I'm hotter than you!: Poison Match-up thread * Open for Discussion* (Updated: 8/28/2014)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
381

Questions for my advanced Poison players…

Ok facing grapplers aren’t a problem for me, but somethings I’m just completely confused on…

If I use fw+mp for an overhead against them and it connects on hit when their crouching, why am I still getting a command grab on me directly after before it seems Ive even touched the ground?

Is there any DP that can beat Hugo and Zangiefs body slam? I’ve had so much unnecessary damage because whether it’s EX or MK you see her in the full DP but they come in horizontally forming a + sign and she loses even though the swirls are completely around her no matter on the floor or just leaving the air.

Can Shotos always DP through her EX Rekka after the 3rd hit?

EX LMT and EX Rekka suppose to be safe/advantageous on block right? I’m getting thrown constantly after it from more advanced players.

WTF is with El Fuerte? I keep getting my ass handed to me or barely winning even from a 500PP player. I know what to do on wake up but since he goes through her DP and will slam her down, she takes the hit she can’t do anything. Even trying to play fireball with him he can just run around and trying to AA him consistently doesn’t work at all.

Dhalsim can go to hell and suffer in the furthest reaches of it.

382

I think the reason that you can combo the overhead vs crouching opponents is that it hits on the later active frames on the move. This generally mean the shorter the opponent the later the move will hit, thus giving you more + frames on hit. Now I am not 100 % sure about this but grapplers are all generally considered large characters and that means you are usually at less + frames or even negative if they got hit standing. With 1 or 2 frames start-up on throws, They will most definitely challenge what you can do after the overhead.

I am not sure about this but i have pretty much gave up on AA with DP long ago. I reckon your best bets would probably be the far St.MP , cr.HP and cl.HK from their effective distances or just Focus backdash if you aren’t confident in challenging the jump in.

I don’t know much about EX Rekka frame data actually but i would imagine that it would be punishable after 3rd hit getting blocked.

I am not sure about Ex Rekka but I know for sure that EX LMT is +2 or something like that on hit not sure of the exact number but definitely positive. They are probably mashing throws in anticipation for you throwing. If you are noticing this pattern you have a couple of options. 1- Do the overhead as you will be considered airborne and not throw able (be wary of DPs and reversals though). 2- I think against most character you get a cr.LP check after EX.LMT so go for that. 3- This is a huge risk and a big YOLO moves you can do like U2 after Ex LMT. If they are constantly trying to throw the will eat it. You can DP, stuff like that.

Not much i can say about both really. They are annoying matchups and one unfortunately that i don’t have much experience with too.

Now my question is: What is the best way to deal with Chun’s Haznshu on a read and on a reaction ? So say She did a fireball and decided to keep up the pressure with a haznshu. Can I DP that or just block and wait.

383

Cross up EX LMT Set Up

Point blank crouch blocked Cr.MP xx EX LMT

Ibuki*, Seth, Akuma, Sakura*, Oni, Yun*, Juri*, Chun Li*, Dhalsim*, Cammy*, DeeJay, Cody, Rolento*, Guile, El Feurte*, Yang,

Notes

Ibuki: EX LMT Can’t be blocked crouching at all, has to be blocked standing. EX DP Whiffs

Sakura: EX LMT crosses up on both a crouch block and stand block. Must be blocked reverse crouching or walk forward under it. All DP’s and ultras whiff.

**Yun: **EX LMT can’t be blocked crouching either way, has to be blocked standing. LK, HK, EX Upkicks beat our LMT

Juri: EX LMT whiffs if she crouches but is a cross up if she stands. EX Pinwheel connects for 2 hits at 60 Damage and resets us to full screen away.

**Chun Li: **EX LMT can’t be blocked crouching at all, has to be blocked standing. EX SBK either trades and takes off 30 damage (we take off 50) and resets us to full screen away, gets stuffed or we land inside her and she spins and doesn’t hit us.

Dhalsim: EX LMT can’t be blocked crouching at all, has to be blocked standing. Instant air u2 will beat our LMT.

Cammy: EX LMT crosses up both crouch block and stand block, she has to walk forward or reverse crouch block. DP’s whiff unless done very late and they auto correct.

