Again, the st.MK will depend on the character. It will usually whiff against Dudley for example. It’ll always connect against Ryu though.
Well, the common idea is that it’s ALWAYS better to play safe. BUT, you can afford to try to surprise your opponent. I always start playing safe to show my opponet that he shouldn’t mash, and then when he’s conditioned, I start tdoing unsafe stuf (empty jumps, command dashes…) to surprise him
All my first rounds are me turtling and playing it safe, gauging what the opponent will do. Works really well.
Normally I do a tsumuji, step back and punish their whiff, or walk forward again and do another st.mk. This tends to work extremely well when you upset your timing like this. Works on a LOT of people, when you do moves and counters not in a rhythmic sequence, like a lot of players do.
Now wait just a second! HK Tsumuji has its uses. Yes it’s minus, but so is LK Tsumuji. There are times you might want to use one Tsumuji over another.
LK Tsumuji: results in a true blockstring, is -4 on block, but puts you at perfect spacing to whiff st.MK or cr.MP for counterhit or whiff punish purposes. What I like to do is follow up with a sweep, which is a little bit more unsafe, but will pretty much whiff punish anything they throw out. LK Tsumuji is incredibly useful when it’s the first time you’re doing a Tsumuji block string on your opponent and you want to stay safe but still obtain data.
The data I’m talking about is “What does my opponent like to do after blocking a Tsumuji?” This is important because Tsumuji pressure is basically Ibuki’s only way of staying on her opponent, besides st.LP pressure (though both can be used simultaneously).
MK Tsumuji: does not result in a true blockstring, but this usually isn’t a concern unless your opponent mashes at the first sight of st.MK, or mashes at the first sight of blocking that kunai. 0 on block, and puts you at perfect spacing for max range st.MK or cr.MP. This is typically the most commonly used just because it’s 0 and you’re at a good range to counterhit or counterpoke what your opponent does. And if your opponent wants to block, then you can still continue your “blockstring” or maybe even get back in (st.MK xx LK cd; Damascus seemingly does this a lot).
HK Tsumuji: also does not result in a true blockstring, is also -4 on block, but what is excellent about this is that on block, you’re pretty much still right next to your opponent. An easy to do setup is simply do HK Tsumuji , walk up , kara throw (note: you must let your stick go to neutral to do kara throw properly, otherwise you’ll get f+MK which doesn’t quite work). Best used when you know your opponent doesn’t like to push buttons.
So the point I want to get across is that none of the Tsumujis are better than another, or none of them are useless. It’s this kind of spacing and frame disadvantage/neutral mindfuck that allows you to maintain pressure on anybody, even other Ibuki veterans who know the difference between her Tsumujis.
Best thing to do if they like to block. You can go for a throw, a normal (which may result in a counterhit) or an overhead afterwards, so I kinda like it yeah, even though I only do it if I’m convinced that my opponent is not a button masher.
Except against dat last Fei Long in the tournament because I’m a scrub.
It’s punishable against players that are used to fighting Ibukis. They can simply observe the st.mk, delay the jab button press, and hit you in recovery of CD, while being safe to everything else.
Except st.mk xx hien x super, but that’s a pretty risky play. Or any other super variant off of a st.mk.
While I do agree it’s a decent idea against hesitant players, I agree with eltrouble that it’s mainly because your opponent is not used to playing vs Ibuki, or is otherwise too hesitant to push buttons.
I also disagree with going for LK cd , throw every single time. Throw should be the last mixup you try, not the first, second, and third mixup. Most players will be looking to download information, and block/tech. You should take advantage of this by instead starting a new block string, doing an overhead, or HK cd and going for another layer of mixup instead.
If you simply go for a throw the first time, you won’t have a chance to try any of the other command dash mixups.
I go the opposite route. If I were to do dash/command dash and throw, I would do it early on in the match. It lets me know how likely they are to crouch-tech on reaction to Ibuk’s movement. Once I throw them, I try to keep them down and finish them off quick, preferably without using meter.
