I’m happy you’re finding use for the release, because I do not use it save for her corner DPS which can do loads of damage. Any other locale though usually means release damage is pretty negligible. I also feel like you consider release as not a resource intensive move, when it is. No other character save for Juri has limitations on their moves, so to view releasing as not using any valuable resource is a twisted logic. It is using a resource more crutch to your character than any other resource, especially as said resource cannot be safely gained back currently.
Air Kunai release especially is pretty useless because of it’s start-up, and it’s poor design of being a charge move. You can’t even do HK command dash into HK release because of this design. Seems like an oversight. Ideally air release would be quick enough to bait throw attempts, but it’s not, even if you jump on the first frame of a throw start-up. That was the one use I had hoped for it. Other than trolling Zangief, but that’s… just Zangief being in struggle’s vill.
Wait… so you’re okay with a knockdown safe variant which uses meter and brings them back in BULK, but you’re not okay with a knockdown safe variant that sneaks ONE back? The entire design of the move is based around greed. Greedily gaining more than one kunai back is when it should become a risky maneuver. I am failing to see the logic. One meter is worth safety and multiple Kunai, but getting a knockdown and losing pressure is not worth ONE Kunai to you?
That’s crazy go nuts resource logic.
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I also think our issue here is where we’re trying to balance Ibuki to. SFV is a game of very weak characters, this has been said and is true for the entire cast. Thus why people aren’t happy with the nerfs running around. Realistically, outside of like a couple nerfs, this game needs mostly buffs. I would prefer if everyone went up to… really, around Chun’s tier. She actually has tools and strong areas.
This game, much like 3S, is a game of mostly underpowered characters. There are also no universal mechanics which make overcoming character to character imbalances easier, so having strong tools is necessary to survive certain match-ups. People seem to think strong tools means ONLY tools going against you are going to be strong – no, it’s both ways.
I never said or implied kunai release wasn’t an resource intensive move. I’m not even sure how you could interpret that considering i’ve said numerous times its relatively not viable in most matchups because of Ibuki’s problem of getting them back. I think the disconnect is how your confusing my words. No single match revolves around one mechanic for any character. Using up a whole stock of kunai on let’s say a shimmy confirm doesn’t automatically mean she still doesn’t have access to ex raida, ex kazekiri, critical art, v-skill, good buttons, the potential to sneak back in a kunai, v-trigger, v-reversal, etc. Your argument suggests it’s an impossible feat to win without Kunai. Some matchups they are invaluable while others they are not. In retrospect it seems to me you may simply be way too reliant on kunai where you view it as a crutch and I view it as an extension.
My desire for an ex reload of sorts in the clearest explanation possible is to open up more practical kunai release situations across more matchups as a result opening up her damage potential more often. I don’t believe she should have free access to kunai stocks from a balancing standpoint because of what they are capable of and what she can do without them.
To answer your other question I am not ok with either variant from the knockdown situations you propose because again I don’t believe she should get them back for free and i’ve said why. It’s to multi-purpose of a tool and she starts every round with a full stock all the while traditional meter still carrying over. I completely agree with her development process balance wise except that an ex reload didn’t exist which again is fine because you have to dip into a resource to get a resource back in bulk. She should have to earn her keep. As for your last two statements I completely disagree. Tier wise with the exception of Ryu, Ken, Chun, Cammy, maybe Necalli and Karin who are the most complete characters in the game gaps are small between the rest and relatively well balanced. I also believe Ryu to be unbelievably overrated as people make him out to be. Karin would be a perfect character but her aa game is garbage which is crucial in this jumpy game. Necalli isn’t particularly scary outside v-trigger. Still don’t understand why he has both a DP and command grab tho which is stupid. Literally only those 6 are a gap above the rest.
The more we discuss ex reload, the more I realize how little I care about actually reloading to begin with. This game already has 2 resources that you work on building and are as much about generating resources as they are about consuming them. If you’re the player who wants to play around building a heavy resource advantage, you already have systems in place to do that. I was drawn to the kunai system to begin with because it was a fundamentally different type of resource, one that you really only could consume. Having an unsafe reload was fine because it wasn’t something you were supposed to get back, so just being able to do so would be something special that required a prediction or unique circumstance.
