Ive got a noob question but its not about execution or gameplay techniques.
I was just wondering, if Capcom wants to break more casual players into the fighting genre why go the route of adding like 6 or 7 different new mechanics at a time (SFxT) and things like gem systems (SFxT and to a lesser extent UMvC3) instead of just adding an in depth tutorial system? I know they say the learning curve is the problem with most casuals not being able to grasp on and giving up quick, but couldnt that be fixed by adding a tutorial mode or more in depth trials in the vein of SF4? It is hard when theres no single player experiance and youre just thrown to the wolves online. Maybe part of SF4s mainstream appeal was that players could spend time gradually improving through 20 something trials, so they had references on what to do. (or where to begin at least) The Trials for MvC3 only had 10 missions per character which it felt like you already had to know what you were doing in order to pull them off, and the 3rd strike trials were only 5 per character which are impossible if you havent already sunken a load of time into the game. Maybe 20 or more trials where you can choose to watch the cpu do the trial before or during the attempt would help?
All the new cross arts, pandora, cross counter, etc… seems like its doing the opposite of being casual friendly, while the gems seem like a cheat or cash grab thats bad for the community (tourneys) and casuals (like myself who are gonna have enough on our plates with the new mechanics, plus the hundreds of gems in the game default). Why not just focus on a better story, and fleshed out tutorial mode to garner new gamers?
Im interested in hardcore players and especially noobs (what this section is for) opinions. Has this specific option been discussed before? It just feels like in an attempt to broaden the audience, they are alienating old AND new with all this gimmickery. A deep tutorial would be good for everyone IMO. Less scrubs for the hardcore guys to beat and less getting beat by hardcore guys for the noobs.
I think everyone would like some decent tutorials in their fighting games. Trials don’t cut it imo, but I guess most companies don’t really see this as a priority.
Because that’s takes effort. Bad players don’t want to learn how to play. They want to hit buttons and win. The hand holding mechanics are to baby bad players. They aren’t going to step it up, so Capcom is adding shit to give them a better chance vs those that are better. It won’t help in the end because mechanics can’t make up for experience but it’ll get Capcom money. Win/Win?
The only way that you can make a Capcom game “noob friendly” and appeal more to the casual gamer is to do it the way that Netherrealm Studios does it: teaching you how to do everything that a character is capable of down to the normal attacks. Now I know that most people can figure out how to use the light, medium and heavy punch/kick buttons. However, not everybody does. The tutorials have to be explained in a way that even someone’s grandmother can learn how to play. This way the casual gamer can learn the basics from normal punches and kicks to special moves to crossups. However, with the rate that they are going, I doubt that this would be possible.
If youre serious about getting better all you really need is training mode and maybe trials. Gems and ultras and x factor wont help the newer players out…it just turns into something the better players can abuse. I think fighting games arent really meant for casual players. Thats why I like them, it actually means something if youre good at them.With that being said, fuck the casual players and make games for the people that are willing to grind it out and get better without cheap gimmick bullshit.
Capcom needs to implement a GOOD TUTORIAL SYSTEM. This doesnt mean some half assed attempt at explaining zoning. Make really practical situations appear, explain every concept.
Offer a casual mode thats more like Smash Brothers. Some people simply wont ever want to play against good players. Everything is cheap to them.
Actually explain the story for once, have a story mode like MK did (without all the unlocking crap)
This way, casuals get what they want, and so do we with every release. Its really not rocket science, but Capcoms budgeting department are scumbags and wont let too much experimentation take place.
That’s the problem for some casual gamers who are new to the FG genre. The trials aren’t going to prepare them for a lot of the techniques that are integral to the game, finishing one trial and moving on doesn’t teach anyone anything because they have no rhyme or reason behind them to the casual player - yes, we can easily look at a trial and understand the concept behind it because we’ve been playing for many years, they haven’t. I doubt anyone hits ‘retry’ in trials over and over and over to perfect it. Hell even a CPU demo of the trial would help a lot more than they currently stand, at least that way the casuals would know exactly what to do.
The casual gamer also may not understand the concept that to complete some trials (Juri for example) that they have to ‘store’ specials or be standing far, or close for a particular starting hit. A good tutorial akin to the likes of BB would be a good starting point for beginners and would be far more encouraging than a set of 20 trials with no instruction - I’d be very surprised if every casual gamer can even complete trials 20-24 with all characters.
Has anyone notice how some company been releasing game with out manuals? I personally like manuals to study some thing the game lacks to teach, but lately a lot of game have ditch manuals for in game tutorial. I think this has some impact.
Reminds me of an old trend where the manual for a PC game used to come on the CD-Rom as a pdf. Mind you, I can remember when manuals were a whole fucking book load of information, especially some of the really old Stealth Bomber games. But yeah, it’s strange, I always like manuals if only for the illustrations - Ah’ like dem books wiv them thar pic-choors!
The european “manual” for the disc release of Arcana Heart 3 was basically a page with copyrights, a page with default controls and another one telling you to go to their website for any additional information.
It was amazing.
On topic, fighting games are supposed to have a high learning curve and a complex metagame, that’s the whole appeal and the whole point. Making them beginner friendly inevitably takes away from that. Nowadays, any additional in-depth information you might want is easily accessible with an internet connection - players of today have it real easy with access to thousands and thousands of videos and articles about game mechanics. If someone actually needs more than that, fuck’em.
If you have really given it some thought the answer should be obvious.
Didn’t you notice the new mechanics are not there to make the gameplay deeper and more complicated but to offer the illusion of instant solutions instead of getting better as a player? That’s how they cater to newbies.
“Are you losing? Don’t worry you may still have a chance with the ultra/xfactor/pandora!”
