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So I run Doom/Ammy in my backcourt and have a lot a lot a lot of trouble with anchor Hawkeye. Is there anyone on XBL who’d be willing to give me some matchup practice?
Also Honzo do you have any tips for that matchup?
play honda vs sagat in sf and thats basically how doom fights hawkeye
ammy just stay grounded usually and dash your way in, your buttons will beat his. If he up backs its a free throw, F+H will beat slide most distances, and you got a projectile counter.
Try to get him to waste his meter – Just a quick flash of [S]your wiener[/S] Ammy’s projectile reflector can be enough to bait Hawkeye into trying to GIMLET you. Once he’s out of or low on meter, the match-up should be much more bearable, but I don’t think Ammy should struggle with him too much.
Doom, however… Good luck. Get Ammy in instead or snap Hawkeye in with Nova.
So I know some of you guys put Hawkeye on point. I’m just curious as to why? What advantage does he have compared to other popular points?
Hawkeye can be played on point but he needs a gtfo me assist to help him at the beginning of the round or he will get pummeled by heavy rushdown characters like Wolverine, Zero, Vergil etc. IMO Hawkeys best position on a team is second, where a battery point character can start the round without getting into trouble and gain meter to eventually get Hawkeye into the match and set up his keep away game. Hawkeye does have a poor dhc with gimlet,but kiss of death is a great way to get Your point character out and Hawkeye in. Also XF2 Hawkeye with a good assist is no slouch either.
Because of his start of the round issues and the fact that he is a meter hog and is more effective with meter stocked, i feel that he isn’t a very good point character. However it is possible to create a team around Hawkeye and create a very keep away centric team. I suggest using Tatsu, Jam session and/or Hidden missiles if your going to use point Hawkeye. If you can get Hawkeye safe from the start of the round, you can begin to setup an effective keep away game that can chip away at you opponents team where your second and third character can then clean up if need be.
Also while we are at it anchor Hawkeye has bad matchups. It is very difficult for a solo Hawkeye to take out a entire Team if it comes down to it, and it is almost impossible if the opponent still has XF. All the opponent has to do is save XF for Hawkeye and his chip game becomes useless. With very little up close options besides throw and his left/right trick maneuver H mixup, anchor Hawkeye is very bad when compared to some of the other prominent anchors in the game.
I agree with Hawkeye’s best spot being 2nd, that’s why I was curious as to why some had him on point. If the enemy is out of X-Factor, he’s a pretty good anchor, IMO.
Assist-wise, I think the best assists for Hawkeye (in the 2nd position) are either Tatsu or Vajra.
-Tatsu is a great “Get off me” Assist and Akuma provides more damage overall (combo extensions and DHCs).
-Vajra stops momentum and just keeps people in place. Also, it provides good synergy DHCing into Strider. As it gives Strider a good tele mixup with Greyhoud assist.
The thing is, I can’t decide which one is better. If I use Akuma, I’d be running Spencer or Wolvie on point, while Wesker would be on point if I use Strider. Which one do you think can handle overall situation/match ups better? Tatsu or Vajra?
Vajra is one of the best assists in the game but i dont like the idea of Having Hawkeye second and Strider 3rd. Hawkeye is a meter hog and Strider needs meter stocked for ouroboros. Hawkeye +Akuma is a really solid combination, its the combination I use on my main team (Task/Hawk/Akuma). out of the characters you listed I suggest using a team like Spencer/Wesker/Hawkeye, Wolverine/Hawkeye/Akuma. If you are going to use Hawkeye and Strider together run Hawkeye/Dante/Strider.
^Dante/Hawkeye/Strider might work better for certain start-of-round shenanigans. Jam Session’s priority is a bit lacking when compared to Tatsu. Regarding Strider, he can still do damage without Ouroboros in XF3 if you do the Richard Nguyen Bird Bomb combo.
It would def work better for the start of a round but if your bent on playing Hawkeye and Strider together I dont realy like the idea of playing two heavy meter users on the back end of a team, so I would put Hawkeye on point. And I def dont like the idea of a Hawkeye/Akuma/Strider team, that team sounds more fragile than a wet paper bag lol, so if your not going to use Tatsu I would suggest Dante with Jam session(and Dante and Strider are a really strong pair). XF3 Strider does tons of damage and is viable without Oroboros, but with meter stocked for oroboros you have an easy option to take out 1-2 characters without XF or when XF runs out. Also Dante is a great battery for Strider.
I definitely don’t approve of Akuma/Strider. What you can do is DHC Hawkeye in to give him the space he needs. That way, you can have Hawkeye/Dante/Strider with room to breathe. I just think of Hawkeye a la Dormammu in that he does need some clearing space to get started.
I wouldn’t say Hawkeye is a meter hog. He likes having meter stocked but doesn’t necessarily have to use it. Also, having Hawkeye 2nd and chipping away at people’s health (with or without X-Factor) just means Strider has to do less mix-ups, since his damage sucks. With 4 Meters, I tend to use Super Scatter Shot DHC into Orbs, and go to work. It’s surprisingly effective. It gives Strider an assist for tele mix-ups and anchor Hawkeye is pretty good too.
