Edit: woop, wrong thread.
I’m sorry I had to come back in , the level of nonsense is reaching a new high.
Akuma : 6f startup, 24f recovery , -9f adv. on block.
Ryu : 5f startup, 28f recovery , -14f adv. on block.
It’s become a trend in this thread to not give all the relevant information . Why didn’t you mention hitboxes or ryu’s inferior recovery and walkspeed? Both are huge factors in the footsie battle. Akuma can bob in out just outside of ryu’s cr.mk range( check the hurtbox on ryu’s cr.mk also) . This is the perfect spot for akuma and it allows him to edge out ryu in the footsie battle.
Lol @ “Daigo chooses not to do it doesn’t mean he can’t”. What the hell does that mean? If it was the optimal move in that situation, he would be doing it. It’s more difficult to whiff-punish akuma’s sweep because of his range, recovery, pushback on block and walkspeed. 1f slower startup is the only disadvantage and it’s a pretty minimal contribution when you look at the other factors.
I haven’t even mentioned the superior reward for akuma on landing a sweep compared with ryu. I think we are all familiar with this…
If akuma maintains his position outside cr.mk range, then it becomes a much less threatening move. In the same vein, Ryu must respect akuma’s sweep moreso than akuma must fear the cr.mk. Ryu hits a bit harder but akuma sets up the vortex. Akuma’s walk speed allows him to move in and out of this optimal range fishing for the knockdown , whereas ryu must gamble more which is a less reliable and sustainable strategy than anything akuma must follow. We saw Daigo had to gamble in order to take the set in winners finals sf25 tournament because his usual footsie tactics were no longer effective. He switched it up a bit with solar plexus but that is not a sustainable tactic either at the highest level of play.
It has nothing to do with frames if you plan to divekick on top of his head. Ryu’s dp hitbox covers about a third of the width of his body and roughly the same width in front of him, from just below shoulder height to feet. The top of his body/head is completely vulnerable.
Some of you are probably aware of Arturo’s analysis of the sf25 battle between Daigo and Infiltraton. It’s kinda long but pretty good. For those who aren’t familiar with it, here it is :
The recovery on Akuma’s sweep on whiff is enough for me walk up and whiff-punish with Yang’s cr. MK. Sure Yang has a godlike walk-speed, but that cr. MK is stubby as hell. I’ve done it consistently against Akuma’s and unless all the Akuma players I’ve played just decided to not block after whiffing a sweep, I’m pretty sure it’s whiff-punishable by Ryu’s sweep.
I know it’s harder to punish Akuma’s sweep when it’s blocked max-range, but at that range it is easy to make it whiff and Ryu definitely can punish it.
With the Daigo-comment, I was referring to him playing Infiltration at 25th and not punishing the sweep though Infiltration just kept spamming it, when Daigo could’ve whiff-punished it just fine. He froze like a beginner freezes against a Ken spamming LP SRK.
The main reason Tokido gets destroyed by Daigo all the time is because he tries to vortex him. That’s not going to work on Daigo. You have to be better than Daigo and punish his mistakes, bait him etc…
Komatik ,
are you just disagreeing with my posts for the sake of it? Nothing I said is incorrect.
Arturo’s analysis pretty much backs up everything I am saying but whatever he’s just a random forum monster too??
@ Julpero , a good Akuma is very rarely whiffing the sweep in the first place. If the sweep is blocked from max range, the pushback makes it very difficult to punish.
I haven’t seen this but I’m a fan of Daigo and I hate it when Arturo goes in on him constantly for no reason. Pretty sure he’s jealous of Daigo’s success. Anyway if this is one of those vids I won’t bother watching it.
^^
No it’s a very fair analysis imo. Worth a watch. He could’ve reduced it to under an hour but I think it was his first video of this type. He will obviously learn from it.
Ryus MP srk has no hurtbox though, no matter WHERE I plan to divekick the DP eventually gets me or whiffs but never gets stuffed
I was wrong about HP srk, I can stuff that too, as well as LP srk, but MP srk with both him, Ken, and Akuma will beat my divekicks every single time no matter where I space it, OR best case scenario the kick will whiff behind them, it never stuffs them though
Arturo’s analysis was painful, IMHO. Doesn’t play either character, hasn’t watched a lot of matches with a bit of an analytical eye, grabs some frame data and off he goes. I’d love to hear his thoughts on some Rose or Dhalsim matches, but not Daigo vs. Infiltration.
The disagree was because you claimed Julpero’s post was nonsense. It IS strange how little Daigo utilizes sweep in the match. It’s not his go-to button like it is for Infiltration, sure, but if Infiltration can sweep Daigo, the reverse is also true. Not doing it sends a message of “just stay there, own that range all you want”, which is a recipe for disaster against someone of Infiltration’s caliber. At that range also, st.lk to make the sweep whiff, immediate sweep is pretty nice. Because it whiffs there’s no pushback and you can just tag him.
