage is nice, but at least even a few pixels longer wouldn’t be terrible.
Either increase the time that white chip from normal lingers or make the white chip damage larger. Right now walk speeds seem to be too slow and the white chip recovers too quickly for it to be something that will hugely effect matches.
Possibly adjust the scaling on longer combos. The game’s scaling still seems SFIV like where the longer your combo is, the scaling gets increased at an excessive rate.
*Consider making the stage sizes a bit smaller especially if this is game with slower walk speeds and less emphasis on zoning. Keeps focus on the footsies and rush game.
*Continue to focus on limiting range and combo options off of light attacks and improve medium and heavy normals for footsies and hit confirming.
*Strengthen V Reversals. Most reports from players say they are currently too slow and not worth burning considering the huge importance of V Triggers.
*Continue to emphasize making reversals more fair and riskier.
*Adjust the pushback of positive on block medium or heavy normals. The way the game is going walking or dashing backwards will still be really strong if all normals push back so far. We would like some type of offense on block where we can stay in without having to walk forward or dash after every positive on block medium or heavy normal to maintain momentum.
This makes sense for light attacks as these are meant to be lessened in emphasis, but this same heavy pushback shouldn’t be applied on the positive on block medium and heavy normals.
*Lessen emphasis on option selects. Try to minimize the amount of situations where the game can store inputs that allows options selects so the game can be more read based. Now that there are less options to slip out of pressure, these shouldn’t be as necessary.
*A reduction in the reversal window. Right now it’s still believed to about 5 frames which is still rather large for a game that has so much pushback and little block stun between normals.
[quote=“ParryAll, post:108, topic:176376”]
@ParryAll Talking about what I’ve listed above here.
Unless you have a dive kick or an attack that reaches really far down (such as Adon/Sakura’s NJHK) most of the time you can’t punish a whiffed throw with a neutral jump so it’s a wash. Actually in some cases you can punish the jump with an anti air before the opponent lands if they neutral jumped or were in the corner. Invincible reversal will beat a strike and throw and lose to block. Invincible reversal beats frame traps unless you simply go for Normal -> do nothing. Easier to perform reversals also weaken meaties but that is more a “I’m not getting what I intended” issue rather than a balance issue. Jump will lose to strike, lose to block (as you can react and anti air), and potentially lose to or go even with a throw.
I’m using “throw” as command grab here generally, as the hard read on a normal throw these days should be a backdash. Unless you’re Bison and want to troll with air super of course.
Regardless, the list looks good although I’d put the two push back ones together and go a little more in depth about throw ranges and walk speed. Something like how many jabs it mediums still let you go for a tick throw in order to make the frametrap game scary
Ok, so what’s the idea on the jabs pushing back? Should light attacks still push back as far as they do now that light to medium links are limited now? Or since this is a game where only light and medium normals tend to have frame advantage should we ask for a lessening on the pushback to make it more easy to set up ticks and frame traps on the few plus normals we have? Most specials are negative as is per standard for newer SF games so this would be good to bring up.
I basically think the up close game should work almost exactly how it does in ST.
Give jump attacks a bit more block and hitstun, give them a bit less pushback and I think it’s set.
From their it’s just about balancing things according to characters. I don’t mind super short throw ranges for characters like cammy that can divekick their way in… But for a character like Chun or sim if he was in the game I think much longer throw ranges are warranted.
I just want capcom to actually think is all. They always say they want an offensive game at every damn interview and stuff… But they end up doing the opposite, then realising they fucked up, then putting in a bunch of overpowered offensive crap like divekicks to try and balance things out.
Lol I want ST with new characters, new mechanics like ex moves,and updated graphics… In a nutshell. ST wasn’t perfect but all around I think it represents more of the best of streetfighter and less of the worst of streetfighter so I think it should be the general basis of things with SOME inspiration from 3s.
Basically what sf4 tried to be and should have been, but failed miserably to do.
I like the idea, it’s just realistically having the game’s pressure and throw ranges being as strong as ST just isn’t very realistic. Like we could try and push that, but the chances of it going through at this stage are near zero. We’re probably better off pushing something that plays a bit more like a newer age alpha, cvs2 or 3S at this point since very little about the actual game other than the damage output is reminiscent of ST. It’s like I’ve been trying to tell ilitirit, if you’re a big ST fan the chances of you finding a way to like a lot of things about this game are going to be tough. It falls more in line with games made after ST.
Adjusting the things in the list above should at least get it feeling a bit more like those games if anything.
I thought ST was known for having low hit/block stun on jump ins? I remember that was another complaint of SFIV was very little block stun on grounded stuff, but get all the block stun in the world when you jump in on someone. Which wasn’t great in a game that had less opportunities to do damaging AAs.
I also would like to hear @caliagent#3 opinion on the throw ranges since he seems to bring a counter argument for why the throw ranges should be short. I know he brought something up about the throw games in SFxT and so it would be good to hear as a counter point since most of us here tend to prefer the games that had stronger throws or throw ranges.
What I do like about the throw game so in V so far though is that the tech window is very short like 3S and getting a whiff for trying it during a crouch. It makes it so throws are strong once you finally do get in that range. It’s just a question of if throws are powerful enough to make it require that much work to get in range for them. Especially characters with these drudging standard walk speeds like Bison who have previously been known for strong tick throw games.
Also, I do wonder if the removal of most light to medium links and the crush counters on DPs was inspired by the previous list I made. That would fall in line with the previous list asking to soften the strength of lights and make reversals riskier.