The fundamental issue everyone seems to be having is actually kind of the same, the value of kunai is not proportional to their scarcity. I mean, if you couldn’t reload at all, but air kunai were plus on hit, could cross up, and did relevant damage, and built more meter, would any of us be complaining about them? I certainly wouldn’t. Unfortunately, at the moment they’re little good for anything more than extending combos for small amounts of additional damage, making random counterpoke attempts safe, and getting in (but only when you blow ex meter on them as well). That’s really not good enough for something you only get 6 of.
I think if Capcom really wants to make the resource shine as something fun and different, kunai need to maintain the same amount of ammunition and become more valuable per stock (increase value while maintaining scarcity), or we need additional stock to start with (maintain value while reducing scarcity). I think my dream scenario would be going up to 8 starting stock, and then creating a system that allowed more kunai release at certain charge intervals (say 30 frames of charge for 2 kunai to be released, 45 for 3, 60 for 4, etc.). Makes throwing out kunai for things like sniping damage or making a random move safe fine, as well as allowing you to precisely control use of kunai for different actions (I would gladly throw 3 of 8 to anti air into a good setup situation. 6 of 6 for the same thing? Eh.). I really thought when we first saw Ibuki in SFV that we were going to have an option to control how many kunai we used in her releases, and not be stuck to wasting everything on the first go.
I think the biggest deviation in our thinking is that you seem to undervalue the intensity of Kunai’s significance, while overvaluing it’s impact. I think to fully grasp Kunai as a skill, we need to analyze (and I did this already a looong time ago) what kunai is in her kit and why it is required to have an ammo system.
To understand why Kunai is what it is, you have to understand what Ibuki lost in her transition to SFV, which is thus:
Her launcher
Most of her target combos
Tsumuji
Hein
Tsujigoe
Kneckbreaker
Super Jumps
Super Jump Cancels/Jump Cancels
There’s more, but those are the important ones, and yes she did gain a couple things, but it is not an equal exchange. So before we look at why Kunai is balanced the way it is, let’s first look at what it was before, and I’ll be using mostly 3S examples, but most apply to SFIV as well. Kunai was a slow, hurtbox raising aerial move meant to be used for zoning and to do delay jump-ins (which were very strong in 3S), they also provided Oki setups on knockdown (more prominent in SFIV than III). However, they were purely an aerial thing. In their transition to SFV, air Kunai lost block stun, hit stun, hurtbox accuracy (hurtbox does not change, it used to move her upwards as the animation suggests), and height restrictions on the both the beginning and end of her jump arc.
That is quite a lot of nerfs, and did push air Kunai into the “weak” required realm of most of SFV’s tools throughout all it’s characters. That alone did not require ammunition. So, having done that, they looked at Ibuki’s arsenal and said, what are the musts? Now, I’ve been saying since before her release that neckbreaker has never been great outside of hard knockdown fighter IV and was a redundant tool, that Tsumuji and Raida were both designed around a parry system and had no place in a game without parries, and Tsujigoe has always been one of the most worthless fighting game moves.
The designers of her were likely thinking they wanted to make her different, as she had been in quite a few games already, yet they thought removing all of her tools of old would annoy fans, so they kept Raida, her signature attack (even though Tsumuji had been in her arsenal for just as long). That is the reason for Raida existing, it is literally a “for nostalgia’s sake” move, it could have easily been removed for something else – anyway, I digress. Then came Tsumuji, and they looked at and thought “this sure is a lot like Nash’s kicks” so in a hopes to replace this with something else, they took to the drawing board. They looked at her SAIII, and we could site this from her Omega IV Ibuki version, that she had a meterless grounded Kunai there. Obviously, they wanted to go with this theme of her being a Kunai throwing ninja – that’s fine, it fits the character, albeit it does alter her preferred range a bit.
Now let’s take the same but slightly extended list from above and figure out what replaced what…
Her launcher Replaced with grounded EX Kunai. Likely considering it too strong to have a meterless launcher (though Gouki’s release says fuck you to that train of thought.)
Most of her target combos Many, many targets were lost. The ones ending in launcher/5HK were considered too strong, as starting any target from sweep would break SFV’s design of sweeps being unsafe (even though it would still be unsafe). Her 4MP targets were all removed. LP starters simplified due to proximity normal removal.
Tsumuji Grounded Kunai, as her safe on block special
Hein 5MP-6MK Target combo seems to be the replacement to this, albeit in a weird way. Grounded EX Kunai covers this option as the long range YOLO move as well, heh.
Tsujigoe Glide replaced this as her signature useless special move
Neckbreaker EX Raida and her V-skill kind of take this spot – but really, Neckbreaker sucks. She has enough anti-fireball tools.