The problem is really Infiltration placed his sweeps INCREDIBLY well, by either hitting them or forcing very far sweep blocks they were very hard to punish sweep for Ryu.
It’s also incredibly dangerous for Ryu to just blindly throw out sweep because that’s both whiff and block punishable by Demon, which Infiltration did to him early on in the sets.
I mean, you could say maybe Daigo went away from that tool TOO much and Infiltration got “Inside his head” about it, or maybe Daigo was just being more conservative with the Sweeps and didn’t see as many opportunities to break them out in that set.
It’s been a long time since I watched it, but I’m pretty sure infiltration never threw out any blind sweeps. They were either very long range blocks or punish hits.
If Akuma is outside of c.MK range he is pretty much outside of sweep range and in a range which Ryu controls better because now this is the are where Akuma’s slow fireballs are not good while Ryu’s are fast enough to make it hard to react to.
This is the thing you guys don’t understand. Ryu and Akuma have the same optimal ranges in the match up and Ryu generally controls both better. If Akuma didn’t have a fast walk speed this would be miserable match up.
The match up as it stands is a game of making Ryu figure out to use the fireball or c.MK and it isn’t easy by any means. If you stay too long in either range you will be treading water.
I am going to straight up call bullshit.
You haven’t played the match up against good players if this is what you think. c.MK is a huge threat at all ranges I can throw out the sweep. If I get tagged by c.MK when Ryu has 3 bars and Ultra you may as well call it the round.
Which doesn’t hit very hard against Ryu as I just said. If the Ryu player isn’t mashing DP like a scrub you actually can’t get sustained damage against Ryu. Hell even when you watch Infiltration vs Daigo what was the way to get a repeated knockdown? Empty jump grab. Not exactly a high damage output.
I am getting sick of the “OMG VORTEX!” because people keep showing me they don’t understand it.
If it wasn’t for the walk speed Ryu would straight up control the neutral game. It is the equalizer not the domination factor.
Again…Bullshit. Akuma has to take massive gambles in the match up. Infiltration took several, but they worked so that’s why they don’t look risky.
His footsie tactics were just fine. He had to adjust for Infiltrations play style, but to think Daigo was playing inferior footsies is laughable.
He was using the solar plex to train Infiltration to stop trying to focus because that happened at Evo. He was changing up his fireball timings and was actually very effective with it in Winners finals. Infiltration caught on in grand however.
Akuma plays reactionary in the neutral game because he can’t dictate the pace. There is no way in hell you can lose a match up if you control the neutral game!
First off you’re greatly exaggerating the difference in fireballs. I didn’t know a frame difference constituted the use of polarised adjectives. Ryu’s normal fb’s startup a frame faster and recover a frame slower. His EX is definitely a good bit better though. Ryu’s fb traverse the screen ~ 5% faster. Focus attack shuts it down if you are trained properly to react to it. Ryu does not control the optimal range better. When you are as good as Infiltration , you just stay outside the cr.mk range waiting to sweep. He is also waiting to focus attack or jump fireballs at this range . Ryu’s bread n butter game is reduced significantly because of these reasons.
What use is cr.mk if he can’t get into the range to use it? Akuma’s sweep is so godlike when spaced correctly that you have to respect that range or GAMBLE he won’t react fast enough. You say " if you get tagged…" . Exactly , IF!! Those very rare occasions…
I didn’t say the vortex hits hard against ryu. You misinterpreted that. A cyle of 3/4 mixups > one 3 bar combo from ryu. The vortex is actually not that effective against ryu but it is still dangerous because it leads to a cycle of knockdowns and guessing games, some of which do inflict good damage. Empty jump grab is still a good situation for akuma–>another guessing game and sooner or later that damage is coming.
You forget that akuma’s jump back air fireball more than makes up for his neutral game. I want to point out too since you’re on a herp derp " he doesn’t know what a vortex is" ,that it’s not about damage. It’s called dictating the flow of the match. Akuma does it against almost every character. Guessing games, jump back air fb building meter and space safely, well spaced forward air fb to allow safe advancing pressure, etc.
Calling bs on gambling in the matchup? Newsflash , everyone has to gamble a certain amount in fighting games–typically calculated risk. Akuma absolutely does not need to gamble anyway near as much as ryu does. What gambles did he take apart from a wakeup meterless dp and far walk up throw?? He only did the dp when he was a round up.
I never questioned Daigo’s footsie tactics. I questioned ryu’s . Again, you misinterpreted what I mean.
“Akuma plays reactionary in the neutral game because he can’t dictate the pace”. I’m calling bs!
