If Daigo mained Akuma would he be the best player in the world once again?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
421

The one thing that’s funny in all of this?

Even if the air fireball is godlike, it’s not where Akuma’s damage is. Ryu has an edge in footsies and short range fireball game. His damage is in that same place. Akuma’s damage is in that same range from footsies and jumpin mixups.

cr.mk is not only 80 points, it’s also a fireball and a focus break most of the time.

You’re not going to be vortexed all day. Ryu can’t be tatsu-swept. That cuts down on the repeatability of Akuma’s mixups very severely. You need to fadc, go for raw throws or crossup tatsus to maintain okizeme pressure, which is distinctly suboptimal and much more predictable than the usual fare.

If you’d take Akuma’s sweep any day over Ryu’s cr.mk, and you think Akuma is a better version of Ryu, why are you playing Ryu and not Akuma in the first place? Seems like you’re just making yourself miserable.

422

I didn’t say the button sucked. I said it isn’t absolutely dominant in the match up.

I said if you stick out c.MK at the same time I stick out sweep the sweep gets tagged. One of the annoying properties of the sweep is that it extends the hurt box forward at the start up frames all the way till recovery. There isn’t a range I can sweep where c.MK can not tag the sweep. If both buttons are active at the same time c.MK wins. So if you latch on to my sweep timing I will be taking plenty of damage.

If you actually want to see an extreme example. Go to training mode and set Bison to do s.MK. Then stand outside of its range. Try to time the sweep during Bison’s active frames and observe how far back this can tag the sweep. Bison can tag it at least around a half screen’s width.

For as good as the sweep is, the button is meant to be thrown out when the opponent is not poking. It has it’s share of troubles.

If I am hitting you with big meterless damage combos consistently with Akuma, I am going to be straight forward, you just suck. Akuma doesn’t get many of those against Ryu outside of making a really good read on a fireball.

If you are getting vortexed all day that you can’t build meter that means you have a ton of work to do.

First of all c.MK leads into more damage than 80. With two bars you can do a FADC combo that hits for a decent amount. With one you can do at least c.MK > Fireball not to mention if Akuma has his back in the corner c.MK all of sudden becomes a game breaker with one meter.

If I am playing a good Ryu he usually ends up with 3 bar or super by round 3. Ryu builds plenty of meter against Akuma. The thing about this match up is neither character needs to burn meter except when they get an opening so both characters usually have a ton of excess meter. You see Daigo has super by round 2 or 3 in most of the 25th matches against Infiltration.

It’s one of the things Akuma has to be wary of because when Ryu gets super Akuma’s options drop fast

First I didn’t say it was easy to avoid, I said unlike many of the other characters who actually get vortexed to death, if you land any major damage (IE more than 180 damage) you lose all ability to vortex Ryu further. So Ryu is not a character who gets looped to death like everyone is talking about. Usually one sweep gives you a chance to land one combo and its usually somewhere around 100-200 damage. It isn’t exactly massive against Ryu. You might get one dive kick to land once in a while

The only set up any Akuma should be consistently using against Ryu is the DF on top of his head. Everything else is horrible against Ryu. With this mix up you have to deal with the safe dive kick and the cross up palm into low or grab (Both generally are beat by grabbing). Which is exactly what you see Infiltration use. You can deal with both options if you guess correctly, but this is the only mix up you should be getting hit by consistently.

The cross up tatsu mix up can actually be option selected. The key with that mix up is the tatsu hits later than a normal jump so you can rhythmically hold back and move forward without even guessing and you cover both options. Hell there is even a DP OS where you either block or DP. Even a simple way to beat cross up tatsu is c.MK under and punish it. I only ever use it against average players who don’t know how to defend against it because I usually end up eating more damage going for it than the opponent does.

Against Ryu the solid mix ups don’t lead back into a hard knockdown outside of empty jump throw which isn’t exactly the strongest mix up either as its prone to getting uppercutted. If you are getting looped then you need to hit the lab and work on that because none of the loopable mix ups are abusable against Ryu.

The thing Ryu players need to stop acting like Ryu can’t do anything in the match up. I’ve been playing this damn match up for 4 years and for 4 years it has always been a difficult match up to play. If the Ryu player knows his stuff this is far from free. Akuma has to work for every inch he can and so does Ryu. To me that is not a bad match up if both characters have to work hard to win.