Super Jumps Pushed to her HK dash.
Super Jump Cancels/Jump Cancels Removed / Ported to allow for all cancelable moves to allow for “jump” cancels, but in a very restricted direction, not really the same.
Grounded Kunai mostly takes the place of Tsumuji as the safe on block, pressure oriented special move that can also be used for weak forms of poking. However, due to the design of the Kunai system, and in order to make it function both in and out of close space, it had to be granted decent recovery. To offset this, they made it very low damage/stun, but the recovery could not be changed. The design of this proved fatal in testing as Ibuki gained a very Rolento style of zoning, by throwing Kunai after Kunai at long distance and becoming a very opposing style of play to what she is known for. To offset this, they gave Ibuki an ammo system to prevent Ibuki from zoning endlessly with her Kunai without any downtime.
This, to me, is why she has an Ammo system to begin with. From there, it, out of necessity required means of replenishment, and they also added in another way to use them (the releases). Ibuki’s Kunai has ammo to prevent her from zoning, no where is it too strong in any other instance. It is just a regular old special move at any distance other than max range.
It is not an extension, it is a limitation. It is not an extra resource that no other character has access to, it is designed to KEEP Ibuki from abusing it in ways to which would be against this game’s philosophy of play if it were infinite. It is there entirely to prevent perma-zoning. This is why I’ve said repeatably and why I’ve never once advocated that her reload needs to be sped up in neutral. Kunai you waste there are going for a reason. Since Kunai is replacing many things of Ibuki’s former kit, as WELL as being a replacement to existing portions of her kit to which were already nerfed down (air Kunai), you mean to tell me that she should, by no means, even when using Kunai an an offense manner, even when you successfully hit your opponent and got a knockdown, should NEVER be able to gain a Kunai back despite the fact Kunai is covering many bases of her pre-existing moveset?
You keep saying her powerful kit otherwise, and it’s by no means a bad kit, but it is still a PORTION of her former kit without Kunai. I don’t think you understand that Kunai ammo is not just limiting her new Kunai specials, it also limiting existing ones; moves to which the new Kunai was meant to replace and so on. Her ammo system essentially limits Tsumuji, Air Kunai, and her launcher (which also requires EX). All of that put into one special move that uses it’s own resource and you can’t even replenish it in any safe manner. And to you, despite the fact that this move is filling in so many blanks, that even successfully doing 1 read, getting a knockdown AND sacrificing pressure, is not enough good play to reward even ONE safe Kunai? Do you know how valuable pressure is? That is NOT an even trade. 95 times out a 100, any fighting player is going to take the Oki, especially as a character designed around a pressure game!
Losing pressure and getting a read first is NOT free…
That is not a read – I suppose in some capacity it could be seen as a read, but it’s a read which has no place at high level play. What you are describing is the inability and match-up inexperience of your opponent. If people actually fought against Ibukis more (as they are pretty much non-existent), they would realize that they can freely buffer things on wake-up into down back and then press a button if they see a reload after a knockdown. If a move will inevitably cease to have use at any level of play, then it is poorly designed.
I would argue using Kunai in neutral is more a read than on knockdown, because they might have a reason NOT to be buffering something, but on wake-up, you should ALWAYS buffer something, there is 0 reason not to.
It’s okay damage, sort of, but it is disallowing use of 4 of your special moves. That is… a pretty huge downside. It also scales the less Kunai you have, and requires charge beforehand. Can’t say that every time I landed Cammy’s BnB and did 228/395 that I somehow lost access to my DP until next round. The whole point of those moves is to DO burst damage. Burn through and limit yourself, in order to gain a slight lead or kill. At 1 Kunai, you’re not going to be doing any amazing release combo damage. So even if you could gain a Kunai back after the fact, you are still at a net loss of 5 Kunais and the loss of pressure.
Also if EX reload is a thing, it’s not entirely sincere to say something is a meterless combo if you then use meter to regain what was lost from doing it. Potentially redundant if that is your only means of gaining half of your kit back.
I never said anything about balance. I said this is a game of weak characters, which it is. That is objectively true. Characters in this game have less powerful tools than they have had before. This does not mean every tool is worse, but their overall kits are weaker. The fact that the game is balancing down at all in S2 is perplexing to me. No one in this game was too strong in my eyes. Slight tweaks here and there sure, but no one was brokenly good. My desire for everyone to be stronger overall is a sentiment a lot of people share. Ibuki here is weaker than she’s ever been, and the same is true of most characters.