**Rolento: **EX LMT whiffs if he crouches. Crosses up if he stand blocks.

El Feurte: EX LMT whiffs if he crouches. Crosses up if he stand blocks. Beats all Q Bomb, EX DP Whiffs

EX LMT Whiffs on

Ryu, Ken, Gen, Dan, M.Bison*, Evil Ryu, Vega*

Notes
EX LMT whiffs on crouching and standing M.Bison and Vega

384

here are the most optimal max punish combos for mid screen and corner. Bolded is the most optimal, and italic is what i think is the best bang for your buck combo (how easy for how much you get). What is both Bolded and ***Italic ***is what i think is both very optimal and easy.

Midscreen meterless
Lvl 3 Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cr.HP xx HP Rekkas [357 Damage / 455 Stun]
**Lvl 3 Focus Attack, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx HP Rekkas [365 Damage / 495 Stun] **

Corner Meterless
Lvl 3 Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.HK xx HP Rekkas [364 Damage / 455 Stun]
Lvl 3 Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.MP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [373 Damage / 430 Stun]
Lvl 3 Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.HK xx MP Fireball, Cr.LP xx LP Rekkas [387 Damage / 480 Stun]
**Lvl 3 Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.HK xx MP Fireball, Cr.LP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [398 Damage / 505 Stun] **

Mid Screen 1 Bar
Lvl 3 Focus Attack, Cl.HP xx EX LMT [370 Damage / 430 Stun]
Lvl 3 Focus Attack, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas, J.HK/HP [370 Damage / 550 Stun]
**Lvl 3 Focus Attack, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas, HP Rekkas [371 Damage / 530 Stun] *Character Specific **

Corner 1 Bar
Lvl 3 Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.HP xx EX LMT [396 Damage / 440 Stun]
**Lvl 3 Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx EX Fireball, Cr.LP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [426 Damage / 550 Stun] **

Mid Screen 2 Bars
Lvl 3 Red Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cr.HP xx HP Rekkas [432 Damage / 455 Stun]
**Lvl 3 Red Focus Attack, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx HP Rekkas [440 Damage / 495 Stun] **

Corner 2 Bars
Lvl 3 Red Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.MP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [448 Damage / 430 Stun]
**Lvl 3 Red Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.HK xx MP Fireball, Cr.LP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [473 Damage / 505 Stun] **

Mid Screen 3 Bars
***Lvl 3 Red Focus Attack, Cl.HP xx EX LMT [445 Damage / 430 Stun]
J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball EX Focus Attack, Cl.HK xx HP Rekkas [446 Damage / 715 Stun]

Corner 3 Bars
Lvl 3 Red Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.HP xx EX LMT [471 Damage / 440 Stun]
**J.HK, Cl.HK xx LP Fireball FADC Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx EX Fireball, Cr.LP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [486 Damage / 750 Stun] **
**Lvl 3 Red Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx EX Fireball, Cr.LP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [501 Damage / 550 Stun] **

Mid Screen Full Super
J.HK, Cl.HK XX LP Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx LP Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx HP Rekkas [475 Damage / 755 Stun]
***J.HK, Cl.HK xx LP Fireball xx HP Super [525 Damage / 440 Stun] ***

Corner Full Super
***J.HK, Cl.HK xx LP Fireball xx HP Super [525 Damage / 440 Stun] ***
J.HK, Cl.HK xx LP Fireball FADC Cl.HK xx LP Fireball FADC Cl.HK xx MP Fireball, Cr.LP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [508 Damage / 780 Stun]
**Lvl 3 Red Focus Attack, HP Fireball, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx LP Fireball FADC Cl.HK xx MP Fireball, Cr.LP, St.MK xx MP Rekkas [526 Damage / 585 Stun] **

385

Why is Chun/Poison considered so bad for Chun? On paper, I thought it’d be horrible for Poison due to her walkspeed, better normals and U1 for FBs

386

Chun can’t deal with Poison in mid range or far range. Hazanshu’s are very risky for Chun to do to go over fireballs, and U1 can be baited very easily. Randomly going into FA stance can screw with the other players’ reactions (i.e. Chun U1) because it looks very similar to throwing out a fireball.

Chun’s best range vs Poison is close range, and it’s extremely hard for her to get in. And even if she does, Poison can get away fairly easily (FA backdash, triple K, DP FADC, etc.) without taking too much damage. That, and Chun’s damage output isn’t very high, what with Chun’s cr.HP xx leg loops whiffing on Poison. It’s an uphill battle for Chun.

