That’s disgusting
:trollface:
Like someone mentioned before Mvc2 = apparently broken but we grew into it Mvc3 = Forced brokeness as in give us a game that was “supposed” to be at the same level of Mvc2’s brokeness but without given time to get broken in.
Switch the last two words and then it becomes some shit you’d probably see in the next Se7en movie, or Saw.
So stuff to get out of the way mentioned in this thread.
I was doing commentary with Gootecks awhile back for an SF4 tournament. We both won our matches and were getting pretty deep in and the live crowd and stream monsters were really cheering for us and it was a little surprising. So he turns to me and he’s like “you know you’ve fallen off in a game when people start cheering this hard for you” and we shared a good laugh. It’s true though. It doesn’t matter who you are or what you play, scrubs are going to be scrubs. I remember watching a stream awhile back and before I could hit the popout button, a comment caught my eye, something about “oh I don’t respect Combo Fiend he only plays 3 characters at least (other guy) plays more than 1 team, if he whored out 1 team like Combo he’d be good too”. After awhile the stupidity just blends together and you learn to ignore it.
It doesn’t bother me that people don’t like me. As captain of team Evil for SB, I revel in it actually and I think everybody who gets classified as a stream villain does also. During MvC2 days, Justin started using the Imperial March from Star Wars as his personal theme song. It’s pointless to try and shape your game for popular opinion or to try and be “the good guy” because that’s a moving target and one that is completely meaningless anyways. The only time it actually makes me angry is when people say stuff like “yeah I like Phoenix, but I don’t play her because I don’t want people to think I’m cheap”. That actually makes me want to punch a baby or something. Just play your game and win or lose and screw whoever wants to set artificial limits on the game.
OK with that out of the way, just to clarify. Some people online and in this thread were saying that Wesker/Storm/Iron Man was some kind of new lab team. That’s a no. That team is one of my most commonly picked teams online and I’ve been playing it and working on it off and on since the Marvel 1.0 DVD I did with cross counter. That team actually has a short section devoted to it in the DVD and I’ve obviously added some stuff onto it since then. I probably get more OCVs and more 15-20 second wins with that team than with any other. It’s a really solid team and you can do some really creative stuff with it (as well as a couple of things that are very specific to Combo Fiend’s team and very specific to his play style). You have to keep Wesker alive for most of the game and you have to land the first hit. You have to land the first hit. You. Have. To. Land. The. First. Hit.
You.
Have.
To.
Land.
The.
First.
Hit.
The reason I lost to Combo Fiend had nothing to do with Storm/Iron Man. Storm dropped some combos and Iron Man was stuck fighting characters he doesn’t have many options against but their performance was fine. If Wesker did his job and didn’t get perfected in 2 straight matches, things would have turned out differently. On the plus side, none of the tricks of that team were exposed because Wesker failed so spectacularly. Maybe that team will get another shot in 4-5 days. The player failed more than the theory failed.
Also, the decision has nothing to do with DP’s relative placement. People saying that Phoenix isn’t the obvious #1 are kidding themselves. DP still needs to be nerfed into the ground because she’s far and away the best character in the game. Capcom did not go far enough in Ultimate if we’re being perfectly honest. Just picking Phoenix against Combo Fiend isn’t worth it right now. It has nothing to do with character matchups; none of his characters is closer than 7.5-2.5 on DP honestly. It’s just that he currently has the leg up in strategy. I blame Clockwork for this, they play very very often meaning that he’s right now the best equipped player on the planet to deal with DP shenanigans. This gives you two options as a Phoenix player. Try to beat him at that match head on or ambush him with something he might not have seen before. I chose ambush. Truth be told, when I see him at SB, I’m probably going to try again unless I level up tremendously in 3 days of practice (unlikely). It has nothing to do with proving a point, or trying to win over fans. When you play in a tournament, you should always do what gives you the best chance to win. Whether it’s going low tier (lol Marrow) looking for an ambush or picking the best character in the game, you do what it takes to win that match at that particular time.
Justin did the same thing I did, going lower on the tier list to try to win certain matches. The only difference is, he succeeded. Although you can read comments talking about how his “lame Storm” bored stream monsters to death. And that’s why we ignore them and just play.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
HYPER THREAD KO!
I just liked Viscant’s post before I read it cuz I figured I would like it any way. LOL.
It’s true. You can’t be a top player and care what people think about your play. You just have to play.
@ Viscant…I’m kinda glad you still think Dark Phoenix is ridiculously strong and will still make up for the nerfs to regular Phoenix. Right now regular Phoenix is already getting hurt a lot with these creative snaps so I’m glad to see you still think Dark Phoenix is worth it to play for. It shows for certain that the 2 part Phoenix character is far from useless. It also makes me wanna come up with more creative setups for dealing with her during the snap and during XF.
It’s good to fight the cheap shit like the old days again. I just like how a lot of the cast of MVC3 just feels so strong and capable of doing things that people have to worry about. It reminds me of the way games used to be.
If there’s one thing I’d like to ask your opinion on if you care to answer…what would have been the best way you would like to have seen Phoenix change so that she is still strong but fair enough for competitive play? Capcom obviously has what they did but I’d like to hear your side.
It’s impossible. The gimmick behind Phoenix is pretty simple theoretically. You cripple your team at the beginning in order and go from 2 assists to 1.25 assists to have an overwhelming advantage at the end, if you can make it.