423

That is straight up bs man. Link me to a scientific study that backs up your claim . I just quickly browsed the internet and after reading 5 or 6 articles , the avg reaction time was around 200 milliseconds with some reported claims lower than 50 milliseconds. You just threw that out there saying its pretty well documented science.

What I think is reaction is not reaction , it is anticipation? Umm that’s exactly what I said.
I said " You are anticipating the fireball which allows you to react faster."
You think focus dashing is 100% guess work?? . It’s anticipation and reaction, as much as anti airing, it’s just more difficult.
For a smart and knowledgeable guy you have come out with some strange stuff too that leaves me questioning the good stuff you’ve said.

There are no Ryu players claiming they can’t do anything in this matchup. It’s hard to quantify it. The scale used for tier lists , i.e. 1-10 is so rough it masks some of the matchups that are very slightly in anothers favour. I know they are just general estimates but to use a higher scale, for example 1-1000 is more accurate. If I was asked for a number, I feel it’s Akuma 525:475 ryu. I’m not trying to say it’s like 6-4 or something. That indicates a sizeable advantage which I am in no way suggesting.

424

You stuff their DP’s from the max distance sweep setup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkv_IDrCwX8

425

sigh Time to school a scrub.

http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/lab/110/reaction.htm#Mean%20Times

What has education come to these days. That’s from an .EDU website which references the journal articles it cites and I’ll quote the lines so you don’t have to get off your ass to read it since you seem to be bad at finding this stuff.

The number you quoted is the reaction time for someone staring at a light waiting for it to turn on. That’s known as an impluse response or in the context of the site I gave a simple reaction time. You are waiting for one and only one result. It has been shown when people have to make a CHOICE that the reaction time increases significantly. As quoted there is scientific literature which clocks complex reaction time at 384 ms or 23 frames.

I hate to tell you fighting games fall into the category of complex stimulus.

Oh and there is this little gem someone showed me a while ago if you aren’t convinced.

You are welcome to test this out using this handy app.

So now before you call someone full of shit you might do your damn research both in Street Fighter and in Science.

-Signed: A fucking scientist who is sick of people on the internet.

Edit: Here I feel like being such a nice guy here is even the references if you so feel like finding them

Happy? I’m going to sleep now.

426

^
Blowup incoming. Does anyone have popcorn? :'D

427

if you guys want to test the 12-15 frames reaction thing. go into third strike training mode and try to confirm Ken’s low forward into SA3 on a random block CPU. you have 13f to confirm.

or I can just save you time. you can’t confirm it. in match you’ll see low forward into SA3 confirms, and this is a result of seeing someone standing up, or sticking out a move. you cannot actually confirm a low forward into SA3 on block/hit stimulus.

so in the same vein, you’ve got quite a journey to prove that you can truly react to a 12-15f anything.

You are misunderstanding. The question is not “what do I do when I see the fireball.” The question is “can I react to fireball when he can throw a fireball or do five other things and I don’t know what he will do or when exactly he will do it.” You cannot truly react to that. You can make an educated guess at best. Which is a read, not a reaction.

428

It also depends on what you are trying to react to, right?
I remember watching the video about Xiao Hai reacting to Ryu’s fireball with U1, by watching the meter and not the screen, as he knew that Daigo will use the EX one.

429

A lot of times you are reacting to “cues” or things that give you extra time to process what is coming. For instance one thing players who play fireball characters do is they tend to bob down and up as they are inputting the fireball motion. One of the things top players try to do is to remove visual cues and obvious patterns, but they can only do so much in this regard so even at the top level you still have this happen.

The best case scenario is if I have the motion already buffered where I only have to hit the 3 buttons to complete the motion, but to do this I had to know well in advance a fireball was coming at this specific time.

But even in the best cases a lot of time about 18-20 frames is the high end of a truly reactible time frame. Anything faster and it is completely guessing.

No I am condescending to players like you who clearly don’t understand what they are talking about and still continue to be head strong about their opinion. Especially ones who call me full of shit when I was quoting scientific literature

I somehow knew you were going to say something along these lines. Even having your argument thrown down and beat to a pulp, you still continue down this line?

A simple reaction is me sitting with my hands directly one button that completes the task while I am currently doing nothing else. It’s me sitting in a room waiting for a light to turn on. A fighting game has 6 buttons, a joy stick, multiple situations, and I have to think about what you are doing while maintaining my spacing.

When I am playing against Ryu I am not reacting to just a fireball. I am reacting to a fireball, an ex fireball, a walk forward c.MK, and forward HP. That’s 4 options my brain needs to process and 4 of those require different answers on my part. That already counts as complex stimulus if you were actually paying attention.