Once I train my opponent to start teching, then I start going for other mix-ups. This, in theory, allows me higher damage potential as opposed to a throw, and lets me finish off the match strong.
That’s my usual plan of attack. Blitz play early on in the match to establish a lead, download their data, and change it up slightly to keep them guessing, and finish off.
I suppose it’s up to preference. It seems like Mingo prefers a highly analytical 1st round, and then destroying them with solid counters in 2nd and 3rd rounds.
Options, options…
Ibuki: Princess of Options? I recall someone saying that this late in the game’s maturity, unsafe moves are becoming more practical.
Great to see a lot of variety in playstyle within Team Ibuki.
Valle said it best. There’s a lot of randomness in top level play. I’m sure at the highest levels, playing solid becomes predictable, so playing a bit more reckless and aggressive works to keep your opponent off-guard. Keep that in mind whenever you see your favorite top player start the set by going for risky wake-up uppercuts and DPing the gaps between attack strings. Mind games.
Hell, Online Tony wins a lot of his matches by being extremely aggressive and his ability to uppercut anytime, anywhere, and still manage to win.
I actually think C.Viper has far more options than Ibuki. Meterless FADC, invincible ground pounds, SJC specials, a pretty decent anti-air, LOADS of wakeup-mixup options, pretty decent ground-game and TK pressure, overheads, cross-ups, high damage on ultras, etc etc.
cool to see this thread still getting some action. agree with mingos assesment that all of ibukis tsumujis are viable and have use, i dont necessarily agree with them all being equal… mk tsumuji always seems to be the best overall ption… BUT, using the other tsumujis can realy fuck with an opponents head… not just because of the differing frame advantages… but mostly cause all of them have different spacing properties depending on hit or block some of which are vastly different like lk tsumuji leaving ibuki the closest on hit of the 3 versions but on block leaving her really far (or vice versa, or maybe it was a different tsumuji… its been a loooong time since i played)
i also agree that using throw as the first mixup off of lk cd is probably not the way to go… at least it seems that way from my games. mostly i like to use cr.lp into throw or into a blockstring… i only throw off a raw lk cd when i dont know what to do and wont be to mad if my shit gets teched… after all throw is ibukis fastest move at 3 fraes startup versus crouching weaks which are 4 frames… so yeah throw is safer but for reasons that are a bit to complex to delve into right now, simply using a blockstring or a frame trap are better options, at least at first.
though to be honest i dont use st.mk xx lk cd versus many opponents as they will simply never work… or will only work every once in a very blue moon. luckily its really easy to tell who it will work on well versus those it wont work on well b listening to there button taps.
-dime
@Dime_x:
About your st.MK xx LK CD comment, there is a possible f+LK xx LK CD. It seems impossible because it will almost always come out as a kazegiri instead, but it actually works. I haven’t experimented with the mixup potential in using this, but lets say you’ve trained your opponent so they know you will always get a full combo with MK Tsumuji, f+LK xx Special. If you know they will not push buttons, doing a f+LK xx LK CD will give you a free grab/overhead if they are not ready. If done correctly, it will look like the CD came after f+LK recovers, but it actually cancels. Maybe someone can try this? It’s kind of weird since you have to do:
f+LK xx HCF K
With a the HCF slightly slower so you don’t get a kazegiri.
i know about F+lk xx cd… it isnt to hard with practice… motempest was the first to bring it to my attention… he swore by it… me, im not so convinced but mo is better than i am so…
as far as the reset you propose i just see it as any other trick that could work in the right situations against the right players… i wouldnt at this time go about practicing it hardcore though.
but its just my opinion.