The thing with Dante, I can do his basic BC combos, but BC teleporting under pressure, I just mess it up like no other. I guess I could work on it…I just don’t think I can play him effectively enough. There’s so much to learn about him that I don’t think I’d ever be able to get it all down. I’m curious, why does Dante like Strider? It doesn’t seem to be as good as Doom/Strider or Wesker/Strider.
You can just switch points depending on start of the round matchups, but with his team I would hate for Dante to die and be left with just Hawkeye and Strider. I feel that the primary order should def be Hawkeye/Dante/Strider. The only reason I suggest this order is because for Hawkeye to be played effectively he needs meter, and if hes played second on this team than hes taking away from Dark Strider. if it wasn’t for that than yes a Battery character should be played on point to set Hawkeye up.
Hawkeye is def a meter hog, the name of Hawkeyes game is to keep away the opponent, and if you just have Hawkeye and Strider left that means you don’t have any gtfo me assist to help Hawkeye out if he gets rushed down. All your opponent has to do is creep up and bait you vajra calls , which he can either punish or can just block which will then leave Hawkeye vulnerable. Hawkeye needs meter for gimlet and especially kiss of death to stop the enemy and push him back WHEN he gets through your zoning. Without a GTFO me assist your going to get bopped by rushdown if your playing point Hawkeye or Hawkeye in the second slot. Jam Session and Dante is perfect for this and perfect for this team.
As far as Dante Strider goes, Dante is an excellent battery for Strider and can really utilize vajra in his teleport game and can easily pick up the opponent and combo when Strider knocks them to the ground with vajra. watch Maximllian’s videos as he sometimes uses Dante and Strider for examples( cant think of anyone else off the top of my head).
Not to discredit you guys, but I was asking Yipes about Hawkeye on a stream and he said he should only be played first or last. Hawkeye 2nd seems ok on paper, but don’t expect to get any damage DHCing into him, or TACing. Plus, if your first character dies in the corner, Clint gets mixed up pretty free unless you XFlvl2 guard cancel just to give yourself a chance.
Also, if you want a lesson in point Hawkeye, check out this Yipes archive at about 1:52:30 http://www.twitch.tv/ifcyipes/b/341046953
The pressure he puts on with Weasel Shot is ridiculous. Not to mention unblockable setups with Nova assist, it’s a pretty ingenious Hawkeye rushdown team.
Definitely, 100%, 2nd is his worst position on a team. It’s not that he’s bad at the 2nd spot, but it’s that other characters do it better. Yes, Hawk’s DHC’s suck: gimlet scaled is ass, and kiss of fire may be a semi-safe DHC to get a character out, but there’s like a billion of those that do it better. Putting Hawk first or last solves his issue with damage: with a reliable DHC extension, e.g. Vergil’s spiral swords, you turn Hawkeye into a keep away monster who can TOD characters for the most part if he has 2 meters stocked by the end of his combo. With XF3, you can easily do 1.2 mil without meter. Putting him up front lets you have all the assists of your choice to augment his zoning game plan, and putting him last gives you one of the best horizontal assists in the game. Also, if you have him last and your 2nd character dies, you have the option to gimlet upon arrival and XF cancel to either confirm the hit into death, or put them in a mix-up situation. XF2 Hawk is great, but if I had two characters left, I’d rather have his greyhound assist complement my other character than give Hawk enough XF time to maybe kill 1 full life character.
It really depends on the type of team that your trying to make. The team that Yipes uses with Hawkeye is basically two points(Spencer and Vergil) and one assist(Hawkeye). This is the most popular Hawkeye team makeup because it gives you TOD combos with Spencer and Vergil using there strong dhc into combo setups(both ways), and then worst comes to worst you have derp XF lvl 3 Hawkeye(Combofiend,Chris G, Flocker use this to the same effect).
If you want to make a zoning team centered around Hawkeye than your going to want to have him second. The point of this team is to have your point character act as a battery and gain meter for Hawkeye to eventually bring him in so that he can start zoning. Then you have Hawkeye safely in with meter and two assists which help him zone.This is also done with Fchamps team and Dormammu. The reason why you don’t want him on point(IMO) is because if you face a heavy rushdown character like wolverine, spencer,Vergil, zero etc at the start of the round and they play the match up right, it is extremely hard to separate yourself from them and not get bopped.Plus you only have 1 bar of meter to start and Hawkeye is so much more effective with meter stocked. Point Hawkeye is viable but he def needs to rely on an assist to help him out which is a liability IMO.
There’s pros and cons wherever you place Hawkeye, so it all depends on what kind of team your trying to make and what your trying to do. Anchor Hawkeye is good for a team where you have rushdown/teleport characters that can both take advantage of triple arrow and can hopefully take out 1-2 characters on there own so that anchor Hawkeye will only have to take out 1-2 characters solo. It is very hard for Hawkeye to take out an entire team solo, especially if the other team has XF.