I personally don’t believe Ibuki is incapable of buffs, nor that she is complete in her design. Glide is worthless and reload is borderline worthless, especially if people figure out the match-up.
I do not dislike this Ibuki, I just don’t like bad design or useless moves. I don’t do poorly with this Ibuki, and I play what I am given, but that does not mean I have to enjoy it. Always look at things critically. Ibuki’s ammo system is the most glaring issue to me with her design. Other areas like her overhead being unreliable and slow are things I’d like to see changed, but at the same time can understand if they aren’t. Quite a few things I’d like actually, which maybe we’ll talk about before or after the notes come out – if ever.
To me, this would not make Ibuki too good, it would just give her options, something SFV is SORELY missing in it’s character designs. EX reload will offer a zoning playstyle choice to Ibuki, one where she can choose to zone for long periods of time with Kunai. Normal reload should cover the areas where safety is acquired through successful offense, and Kunai can be restored at the cost of pressure, and doubly so if they use meter to gain even more Kunai back safely. These small changes, as well as making Glide useful and a few other things I’d like, would complete Ibuki as a character to me. Having a move built for people who don’t know the match-up though…mmm… doesn’t sit well with me.
Or scratch the idea altogether, there’s a million and one ways to make a resource mechanic. Hell if I care how they do it, just don’t make useless moves, that’s all I care about!
SF5 is not SF4, SF3, SF2, etc and all the versions within each. A simple answer to a lot of words in your last post but a strong one. In fact SF5 is the firsi in the franchise and unique in fighters in general that has taken age old characters and had the balls to shake up their designs entirely while still keeping some nostalgic aspects. Not only was it said in numerous interviews before the game came out, it actually ended up being the case when it did and still continues to be the case with it’s dlc characters. Hence your whole argument for all the tools she had is redundant for that reason and also the fact its just simply another game. Ken for the first time is significantly more different than the copy shoto. Bison, Zangief, upcoming Akuma, Ibuki, Juri, Dhalsim, etc. Your idea of weaker characters using this philosophy and claiming it as objective is actually subjective. Its simply that they are different from past iterations in a game that prioritizes different things.
When you can go matches and matches and even more matches with varying levels of kunai left in stock it is not a limitation. Ibuki can function at a high level using a small fraction or none of her kunai while using a plethora of her other tools. For kunai to be a limitation this could not be so. She doesn’t require kunai to zone. Her v-skill you know that other new projectile in her toolset that she didn’t have before with two different timings, a retracting hurtbox and builds v-trigger zones at not only the more optimal range for zoning but also functions as a poking tool. She doesn’t require kunai or anywhere up to a full set to do damage. It is a damage modifier and combo extender in SF5 to enhance her damage output or corner carry. Release kunai combos are restricted to how many are in the stock (typically 4 or more) so the damage scaling is also redundant in your argument the way your trying to make it but the reason for that is because you don’t have to dip into ex meter. If u want less kunai usage in kunai combos you have to dip into ex meter for ex kunai and modify if u’ll use anymore in that same combo. So kunai release for full using no meter while being restricted to how many in stock or ex kunai which requires meter but allows flexibility on how many more kunai u’ll use to scale the combo That’s “factually” how it works.
You keep claiming things but don’t provide actual objective facts to back them up but rather conjecture and now your even saying things are objective when they’re in fact subjective. You list moves she lost and assume she has to have the equal amount given back. It would be nice if that were the case but it doesn’t make her a weaker character in a different game that also for the first time drastically changed up the formula for characters. She never had the v-trigger she has now which is a free mixup opportunity, she never had the v-trigger she has now that has not only burst damage but ambiguous resets all over it, never had v-skill which is another projectile, never had grounded kunai options that fulfill more purposes than they ever had, she never had an invincible reversal that has the option to continue into more burst damage via ex kunai~kunai release, etc.
Honestly its gotten to the point where your just throwing things out now as opposed to actually thinking about them in full context all the while falling into the category of people who get hung up and blinded by nostalgia. Different does not translate to weaker especially in a different game where others also follow the same rule.
I’m pretty sure the reason you are forced to go all in with the charged releases is that Ibuki is still a rushdown character and she’s in a game where zoning is forcefully pushed to not get too out of hand. They’re not going to let a character that’s designed to go in and win to play long term zoning games with the kunai. Just not gonna happen. That’s why you have to go all in with the kunai release.
