I dont like new players going right into god tier teams

Classic Fighting Games Marvel VS Capcom 2
41

Aug 2009…internet sarcasm is hard to detect?? lol
Well people play games for different reasons Jimmy. I think that who and how you play depends on what type of gamer you are. Some people only play for “fun”, those player don’t think that doing the same thing over and over is fun, and although I am personally not this type of gamer I can sorta kinda see where they’re coming from. They’re simply ignorant to the idea behind high-level play AND the “fun” in that. But that’s their preference so obviously they can play who they want.
Some others players play which ever game they prefer (fighting games, poker, FPS’s, etc) to the top most level. These are the obsessive people who can CRACK IT UP for hours/days because they love the mind games. At this point its not about doing the ROM over and over it’s about mixing your opponent up to pieces and WINNING!!! I have personally done some serious time on games I love like Tekken, poker, Marvel, etc. People who randomly picked up marvel and like the game enough to want to get to that level within whats left of the lifespan of marvel, shouldn’t start with low-tier period. Simply because it takes long enough to learn the top tiers to even compete now it will add even more years to the already steep learning curve (unless whoever is just a beast that have never played, which chances are so low I would bet it all day). Someone said it best when they said even most “new players” that are winning now really have been playing for years. Not to mention learning low-tier will not really help you AT ALL, let’s be honest low-tier is only played for self amusement.

So I just wanna say everyone should play for whatever reason they want and play whatever character/teams they want JUST PLAY MARVEL!!!

42

I was a player back in the dreamcast days, but never competitively because my local scene was like 3 of my friends. We weren’t very good and the only god tier I used was Cable (and my execution was shit on that dreamcast controller anyway).

Now I’ve been sticking with Storm-Sentinel-Cable online and I’ve actually started to pickup the occasional win against people that know what to do with good teams. Admittedly I play a very keep-away game, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Personally I don’t want some scrub to pick Ryu Amingo and Dhalsim so I can whip their ass. I want good players to pick their best and rush my ass down so I can learn as fast as possible. I feel like I’m learning the game more by going all out and doing everything I can to win, rather than hamstringing myself by forcing myself to use sub-par teams.

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This :coffee:

Dedication and time in the lab – you have to be prepared for what you are facing. Some of the comments reflect a mindset where you are almost asking someone why you are having such a hard time cutting steak with a spoon lol If you don’t want to use a knife, you have to be sure damn creative :slight_smile:

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Morg ain’t no threat to Sent. Coming from someone that actually plays Morg religiously.

What is this shit about leading the bus to “low tier marvel?”

Are you actually playing the game, or are you just looking for a way to be “different” and get attention? People don’t play low tier because its uncool, or because no-one ever stopped to figure them out, or anything. People play top tier because they want to win and that goes for any fighter.

Play who you want and make it work. Low tier doesn’t work easily and people go for the more practical option, which is with top and god tier that take full advantage of the system. Playing low-tier doesn’t make you any better or respected, so play who you want and how you want.

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Exactly tech romancer. I’ve been playing lower tier and it sucks. sometimes i have a top tier team almost beat and then that 1 hit changes all.

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About the learning curve of marvel…I dont think that you could be more incorrect. How in the world is “all the info out there?” You think justin wong, yipes, and sanford come post all of their best strats on dealing with each other. I mean, honestly, the learning curve is too high for somebody to pick the game up now and think that they could compete at a major marvel tournament WITHOUT playing one of the top players on a consistent basis for AWHILE. If you have a veteren to train with all the time then you are lucky in marvel. Your game can improve a lot faster than other people on the same playing field. I mean how do you think yipes became so beast all of a sudden. He played with wong sanford and hyo all the time, and he didn’t pussy foot around trying to be unique. He helped the game evolve on a more tactical basis, on a more deeper level (msp wise).

This post wasn’t meant to be like arguementative though, no offense is taken I hope. Its only my opinion :china:

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well what are we defining as the learning curve here? i mean, i would argue that it is exceptionally low in the sense that all the info you need is available and thats just the solid truth. you have evo dvd’s, a disgustingly large amount of videos on zach, this forum, youtube, gamefaqs, etc… besides some low tier shenanigans, i would say most top 8 characters have their hats out the bag. their best strats? watch any of the many many available videos out there if you wanna see what the best are doing. once you understand the system, and the basics, the rest is copy and paste. besides videos to steal shit, you obviously have this forum. i mean check evo2k9 mvc2. what is anyone doing different that they were’nt already doing, and i would say for a major tourney with money and pride on the line, i dont think anyone is holding back strats, and i dont think there is to much hidden left for the top 8 characters anymore. you would be more hard pressed with the lower tiers, but even then there is still a rack of shit available for a lot of the cast.