also, there isnt a need to do F+lk xx cd as a HCF motion… its a slow cancel and you can just hold at neutral. :tup:
-edit another “motempest special” is cr.lp,B+mp (1 hit) xx tsumuji… that shit is kinda hard to do and i wouldnt try it in a match, but mo used to use it alot… probably just to impress himself… kinda like when sako tried to F+lk xx u2 against clakey d at revelations… there are things that players do just cause they feelin’ themselves.
if you want to do some fancy shit with ibuki, F+lk xx u2 is imho the pinnacle of “only other ibukis will know how dope that was” stuff.
well that and crossup tc8… which ive never seen used in a match and never even seen at all outside of my own training mode (it isnt that hard just character/spacing/timing specific)
if i ever see it in a tourny i will shit bricks if the person that gets it done to them blocks it the first time.
-dime
Why f+LK xx cd when you can use any other light, like cr.LP or cr.LK?
f.LK to LK cd? Why? Any button mashing from your opponent will beat you.
MK/HK Tsumuji = no blockstring, there goes the actual use of LK Tsumuji aside from Tsumuji loops.
TC8 = air target combo? Doing it crossup is just another gimmick. I like to do it on Sagats on wakeup for example, but since you can’t OS it, I don’t see this as a very useful thing.
Now I need to seriously work on those anti-crouch-tech walking technology. Sako always does something like [blocked string] - step back to avoid a cr.LK due to crouch tech - step forward f.LK xx special
For some reason I can’t get the f.LK to punish the crouch tech. I like this whole “walk back and forth to make your opponent whiff” (and I actually use it a lot after a blocked MK Tsumuji, followed by a f.HK for example, makes my opponent stop mashing), but I can’t get the timing yet.
Will figure this out, eventually. Meh.
Oh and…I saw that a lot in videos. Finally decided to use it. Can’t believe how empty jump - overhead is useful. Before I was like “There is no way this is ueful, the overhead is way too slow”, but actually no. You make any normal your opponent would do to anti-air you whiff and continue with your overhead. Kudos.
f+LK xx CD is simply a weird way of getting a CD. Like I said, if you can train your opponent to not press buttons during your combos, they may recognize a f+MK, f+LK xx Tsumuji or something. Mixing that up with CD will give you an opportunity to get a throw or overhead. I’m not saying it’s powerful, but people don’t expect it. Who really does f+LK xx CD? No one. You see Ibukis doing f+LK xx LK/EX Tsumuji and that’s why the CD would lead to damage after training your opponent to block without pressing buttons. If they have good reactions, they will probably punish, but that’s why it’s a mixup.
I still don’t see why you have to do f+LK instead of any other light move. It’s not like your opponent is going to try (or be able) to react to it anyways.
Ok fine. Instead of using it that way. It can be used as a MoTempest mixup.
FA Crumple, HK CD, f+LK xx LK CD for a cross under mixup. Kind of like the crumple pause slide reset. If you don’t want same side, backdash after the crumple, walk in range for f+LK.
All I’m saying is if they start looking for your cr.LK, cr.LP, or something, f+LK could be a replacement.
If your opponent is smartnough, he’ll have noticed that f.LK-Tsumuji is not a blockstring and will probably just mash whenever you do f.LK ^^
Also, I don’t get the posible advantages this mixp you’re talking about could give. If you manage to land a focus crumple I think you’re better off trying to maximize the damage before a possible reset.
I found some crossover with f+hk and f+mk! after cr.hk you can do forward dash, f+hk,/slide,f+hk. you got plenty of advantage after sweep,dash,f+hk. i could whiff a cr.lp before the opp rises.
It works after raida in the corner too.
sweep kd,slide f+hk immediatly makes you jump over the opp. but if you delay it like 1-2 frames you wont.
Update: all kinds of command dashes,f+hk works too. both in corner and midscreen.
f+mk is alot harder to jump over the opponent with.
eg. tc4 st.lp sweep, f.dash f+hk works kinda easy but you have to take a step forward to make f+mk jump over after the dash.
it seems like your atleast 15 frames advantage after a tight jump over withsweep,f.dash f+hk