The air kunai release has some interesting cross up setups that will be more viable with the reload also. I’m still waiting it out to see what other changes they have as eventually as people get better with the character, people will dread an Ibuki that has access to anything better than what she is capable of.
SFV is a new game and a game centered around eSports and things that don’t relate to what was made before. I used to argue what SFIV needed and didn’t have compared to SF3, but it doesn’t get you anywhere and the devs don’t change anything.
Hien, Tsuiji Goe and neckbreaker were mostly useless in neutral and not something I feel she needed back. Kunais and her new reliance on a speedy command dash replace the need for Tsumuji as well. For this game I feel Ibuki should be in a pretty good spot. Everything else you’ll have to take to different games to find.
I don’t think really think it’s a moot point, the character is based upon a pre-existing character archetype. If they were going to alter her significantly, they would have simply made a new character. So they had to work with the character as she was. What I did was construct in my head my theory on what was going on in the development process, something I tweaked out from far too much time spent in the lab and understanding frame allocation and the difficulty of balancing moves correctly. I made an entire blog post about what Ibuki’s transition to SFV would look like with a more direct translation in mind. (Still on this forum) Trust me, I’ve thought long and hard on the subject.
I am going to touch on the strength things in a moment, but first I’m going to touch on the things that matter first…
It’s very nice that you had a knee-jerk way of casting off my entire post without answering any of the questions laid out within it. I motioned to you that Ibuki’s Kunai were limited with ammo to prevent them from being abused in zoning. Do you disagree with this point? I also theorized that Ibuki’s Kunai was meant to replace Tsumuji as her safe on block special and that her EX Kunai launching was a way to keep her juggles that she is known for in-tact. Do you disagree with this? Her kit existed before, and they wanted to preserve her general playstyle. Do you disagree that Kunai was just a really clever way to cover all of these bases while also giving her a new ranged option?
It was a clever addition, I like Kunai as an option. It keeps most of the character in-tact while providing new things for it while cleverly limiting them in a way which diversifies the character from the rest of the cast. It’s very close to being a very nice system.
You keep saying the rest of her, the rest of her kit. Without Kunai, Ibuki’s kit is Raida, Kazekiri, and Kasumi Gake. Two enders, one of which is a DP, and a command dash. She’s got her buttons, some of which are good, some are meh, some are pretty bleh. 6HK is strong, 2MK is meh, 3MK is bleh, 6MK is slow and only hits sleepers. Her V-skill is a nice poke and doubles as pseudo fireball, but it’s also very slow, and people will catch on if she becomes more played that you can fireball immune this move on reaction. Her Kit without Kunai is not somehow superior to other characters kits, with the then added bonus of Kunai. It is a functional but bare minimum kit without Kunai.
Just because I have beaten players, and some really good ones at that at 3S using only Ibuki’s MK button, does not mean that the rest of her kit is an “extension” of her kit. Yes, you can win without using Kunai, but you could win easier if you used them, and could use more, with a means of getting them back.
So answer me this, what, to you, makes Kunai so unbelievably strong that it needs to be limited? Cause I’ll be frank, on a forum like this filled with people who like to complain, I’ve never heard anyone complain about Kunai. I’ve heard people complain about air EX Kunai, but that’s metered, and is essentially Cammy’s EX divekick, it functions more or less the same only Ibuki has to spend a Kunai as well.
Answer me that question, because I want to know what makes it so strong to you. What makes Ibuki’s kit so strong, with or without Kunai?
Why is gaining one Kunai with the sacrifice of pressure so strong to you? Spoilers, 95/100 times no one is going to get that Kunai over pressure. Even if this change was in, the game would play most entirely the same. The difference would be Ibuki would have OPTIONS, playstyle choices, things to consider! That is valuable to any character design. Six Kunai is more or less plenty, but the option for more should exist without massive sacrifices like losing health on a low health character.
Where? Where have you seen Ibukis dominating tournaments? Show me, cause I didn’t see a single one! Who is it? Majorboy, the online Ibuki? I don’t even think he’s played in an offline tournament! Xian, after he was too afraid of using the character that he opted to not pick her at all?
Show me these Ibuki players that so absolutely dominating this game that they don’t even need to USE half of the character’s kit? Cause I’m gonna be honest, if she’s that good, I’m thinkin’ we might not be playing SFV anymore, I was told this was a fair game! Deviljin told me so… literally every day since Beta.