Psychology 101- People may give away 10 rounds by whiffing that hail Mary ultra, but if they got lucky with it once and took a round against a better player, (tends to happen sometimes online when you screw up a link or whatever) they’ll remember that moment over all the loses and have the impression they are getting better at the game and that will be what makes them love the game over other FGs. (Where they get raped 100% of the time and can’t win rounds by luck at all)
So Capcom actually caters to casuals way better than you give them credit for.
Tutorials on the other hand cater to hardcore players- People who really want to learn to play and work hard for it (look at VF4E for example) but casuals would rather have the instant solution and the illusion of skill.
There is, but from a certain viewpoint, I can understand why casuals would feel that they shouldn’t have to go elsewhere to research certain elements and a tutorial system would cover this.
I think you’re making a sweeping generalisation with that statement. Not every casual player is a dribbling moron who just wants a win button and I honestly think they have a legitimate requirement for a tutorial or something that will better help them understand their game and its mechanics. I’m not saying people need to be spoon fed either, and quite frankly, if it would help them see the game in a different light to “oh you’re spamming” and other negative throw-away comments like it, the more the better the FG community will be.
But that is the thing - even when you make basic information readily available in the manual - I’m talking very simple system mechanics - like for example how burst used to work in Calamity Trigger, casual players usually just don’t care enough to really digest that information, or sometime even aknowledge it. They would burst like mad at the slightest touch and lose 30% of their life in the process by themselves.
However you slice it, casual players don’t care enough, and whatever retard-proof way of getting them to actually learn you might think of - it’s not going to work, I guarantee it. I generally don’t agree with Novril’s vitriol but he is right in saying that the moment someone starts to research that information and actually reflect on it, he ceases to be a casual player (and at that point tutorials and manuals are all but useless as he is going to be searching for all the outside info he can get his hands on).
I’ve encountered more or less two camps of casual players with gripes against the games and the scene in general: Ones who present their case well and you can tend to sympathise with them regarding how it’s perhaps daunting to understand the intricacies from the off, and another who almost enjoy the fact that fighting games require more investment into them for the wrong reasons, as it allows them to point the fingers and accuse the community of being an “old boys club” awash with elitism as it were. I’ve seen and both reasoned with the former and clashed with the latter on various gaming forums.
Now for the former group, you probably draw them in even more by hand holding them a little. They get an understanding of the game via a decent tutorial and are armed with some of the concepts when they start playing, and there is the option to use great resources like SRK here should they want to delve deeper.
…for the latter, you knock that crutch from under them. Arming them with all the information they need to go on and dispell the myths they’ve conjured up about the community and competitive play in general.
You manage to separate those that want to learn from those who can’t get over their egos even more, giving the bad eggs who sit on the sidelines spewing nonsense even less excuses.
In part you can even do away with claims that games are being dumbed down or made more accessible by fleshing out tutorial modes, as the game itself still might have plenty of core mechanics that do require some investment to get the grasp of, again though, decent tutorials even manage to create an illusion of accessibility as the information is there on screen to be used and worked with.
Here on 1:30 Ono repeats what I said in different words:
FACT: Tutorials have nothing to do with the casual AND competitive success of a fighting game.
VF had a good tutorial- Almost no one gave a shit.
Blazblue had a good tutorial- Almost no one gave a shit.
SkullGirls will have a good tutorial- Almost no one will give a shit.
Capcom games only throw out some combo trials at you, but they have Ryu in them- YAYYYYYY!@!@!!@
For me personally having a tutorial is good and important, but I’m a minority. For 99% of the players tutorials are not important and only the having characters they already know and love is important.
I never said they did, I said they could go towards helping with accessibility and helping people understand systems - at the very least, they’d no longer have a reason to bitch about understanding the game mechanics and if they don’t use it, who’s fault is that? My comment was also aimed at your regard of casual gamers - people start as casual gamers before they decide they want to get serious about a genre/game. I also disagree with your generalisation that casual gamers don’t want to learn anything and will all look for an instant solution.
People who are serious enough, will expand their knowledge from other, non-official, sources.
Like we all did since 1993.
I’m not saying that is the ideal solution, but we didn’t let the lack of tutorials stand in our way.
As someone who really is still going through the learning phase in some ways, I can say that my experience has been the complete opposite of everything you’ve said here.
In fact the thing that truly got me into learning to play seriously was Blazblue’s tutorial, I had tried previously with games over the years like MvC2, Soul Calibur games, Mortal Kombat games and even Guilty Gear, I just had no idea what I was doing. Blazblue’s tutorial actually was pretty good, though it didn’t explain everything, it got me a start. Then I looked up online resources and started to really understand all the fundamentals and began working on execution and deeper techniques/strategies. Street Fighter however, I’m still abysmal at, the trials are just useless to someone who doesn’t already know what they’re doing, it doesn’t help at all until you understand the properties of the moves, because it doesn’t show you at all how to use each move in the combo, spacing, links etc. (storing as mentioned earlier)
Everything I’ve learned about Street Fighter really has been through losing continuously online, Ultras are by no means a noob friendly help as you say, because landing them in Street Fighter is pretty difficult against anyone decent. I play Crimson Viper, so obviously any dumb thrown out Ultra just gets me killed, it’s not really different with other characters. The thing I find hardest about Street Fighter is the amount of option selects. As I don’t remember them all, every single action I do, I feel like I am caging myself. If you actually want to make a game more beginner friendly, the first and most important thing to do is lower the importance of difficult links in combos, chains help a lot with hit confirming and combos, also (and obviously it’s difficult because it’s not really in the game’s design to begin with) try to lower the amount of option selects you need to memorise to keep yourself safe.