Yeah I don’t necessarily want throws as strong as ST. More like sf4 without crouchteching or at least a super short throw window. I’m mostly talking about ST’s poke game and stuff like that… I really liked ST style few long pokestrings guile pokestrings deejay strings etc etc…
With a nice honest throw system I could see that being totally fun to play as and against. I don’t like the idea of mashed reversals either though. Like that shit is terrible.
I just want a game that plays more or less like that and as far as sfxt throw ranges no thank you. That shit only works in sfxt for certain reasons like walking jab offense and tekken characters having really strong high/low game and strong re pressure game in general.
The thing that most people aren’t able to do is see how changing one thing affects others and what us generally needed to compensate. You weaken throws you need to up pressure or high/low mixups or whatever… But you can’t JUST weaken throws and put nothing in its wake and expect to still have fast paced games with all else being equal.
OK well using throw as referencing command grabs for an entire discussion without even once saying it is well… kind of silly. We are talking overall system mechanics and you are talking about character specific tools which will only affect maybe 1/4th of the cast.
You really should have been more clear. If you are discussing command throws then well I dunno where to even restart this conversation.
I’m not really that knowledgeable about ST but I remember a lot of people saying ST hit stun/block stun on jumping attacks was actually kind of low compared to SF4, is that wrong?
Yeah hit/blockstun in ST is MUCH lower than in newer school games. I prefer the longer hit and blockstun from newer games because it puts more emphasis on jumping in. In ST you kinda had to do deep jumpin attacks. So AA were actually easier in that game because of that. If the opponent jumped in with a higher priority early jumpin then the hitstun would wear off and you could get a free throw off on them as they land.
I’ve maintained from Day 1 that this game plays nothing like ST, and I don’t really have a problem with that. In fact, the comparison I make most often about how this game plays is that it’s a blander version of Alpha/3S. All my observations about the game basically have a context to them. For example, there’s this post that’s been stuck in my quickly reply box for several weeks but I just never posted it because I got tired of trying to explain to people that they should stop looking at certain things in isolation:
A highlighted, my point of course is not that the game should play like ST, it’s that certain mechanics in SFV do not make sense when put into context.
So if we talk about stuff like pushback, I basically tested it and came to the conclusion that there is no general rule for how pushback works on some normals. For example, low shorts pushback further than low jabs. Is this a problem on it’s own? No. But when you take into account other stuff it’s easy to see why it’s problematic. Eg. it’s much harder to open someone up with low / throw mixups because:
a) Shorts push them out further which makes certain follow ups impractical
b) Throws have ass range and have relatively slow startup
c) Walk speeds are slow
Then you have moves that are highly punishable and have very little pushback. And stuff like Ryu st.mp, which has inordinately higher pushback IMO. These type of decisions make no sense for reasons that I’ve already mentioned elsewhere.
The decisions they are making make sense. I can see the sense in them. They make sense the way some one that wants to end all the bullshit jumps off a building. Out of context that makes no sense, but in context it makes perfect sense.
Moves having little pushback that are highly punishable make sense… To be punished easily.
It ain’t rocket science to see what they are going for:
Frame advantage moves you further out since you are being rewarded with frame advantage, they don’t want to reward you with both frame advantage and good positioning. And unsafe moves have less pushback so they are easier to punish.
Looked at that way, the pattern is obvious to me.
Not to say I agree with the thinking , I certainly fucking don’t.
How does that make sense? What problem does that solve? So what if get frame advantage if I can’t take advantage of it?
It’s like saying “Hey guys instead of giving you sticks to fight with, I’m going to give you swords. Except the swords are also made of wood.”
No sense at all.
I mean look at the example specifically about how the pushback is different on lights and shorts and what this causes. Sure, you can say that it makes sense because they are trying to make a game with very obtuse combat. From that perspective you can argue that anything “makes sense”.
They said they try to give all the moves specific uses. But when you try them out, their uses are so narrow that you just may as well forget that they exist. But again, this will also make sense if you buy the line “It works if you are willing to commit and it pays off”. I can say that about wake up ultra in SFIV as well…
So these posts put things more in perspective for me. I guess @TheFreshPrince was right in that it isn’t just one issue with normals having too little pushback, but also these frame advantaged normals that seemingly do push you back far and defeat the purpose of being plus on block. If you still have to dash after being plus on block might as well not be plus on block. Only thing you’ll get at best is slight advantage to throw another normal that you’ll most likely be nearly spaced out of.
This is really annoying since that means I will have to change the blockstun portion of the list and add why some normals need more pushback and why other need less. Basically it seems like they have it in reverse and need to switch it up. I guess that may make it a bit shorter to explain.
If we take these things ilitirit mentioned…
a) Shorts push them out further which makes certain follow ups impractical
b) Throws have ass range and have relatively slow startup
c) Walk speeds are slow
I think a and c have the most likely chance of being adjusted. Even if we don’t get any larger throw ranges, normals with frame advantage keeping us in and faster walk speeds would help the cause to stay in and get any better chance of landing throws a possibility.
I don’t see them budging too much on the throw ranges if they made them this short from the start. Especially not ST ranged, but we’ll see.
That is exactly how I feel about many things in this game.
I don’t know if you added this, but I still feel that there is too much hit-stop on heavy attacks. I remember having the discussion about Ryu’s cr.hp. The hit-stop is so long that you can hit-confirm it, which is awesome. Except that it’s punishable on block. And if you can into fireball to make it safer, you’re also punishable on block (depending on the situation). So what’s the point of having the hit-stop that long? I don’t see a situation in the game’s current state where you would try to hit-confirm from it, except as Tebbo mentioned when you are fishing for a hit, but…