Bison has more tournament results than this character. BISON!
I think she’s a slept on character, just so, but I’m sorry, unless I missed some tournaments, I’m not seeing these results. Tournament play is not everything, but it is A LOT of things.
You have not provided anything but your opinion, to which I have asked for, and I have mostly provided the same. However, the specifics of your opinion, remain to be backed up by any significance. You keep saying Ibuki’s kit is so strong, but then why is she not top tier? Why is she not played? Why would this one, insignificant buff somehow set her over the edge, into the realm of being overpowered? What is so game breaking?
At this point, your opinion is looking to be rather biased, and based on nothing but your own experience against whoever it is you are playing against. You quote high level, but the character herself has never been seen there. Where are the facts? Where is the strength that you boast about?
She’s not a bad character, but she’s not on the verge of being game breaking in this build.
Now to other matters…
Yes, you have access to two resources, both of which are not a free resource. The price of using Kunai is that you lose Kunai, for a minor increase in damage, and a slight increase in juggle ability, as there are instances where only release/kunai will connect because of this game’s arbitrary juggle point system. Using Kunai release or expending multiple Kunai in a combo diminishes Ibuki’s power as a character progressively throughout a match. That’s fun design, so is burning all of your resources for a powerful attack. Sacrificing pressure, for 1 Kunai, does not mean Ibuki is going to be dealing infinite Kunai release damage endlessly. It’s going to be significantly weaker and Ibuki as a whole will have less options available to her throughout the match.
This would be the same as Ryu being able to hold a punch button down to do a stronger DP, but then lose access to DP for 5 seconds or something. Using release is a risk, with a small reward in damage. The fact that Kunai cannot be regained by near any safe means, means that that risk is nearly never worth the reward unless on kill. This is especially true of air release as it offers no increase in options save for a somewhat awkward and frighteningly risky cross-up.
Notice how… I kept MY comparison of Ibuki away from game specific mechanics. She also never had a universal overhead, a parry, three super choices, and multiple meter bars except in III. You want to compare the worth of those things, you’re welcome to.
She also doesn’t have a launcher either (which can be started from a sweep as well), which converts into good damage into mix-ups into potentially more launchers (this is called relaunching), rinse, repeat. All of it, for free, no meter, unless you use some for a varied mix-up after the launch.
She could also zone with Kunai in the air at any jump angle or height… forever. (Not the best thing, but it was very functional and useful)
Uh… yes she has. Also the follow-up USED to be free without expending more meter. In 3S, she can cancel into her super on hit, block OR whiff (which is rare in SF), and on hit, she can also cancel into her air normals or Kunai or whatever. And yes, EX Kazekiri has ALWAYS been invincible. In SFIV, she could use Kunai after Kazekiri… I think on block too, if I’m not mistaken – my knowledge of SFIV Ibuki is less because I hated her design.
Here’s a little combo gif I made a long time ago. It’s out-dated, but it’s the max meter variant of this. To expend less meter, you can end with a jab to reset into +6 advantage upon landing, or if you do it perfectly you can connect with 5MK into Tsumuji or another Kazekiri.
You’re losing credibility at this point. I’m starting to think you’ve never played another version of Ibuki.
Look, it is very commonly accepted that Street Fighter V operates on a lesser power balance than most fighting games and past SF games. That’s why this game is called “honest” fighter V (even if it does have some bullshit). Honesty is a very subjective term, and I disagree with what Capcom accepts as honest and what they do not. However, that aside, this game operates on the basis of weak tools against weak tools. There are some stronger tools mixed in there, but overall, if you were to directly port some characters from SFV to another game, they likely would not do well. Now that is a stupid concept, but it is still very… true.
Now Guilty Gear for instance, is a game with very powerful tools. Every character has a lot of options and most of them are very strong. You fight powerful tools with your own. There is nothing inherently wrong with either choice, they are just differing design philosophies. There is no need to get defensive about it. It is just something that is true about the game. This game offers options to you that are in a lot of cases less than in previous games, and those options are often times weaker. That does not mean she works poorly within the context of the game she is in, in-fact she works quite well, but it does mean that she, and other characters, don’t quite have the same strength they did before.