Or in other words, you don’t have a leg to stand on with this one. It doesn’t count as simple stimulus and in practice 18 frame moves are hard to react to. Viper’s overhead would be blocked every time if that were the case.

When you have no argument left you attack the person. Nice. Way to go finding a video from well over a year and a half ago where I placed 4th in a tournament of 78 people. The match you show was top 8 in winners bracket. Clearly shows I am a total scrub right? Yea I got beat in that game because it was only the second time I played Jakob. In more recent fights I’ve done better.

Oh and if you want something more recently.

http://www.finalround.org/results/FR16ae2012.cfm

I find it entertaining you had your point of “This is BS, you are lying” completely destroyed and yet you still try to wiggle your way out in the face of overwhelming proof.

430

I respect your opinion, but I cannot silently endorse your use of homophobic language.

http://thinkb4youspeak.com/

Thanks.

431

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-otAJrtY-w

432

It’s not nearly as cool when you are actually gay and people call you faggot in attempt to debase you. But that could just be me!

433

But dude, nobody calls people faggots for being homosexual, it like, you know, lost that meaning of the word by now :smiley:

434

Just when you thought this thread couldn’t get more derailed…

435

Faggot is the new asshole!

Source: South Park, Chris Rock, Louis CK

436

well, i’ll continue to speak up about it in any case :wink:

437

Why do you know? Are you a faggot? I might be in the minority but I’m with Granpa on this…

438

Wtf are you arguing…you really underestimate the reaction time of the top players

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCLFbUfYeco

2:30-2:42, they dance around in and out of footsie range. Daigo does no fireball, Shiro does not flinch and does no pre-emptive superarmor attack. Daigo eventually throws a fireball (at point blank), eats superarmor for the loss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpWc_KvZqAs

Again, 4:00-4:15, the player dance in and out of footsie range. Ralf does no pokes, Kasumi does no counters…Ralf FINALLY decides to throw one far C, gets SDM countered only then.

There’s countless other examples. The average human reaction time is about 200ms if they know what they are looking for…but this is the average human reaction time. The reaction time of the top players is faster. At say, 150ms, you are talking under 10 frames reaction time.

There are also many option selects that aren’t really option selects, or good players don’t actually need to enter an option select to actually get that punish…I’m seeing almost everything being called an OS now, getting annoying. Reaction times are underestimated of the grandmaster level players.

439

No you overestimate what a human is capable of.

The better you get at fighting games the more you realize that top players aren’t that much different from you or me in reactions. What they excel at “cutting corners” which makes their reaction time look much faster than it is.

You don’t even understand what you are looking at! That isn’t a reaction it is a read!

http://imgur.com/iMRFjEu

If you slow it down you can see Shiro input the rekka before the fireball even came out. Shiro bobbed down and up (Common with the QCF motion) well before the mythical 10 frame reaction window which means he was inputting the command simultaneously with the fireball animation!

Aka he was reacting to the dash NOT THE FIREBALL. He read the fireball from Daigo’s movement. In fact if you watch a couple seconds before you see Daigo do Dash Forward > c.MK. So Shiro caught on to that movement and next time he saw the dash he did the Rekka expecting Daigo to throw something out. He may not have been specifically looking for a fireball either. He may have been expecting a c.MK and not a fireball. Who knows?

But to say that is reaction is hogwash.

Again a read not reaction. Learn the difference.

This number’s been debunked again and again. Stop using basic google searches for this stuff because this number is the wrong number. It’s been proven scientifically that this number is only good in highly simplistic cases.

Any situation where your brain has to make a decision takes much longer than this. Fighting games completely fall in this category.

440

Also, far before Shiro’s miraculous fireball read reaction, he just blocks multiple solar plexus strikes. So he magically can react to a 13 frame fireball but not a 17 frame gut punch that gets beaten by literally everything?

I still want an answer to this:

If that is what you think, why on earth are you still playing Ryu? If you love his main footsie poke so much more than Ryu’s and consider him just a better version of the same character, why don’t you play him? He’s like, the most similar character to Ryu in the whole game buttons-wise. Why make yourself miserable using an inferior version of the same damn character?

Or don’t you do it so you can feel proud about not using a “broken” character? Or do you actually just do wose with Akuma than Ryu? But if the latter, how can that be, he is a better version of Ryu.