I am not exaggerating jack, 1 frame makes a crap ton of difference in a close quarters and also Ryu’s EX is 2 frames faster start up in addition to being a faster fireball.
I play both characters and the two play vastly different fireball games based off 1 frame difference start up and 2 frame difference recovery.
You don’t react with focus, you make a guess (Aka a gamble which you said Akuma doesn’t take any). You can’t react in 12-15 frames. You have to know it is coming.
If I am raw focusing I am asking to get Ultraed by a top player. That’s why the majority of the focuses used were quick instant focuses.
Akuma has the same problem where if you predict my sweep or fireball you can focus through for a free. So again this weakness is not specific to Ryu
If you can’t c.MK me I can’t sweep you. What part about that don’t you get?
And rare occasions? What?! Even if they are rare (Which they aren’t) they hit hard on a character with no health.
It doesn’t lead to a god damn cycle of knockdowns. What part about “If you get any significant damage Ryu is out” don’t you get? That’s my whole damn point. The only way to cycle knockdowns on Ryu is to go for completely unsafe stuff or less than optimal damage (100 damage on a throw, woopie!). If I get any real damage I can’t end it in anything that keeps Ryu inside of the mix up game without burning bar to raw sweep which gives me an inferior knockdown.
Hell if you go back to Daigo vs Infiltration you can see most of the mix ups ended after one cycle maybe two cycles. You aren’t going to lose the match off a single knockdown unless you guess wrong 6 or 7 times.
No, it doesn’t. The only range Akuma can use the airfireball safely against Ryu is full screen. The same range Ryu is just fine at. Hell watch Infiltration vs Daigo and watch how often and what ranges he uses the airfireball. Compare this to a match up like Fei who you can actually zone fairly well.
Hell you see Daigo PUNISHING ex air fireball on block which Ryu can do if Akuma hits it high in the air.
And if you watch Daigo vs Akuma enough you notice if Akuma ever neutral jumps in front of him he buffers Ultra because the only threat is Air fireball.
So no. The airfireball is not a game changer IN THIS MATCH UP.
No calling bullshit that Ryu has to gamble more than Akuma.
Because jumping in, focusing on a guess, etc against a character who can hit you hard in those situations isn’t a gamble right?
If you can’t see the gambles he had to take then basically you don’t understand what you are even watching.
At this point I can tell by your response you don’t understand the match up.
Are you actually serious? Of course you don’t solely react. You are anticipating the fireball which allows you to react faster. It is not a guess . You are so wrong there. I never said the air fireball is a " gamechanger", wtf are you on about? It’s just another facet of akuma’s game that ryu doesn’t have, regardless of small or how big an advantage it is.
" you can’t react in 12-15 frames" . Ok dude, I’m not responding to anything else. That statement alone says it all.
It’s completely a guess. If you think it isn’t go play Daigo and tell me how easy it is to react to his fireballs. Top players aren’t scrubs who throw fireballs with predictable timing. They are hard as hell to get a read on and it is also hard as hell to hide the fact you are going to focus.
Why do you think Daigo is even doing foward HP against Infiltration? To stop him from taking guesses with the focus attacks.
Focus dashing through is 100% guess work.
So why are you talking about it in the context of Akuma vs Ryu when THAT’S WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!
We aren’t talking about who is better between the two, we are asking HOW IS THE MATCH UP. The airfireball doesn’t give Akuma enough of an advantage IN THE MATCH UP so it doesn’t lend itself to making the match up bad for Ryu.
What’s so bloody hard to understand about that?
A match up isn’t just bad because a character has good tools. It is bad because something that character can do completely counters the other. Hell Blanka is technically a much worse character than Akuma yet he counters Akuma so well.
You can’t react in 15 frames it’s a physic fact. Hell most overheads are 18 frames or slower and people still get hit by those. A person if they have one and only one reaction to a simulation can react fast, but in fighting game conditions you have to make a choice and with choice reactions your reaction time is much slower. This is pretty well documented science.
What you think is reaction is not reaction, it is anticipation. The problem is the players you play don’t know how to mess with their fireball timing you don’t know the difference between the two.
I love how this guy is downplaying how godlike Akuma’s sweep is. I’ll take that ANY day over Ryu’s mk. The sweep opens up so many possibilities for METERLESS big damage combos. What the hell is Ryu gonna do with 80 damage from a mk you need 3 meters to do any real damage but how are you gonna build meter if you’re getting vortexed all day. Also if you say Akuma’s mix up is so easy to avoid please list his setups and how Ryu can counter or avoid them. I actually would really like to know this because the Ryu match up thread on srk is ass and people give very general information that is useless against high level players. Its literally the worst character forum on srk.
This is so dumb lol