I don’t really want to get into a conversation about this, because it’s pointless, but just to kind of solidify the notion, lemme quickly list some things that are worse in this game compared to… most SF games…
Throws are much slower, knockdown advantage after throws is much less, knockdown advantage after knockdowns is much less, Oki is weak, sweeps are universally unsafe, ranges are shorter, fireball recoveries are longer, active frames are less, meaties are less powerful as a result, block advantage is less, chains are mostly gone, tick throws are mostly gone, air hurtboxes/hitboxes are universally worse in every regard, anti airs are worse, damage output on AAs are worse, overheads are slower, overheads are punishable on block (mostly), overheads convert into low damage, lows are not often cancelable and when able don’t convert into much, pushback on normals prevents steady offense, air specials cannot be done from neutral or back jump (Except Chun and Gief), height restrictions added to all air specials, back dashes are counter-hit, OS’s are mostly gone, karas are mostly gone, juggle states are limited and specific, throw start-up is counter-hit state, and… so… on…
That is mostly universal stuff too, and I could go on for awhile. This is a weird point for someone to contest, and I’m… surprised you did, because I thought it was a general consensus at this point. This does not mean that SFV is a game with no strong tools, just that most of the general tools are weaker. Thus, the power balance in this game is less.
If you want me to do Ibuki specific stuff, I can, but it’s going to be a massive waste of my time.
Anyway, I’m more or less done posting on this topic. Unless you post something that explains everything to me, and provides any sort of evidence to it other than your own apparent success with the character, than I see no reason to continue talking about it. It is a painfully minor change, and your opposition to it and your claims of Ibuki’s strength has gotten rather ridiculous. It is by no means a change that has to be the way I describe it, but a change is necessary. This mystical power of this character will only be realized to me if I see you or someone out there winning tournaments. Unfortunately, the time for that is over, as S2 will be out and Ibuki will have undergone changes regardless. So any success after the fact, will be a result of those changes, not of this iteration. Even if she dominates, if I never see a regular reload from her, then it will have proved my point, that Capcom left a useless move in her arsenal. That is bad design, this is 2016, we have patches, useless moves should be gone. Situational as hell is fine, but useless, never.
can you please move the arguing to ibuki general discussion thread? this has nothing to do with actual season 2 changes. who cares why stuff exists, it does, just deal with it, nothing you can do ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Haha, sorry, my average post length on forums is usually 5 paragraphs. It’s in my nature.
I actually think it has more relevance here than it does there. It’s a conversation sparked by rumored changes.
Though, as I stated at the end of my last post, that I am more or less done posting on the subject, as the conversation has gone in a circle and has started to branch out into unrelated topics. Once that happens, my experience with online forums tells me to stop posting. Nothing wrong with a good debate though, now someone unhook my mic from this podium, it’s mine and I’m taking it home with me.
Besides, this forum is a ghost town, and I’m killing time until the patch notes. Must be high noon, cause I think I just saw a tumbleweed…
“On top of that, meter gain has been reduced significantly which makes it harder for people to exploit EX moves and Critical Arts.” This was information that was not mentioned in Capcom’s blog last week.
RIP Ibuki if these changes are across the board for every character and they only do the buffs we know about.
Cant just look at things in a vacuum. Im sure everyone’s patch notes are going to be larger than we know and it’ll take a while for people to stop vacuuming the notes to see where we really are
This honestly has the potential to kill the game off for me… Ibuki is the only character I have fun with right now and its all because of the different ways to ex kunai pressure. I’ll give Akuma a whirl but if I don’t like him its likely full time Guilty Gear for me, which is sad cause I really want to enjoy this game.
I just feel like they’re over buffing and blanket nerfing things that don’t need to be fixed. But of course it’s all speculation cause its too much to ask for patch notes a week out from the season debut -_-
Idk I think ibuki is pretty solid now even without all that stuff, it just seems like it would be bloat in sf5. She’ll probably be even better in season 2 too.
I don’t think it’s very big. Judging by the footage we have, both the PSX footage and the ones we see of Gouki’s character introduction. His general meter building seems only slightly worse than current shotos, so I’m not too worried about it.
Even just going from the system wide changes, Ibuki doesn’t get impacted very hard. Both her throws didn’t net much of anything unless they were in the corner, and meterless DPs were, much like to everyone, an annoyance to work around. EX meter building slightly slower is about the only thing that could impact her any meaningful way, and I doubt it’ll be major.
We’re likely looking at nothing but buffs for this character. Only thing I could see getting tweaked in a way that results in a nerf are bombs, but I doubt it.