Best way to deal with Chun’s hazanshu IMO is to Focus Dash through it, or charge for lvl2 FA crumple -> BnB
If you’re zoning and you know hazanshu’s coming, then HP fireball (hazanshu lands on it; Chun in juggle state) -> cr.HP xx HP fireball for pressure.

You can DP Chun in between fireball and hazanshu during neutral, but if she knocks you down (throw -> fireball -> hazanshu), then it’s a true block string and you will have to commit to DPing before her fireball even touches you. This situation would be a read. Scratch that, I don’t even know if you have enough vertical range on your DP to hit Chun in that situation.

So yeah, if you block Chun’s fireball from a knockdown situation and she follows up with Hazanshu, that’s a true block string and you will get hit if you try to do anything in between.

387

Poison builds meter faster, can completely neutralize the fireballs with her own and pressure and chip with the ex. Hp fireball is difficult for chun to jump or hazanchu over. Chun has less health. Poison gets a lot of set ups on chun too. Off a back throw poison has a safe jump hitting the front and a safe jump hitting cross up so a 50/50. She has a safe jump from rekkas she can add nice option selects too. She has EX lmt set ups that can not be crouch blocked on against chun Li which make her stop charging down if chun realizes. if she contests the Ex lmt with EX SBK she will either trade in poisons favor, flat out get grabbed out the EX SBK or poison lands in the center unaffected by chuns spinning for a free punish depending on the timing she does EX SBK. Chuns u1 has to be a dash u1 to land against Hp fireball because if she doesn’t dash it trades with the fireball.

388

The amount of ways Poison can cross up E.Ryu with LMT is hilarious. Played a FT20 with a friend of mine today and the sheer amount of setups made me die laughing, he literally had to guess or DP everytime after my blockstrings, loved it.

cr.LK, cr.LP, cr.LK was my favourite, though, since that’s my typical hitconfirm combo. dude was mad as hell when I took 30% of his life everytime he guessed wrong, front, back or throw. pick one.

389

Alright, thanks guys, I’ll just have to try out the matchup I guess.

390

Variety of touch of death set ups for Elena (900 stun), Blanka (950 Stun), and Cody (1050 Stun) to a lesser degree
Requires 3-4 bars

Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx HP Rekkas 3 bars / 140 + 438 Damage / 845 Stun
Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball EX level 2 Focus Crumple, HP Fireball, Cr.HP xx HP Rekkas 3 Bars / 140 + 449 Damage / 855 Stun
Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball EX Level 2 Focus Crumple, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx HP Rekkas 3 bars / 140 + 454 Damage / 880 Stun

Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas empty Jump cancel, Cr.LP 4 Bars / 140 + 431 Damage / 870 Stun
Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas Jump cancel, J.LP/LK 4 Bars / 140 + 435 Damage / 870 Stun
Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas Jump cancel, J.MP/MK 4 Bars / 140 + 441 Damage / 880 Stun
Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball EX Level 2 Focus Crumple, HP Fireball, Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas jump cancel J.HK 4 Bars / 140 + 455 Damage / 880 Stun
Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas Jump cancel, J.HK 4 Bars / 140 + 444 Damage / 900 Stun
Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball EX Level 2 Focus Crumple, Cl.MP, Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas Jump cancel, J.HK 4 Bars / 140 + 460 Damage / 905 Stun

and so on…you can probably explore more and find more variety.

So let me explain what is happening.

After a back throw, on Elena, Blanka and Cody, an instant J.HK Lands extremely ambiguous as a cross up. Against Cody and Blanka, it is entirely safe from reversals. Against Elena, She can beat it only with EX DP. Now you can train Elena not to contest it by doing j.lk instead of J.HK first as the j.lk makes the EX DP whiff. Now if you don’t do an immediate jump in HK and pause slightly before jumping, this will allow the opponent to start getting up earlier and their hurtbox will be out in front and you will hit in the front. This can not be seen by the eye and is a true 50/50 if the opponent is trying to block.

Now by utilizing this 50/50 and going straight into a heavy combo like the ones I have listed, we can get some scary results if everything goes to plan.

The main thing you want to pay attention to is the stun value. As you can see, some of the combos i have listed do 900+ stun, and Elena has 900 stun, which would mean that Elena would get stunned right at the end of the combo. This is something we** DON’T** want. Why is that? well if we stun her right at the end of the combo, our damage scaling is maxed out, and the following combo we get on her stun is going to be less then 10% of its worth. You want to use the combos that end right below their stun threshold so that the following touch will stun them, leaving them stunned with your next combo being unscaled. For example.

Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas Empty Jump cancel, Cr.LP 4 Bars / 140 + 431 Damage / 870 Stun
Backthrow > J.HK, Cl.HK xx EX Fireball FADC Cr.HP xx EX Rekkas Jump cancel, J.LP/LK 4 Bars / 140 + 435 Damage / 870 Stun

the first combo ends in an empty jump > land > cr.lp (air reset) and stun critically high at 870/900. Right after that cr.lp I will do an overhead to catch them as they recover from the air reset. This is a very nice and tricky ending that has to be blocked high which is not what people normally do when point blank in front of the enemy. Since she is at 870 stun, and the least amount of stun any one of our hits does is 50, that overhead if it lands will cause the stun, giving us a free follow up combo with no scaling added yet. You can easily land a meterless max punish combo in the 300’s damage range ending in Rekkas for a hard knock down totaling off 90+% of her health. The second combo listed ends in a jump cancel J.LP/LK, this allows us to do a high air reset into a left right mix up with walk under/dash under cross under or not shenanigans, where 1 jab or any hit will lead into stun. Just examples so you get the idea.

So with Blanka you want to do some of the ones that are at least 900 if you want the guaranteed 1 hit away from stun. With Cody you can’t get to the 1 touch away but i mean its only a difference of a couple hits, that’s one basic combo like a couple jabs into Rekkas. Either way I don’t see how you could execute this and lose the round after.

*Also to note, the combos that cancel EX Fireball into level 2 focus crumple are inconsistent on Cody so you might want to avoid those on him and go for the FADC variants, which are easier anyways :stuck_out_tongue:

391

I see, thanks @amrraed!

392

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BMMNZ9YV8Q

Here is the touch of death set up in action. As you can see, after i win round 1 and have 4 bars stocked going into the next round, all i do is spam back throw fishing for it relentlessly lol, i messed up the timing twice in the second round on the j.hk cross up as the timing is awkward on Elena compared to Cody and Blanka, but it gave me the feel i needed to get it on the third try.

Heres the gif for you lazy mofo’s

393

Tali how come you don’t do ex rekka into another sequence? It saves you meter incase you make a mistake and the follow up leads to an auto dizzy.

394

i dont quite get what you mean?

395

What i was saying is after that meaty cross up you can go for st.hk into ex rekka and finish that into another j.hk. It should stun for the cost of one bar instead of 3. It might stun during the rekka sequence.

396

Since each hit is a new input in rekka it would have damage scaled too much. Cr.hp has 200 stun. That’s the same as all four rekkas. Hitting the most heavy buttons is ideal.

397

@Genistar‌ oh I see what your saying. Yes definitely you can do backthrow, jump hk, cl.hk xx EX rekkas, j.mp/mk and do a left or right cross under mix up where if you guess right on the mix up the combo will stun. But since the combo stuns 5 or 6 hits into it on like the 2 or 3rd hit of the rekkas the stun is scaled a bit so your stun combo doesn’t do as much as it could and she still left with a good 250 health. Definitely still a great option but not what I would call a “touch of death” set up. And you shouldn’t have to worry about the meter. This is something you want to go for on the game winning round, save it for the final round or second round after you win the first one, by then you should be able to accumulate 3-4 bars going into it so you want to spend it all to finish the fight. And after the back throw the j.hk, cl.hk is enough visual time for me to hit confirm it to ex fireball on hit or ex lmt on block. That 2 hit cl.hk helps slow it down enough for the visual confirm.

Also on Elena the 3 bar version is
back throw, j.hk, cl.hp xx lp fireball fadc cr.hp xx ex rekkas into j.mp/mk for the left right mix up where if you guess right you get stun on the second jab. Or ex rekkas into empty jump, cr.lp > meaty overhead reset. You still need to link a jab after the overhead hits for the stun. Then hit a max out combo and she should be left with 15% of her health, I think the 3 bar version also builds 1 bar by the time you get stun so you can end your max punish combo on the stun in ex rekkas and go for another left right mix up for the kill

398

hit the touch of death again

oh and heres a bonus double perfect on a gief
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfWKIw3fpuc

399

What has a longer range, Forward or backward throw ?

400

backthrow