Hawkeye second is good for the reasons I stated above but has problems handling incoming setups when coming in, and has poor dhc and tac damage.but then again that’s not what our aiming at when playing him second.
Point Hawkeye, if he survives the beginning of the round, will have two characters to help him zone, and if he gains enough meter can setup some damaging dhc into combo setups If you have the right character second.you def need a gtfo me assist to help him at the start of the round though.
There’s risk/reward with each setup, and there all viable so pick your poison.( I just feel that IMO he is not a strong point character, and he’s an ok anchor, not to discredit Yipes at all, he’s a friggin master of this game and would own my ass if I ever played him lol).
I don’t understand what you mean by having a battery for Hawkeye to bring him in. Are you going to raw tag him in? Are you going to spend 2 meters to safely bring him in? The way I see it is if your point character kills the first character, then you can tag Hawk in, but then it seems like your point character is doing his job, so why switch him out? I understand your Fchamp reference: Mag Shockwave into Kiss of Fire, which leaves Hawk with tons of frame advantage, but that’s still 2 meters, and Hawk, as you said, needs meter to put fear into your opponent.
If you’re facing point Vergil or Wolverine, the smart choice would be to not shoot yourself on the foot and start someone else. The problem I see with most players is that they want to keep playing the same team/team order even though the matchup is heavily against them, e.g. Rayray starting Ryu against Morrigan. It’s good to have a versatile team so that you can switch order and still retain synergy. &Point Hawkeye does rely on assists, that’s the main reason why you give two assists to work with.
Having Hawk second doesn’t amplify his pros as much as putting him first or last. A proper Hawkeye combo can build 1 meter, so no matter what, by the end of his combo, he’ll be able to DHC into the next character if you started him. If he’s not a strong point and an OK anchor, I don’t see how putting him second would fix either of that. Having him first gives him damage and 2 assists; having him last gives him XF3, stocked meter, and gives your 2 characters a great assist; having him second gives you 1 character to get Hawk’s assist, everything you said in that first paragraph if you aren’t willing to pop the cherry after incoming gimlet, and pretty much an attenuated version of the other two spots, where hopefully your anchor can both help Hawk’s keep-away and damage. I can see Vergil filling that spot, but him with XF2&Greyhound sounds like a more viable option.
You make all valid points,but what I’m trying to say is there are pros and cons to each setup. I get it, in an ideal situation your going to want to position Hawkeye according to the matchup(which goes for everyone), but as a standard what I’m trying to say is that Hawkeye is best played with an assist(you can work with one if it comes down to it), and when compared to being either point or second I feel that second is his strongest position. On point he has start of the round issues and has to build meter(which he isn’t great at), and ok if your going to play him on point and dhc him out, then he’s now second and your still going to have to bring him in eventually(that is if the second character dies, dhcing your character out to save him and bring in Hawkeye safely, raw tag w/e). I would rather start a good point character who can kill with two bars by himself and if things start to get hairy, safely get him out and bring Hawkeye in(preferably with meter). Then you can start zoning and gain your points red health back.
anchor Hawkeye is most used because xf3 Hawkeye is derpy. You really don’t see anchor Hawkeye teams lately because other characters do it much better. All your opponent has to do is make sure he saves his XF for Hawkeyes XF and Hawkeye’s chip becomes nullified. A good anchor doesn’t need to rely on XF, can gain meter on there own well, and has the possibility of taking out a team on there own. What it boils down to is the other two characters that your using.if the game plan with your team is to rush down with two strong point characters(nova+spencer, spencer+vergil, zero+vergil) and have Hawkeyes assist for both, there is a strong likely hood that your two starting characters will get the job done and if anything you’ll have Hawkeye to clean up whatever’s left.With anchor Hawkeye you better hope that your other two characters can kill 1-2 characters because its nothing but an uphill mountain to climb if the opposing team has there whole team and especially if they have there whole team with XF. With good anchors they still have a shot at winning against a whole team( Strider, Phoenix, Magneto, Vergil( if he can survive the incoming setup), even Doom), that’s why I feel he’s a mid tier anchor.
I myself play him second and third. I prefer to play the character as a strong zoner with assists verses as anchor. I feel as though that is how he is supposed to be played, but I just can’t get behind him being played on point. In some situations it is def viable, in most playing against the top tier in this game it has its clear downsides. That’s just me, I’m a nobody so take what I say with a grain of salt, just my opinion.
I frequently play Hawkeye second and I think he works just fine. I particularly like him in the 2nd position because of TACs; TAC to Hawkeye, MHS, poison-gimlet-DHC (back to original point) adds lots of juicy unscaled poison damage to a combo.
Furthermore, one of the huge bonuses of Hawkeye second is that starting him first puts him in the worst possible position: every character gets to walk right up to him and/or corner him (at match start) for free, which results in lots of problems with matchups that Hawkeye is normally dominant in (e.g. Sentinel). The major benefit of Hawkeye second is that when you DHC to super scatter to bring him in, the opponent is almost always going to be at fullscreen afterward. Such a positioning advantage can hardly be overstated.