The problem is that the end result by definition must be tremendously overpowering. If the reward for gimping yourself out for the first 3/4 of the match isn’t worth it, the character fails conceptually. Dark Phoenix must be ridiculous in order to make it worth it. Otherwise there’s no point in picking that character type and hurting yourself early game.
Here’s where the logic breaks down. The Phoenix factor is not just Dark Phoenix. The Phoenix factor involves all the things the other person does to avoid DP and all the ways they force themselves to play sub-optimally. Get a happy birthday? If you have a character that does a lot of hits, better snap out. Phoenix saves you 140-200% life. If you have an opening to land a kill combo or just a big combo on the point character, you probably should snap anyways. This is how I beat NerdJosh in the team tournament at Evo. If you watch that match and just assume normal, non-spectacular combo on Wesker every time his She-Hulk lands a hit, my Wesker had at minimum 2 million health. Probably closer to 2.5 million. If you give my best character that much life, it’s going to cost you in the end and I used every last drop of that life bar. Wolverine lands an early hit and wants to x-factor? OK…if I get to level 5 the game is essentially over. You just pandora’d yourself. You have between 8-12 seconds to kill me and you better be right on your mixup on my incoming character, otherwise I win the game relatively easily. You have to conserve meter. You can have a great anti-DP character like Akuma or Dormammu last. You can save your x-factor. But if you have 0 bars and you turn me dark, you’re just like anyone else. My match vs. Noel Brown is a good example of this. He saved his x-factor. He had Akuma. He also had 0 bars when I went dark, thus allowing me to set traps and throw fireballs and keep doing fake teleports until the real one came and that was the game.
That’s the Phoenix factor in action. And you can’t just reduce the effectiveness of DP in order to compensate for this stuff. Because if DP isn’t overpowered then this sub-optimal play never occurs! It’s a logic problem at heart just impossible to reach perfect balance. She’s either tremendously overpowered and a top 3 character or she’s a gamble that isn’t worth it 90% of the time. For game balance the latter is probably best.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
Hmmm…that’s kinda why I’m pretty complacent with where Phoenix is at I guess. If Dark Phoenix is going to be running shit on people still then at least it’s easier to deal with her before that point.
Missing the point.
They asked for a game with the same stress as MvC2 with the same brokenness and they got what they asked for with a game that might even be more broken.
If you’re saying MvC3 is a garbage game because it’s one where people die from one touch then you’re saying that MvC2 is a gabage game as well. All MvC3 did was bring that ToD brokenness to the masses.
i hate on viscant cuz im old and cheap too but i cant even get to evo let alone win it.
I would say a bigger problem with MVC3 even past the TOD aspect is the ease of conversion into said TOD’s. These c.L’s x 4’s into combos and ground bounces into XF’s that lead to dead characters, it just makes it too easy. It’s the same problem I had with Vanilla SFIV with trades into ultras that you can NEVER EVER miss and things like Rufus’s j.HK giving you a 45 second long hit confirm into ultra but other characters randomly have super tight timings for their ultra setups. In MVC2 I dunno…it just seemed like more work was done to get into position to land big combos so it at least gave the effect that there was more of a back and forth DBZ style fight between characters. In MVC3 it’s just whoever gets tagged by the strayest of everything alwyas gets put in a 10 20 + hit combo everytime. It’s like something you should just expect in MVC3 whereas in MVC2 it was more something with the right spacing and execution would happen.
Ultimate sounds like it will fix that side of things a bit too but it’ll never be as interesting as MVC2. The average swung normal will still be easy enough to convert into combos I feel. As long as it’s just not Vanilla MVC3 easy I’ll deal at that point.
Why do people hate Noel Brown? Prefer if you would just pm me your reason…
I’m thinking Iron First is going to suffer from this. In a game where people are in the air most of the time, having ground combos is not gonna be pretty.
I think this is phoenix’s best strength, to be honest. Strategically, it is a pincer attack (or should I say pincer defense) - should they take Wesker and risk Dark Phoenix, or try to take Phoenix and risk Wesker AND failing killing phoenix? I personally believe you figured out MVC3 for Evo and deserved to win it. Personally, I thought maybe the most effective way to beat Wesker/Haggar/Phoenix is to kill Wesker as efficiently as possible without letting your team get too close to five, then run away from Haggar. You’d have about 3 meter with one of the slower characters in the game and a Phoenix that could chase down but would die too easily.
Either way, I hope you figure out Ultimate, and it’s always great to understand thought processes of the great players of the game. Thanks.
THIS!!! But it is funny when the stream blows up. And some of the comments are hilarious.
I just like to type in the stream chat once in a while and see random people tell me to “go back to tekken”. Even though I only play Tekken casually.
Actually most of the fight is done on the ground rather than air, Iron fist will be a great point character and i am quite sure his health will be around 950-1mill
Spencer should be able to help with that.
THIS!!! Like you figured people would have teams on reserved for this. and stop anchoring haggar people.
most of the ‘anti-phoenix’ tech is either very highly hypothetical or kind of crippling your team to take.
And the counterpicks aren’t nearly so absolute as people imply.
people overhyping anti phoenix tech =/ if you’re running x/x/spidey just to counter phoenix you’re running a way worse team and would be better off playing x/x/phoenix. only reason x/x/spidey would win is if you’re just a better player than the phoenix player and can take their x/x. Spidey is pretty awful against phoenix, so good luck getting that kill off of maximum spidey. It’s just gotta be set up correctly and it’s not feasible if you’re running spiderman SOLELY for the anti phoenix.
And Spidey’s the easiest one to nab phoenix with. She hulk’s is not as good, and Skrull’s is awful.