if we’re talking specifically your mags, sents, cables, commandos, iron man, storm, then yes, there is enough info out there for you to easily compete once you master the execution and get in the game time to get it done. now if we’re going by the fact that the learning curve is high due to availability of competition, then maybe we’re going somewhere, but thats no different then any game. available comp is always gonna be an issue. at least in mvc2, online isnt a bad option on good connections to learn the game a bit, but i agree that more so then other games, marvel requires a bit more fight time unlike many other games, so that is a hurdle for some, but my opinion is always that that is a case by case basis, and someone who really wants to put in the work can get pretty decent at marvel even without playing top players all the time.

just because playing the best characters give you such a high reward just for TOUCHING someone. mags touches you, its reset city. sent touches you, its lots of life lost quickly. cable has bars, its retina scan time with ahvb, and you better hope he aint got your partner in it. one storm combo into lightning storm, dhc to sent, is easy shit, and stupid damage. if you can at the very least master the execution for the god characters, your already taken care of more than half the battle, just because hell, you touch them they die. kill someone with ironman, next character is guard break city infinite.

you know, i would really like to see someone try an experiment by taking 2 people, and for a month you have one person play mvc2 at the arcade along with whatever videos, reading, etc…, and then have another person just practice purely by all the other means of the first person (videos, forums, etc.) but no arcade time, and see how that ends up. although you gotta take nerves into factor, i would like to see if there is any major skill difference between either way of learning. people arent as hardcore at learning a game as they type themselves out to be, and they just complain more than they actually try. they may be shocked if they truly tried.

to me as usual, execution is the biggest battle, and then from there learning the matchups, and those matchups are scattered all over the net for everyone. you study videos closely you will see more than combos, but how characters space, and when they call out their assist, how they keep themselves and their assist safe, etc… someones inability to learn quick enough to apply this knowledge or get over their nerves is a personal problem, and doesnt negate the fact that its very very possible to get decent at any game at this point without doing crack sessions everyday. new players will always make that complaint, knowing they just arent truly applying themselves. i dont think people understand how much time most top players put in, or have put in to being good at a game, and they spend a lot of time bouncing around from opinion to opinion, when they just need to sit down and study and practice like their life depends on it . lol

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you need to just play a top player and see if your opinion is still the same. every time i have played wong in a tournament, i didn’t feel like the reason i lost was execution, even if i did mess a combo up.

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No offense taken. I was merely talking of those who just picked up a new version of marvel AND want to get to the top before the game dies for good. At least that was the impression I was trying to give. To be clear I meant if you are completely new and want to be a “top player”, the learning curve is pretty steep even with top-tier, just IMO. I mean first you have to have excellent exectution and fully understand the engine, then you have to be great at mind-games after you learn ALL of the top tier stategies for each of the top 4 and their assists. If you have a top player near you that is able and willing to train you, then its obviously different. Plus I think Yipes is a good example of someone who is always a favorite NOW in every tourney he enters, but really have been playing for YEARS among the best. So I still don’t think random Joe Schmoe who can’t decide if its a better idea to start learning marvel with Santhrax or random low tier team (as Jimmy suggested), is gonna take any shorters than a few years to get to the top player level. Well maybe 2% of the gamer population. This was also not meant to be an arguement, more like a clarification. :china:

Jimmy I define the learning curve from deciding which team to start with (as title of this thread suggested, right?) to being able to play at a top player level. I did say “these are the people that want to play every game to the TOP MOST LEVEL”. This does not apply to those who just want to get “good”. Sure anyone can get good, or good enough to play anyways. Its also a combination of getting your exectution down and have viable competition to practice and learn with. I think all these things you are naming actually are justifying the long learning curve I speak of, I mean you do need ALL these things to get good at some point and time. Now to another point, I understand that it’s usually LOOKS like its gonna be a one hit kill when you see top players play Magnus, but it’s far from “reset city”. I personally see just as many resets get someone killed as they are trying it or if it gets blocked. Thats where the mind games come in of which reset to do. Great players will block the same reset. Shit they block random resets. If you are getting reset that many times you are playing against a top magnus (block or die) or you need to get your D up to par. As far as Cable’s AVHB, when he has three bars you have to play different. Again mind games, baiting, not calling helpers, etc. The point is if you know you’re playing someone good enough to DHC kill you, one hit kill you, shoot you, etc. Then you need to rely on your smarts to DHC kill him, shoot him, or one hit kill him. For me personally this is where the fun is, its not really the game and its top tiers at this point, I have already accepted the engine for what it is. Again I know it obviously is very possible for someone to get good, those are not the type of people I am speaking of. Also again I’m not advertising that everyone should just play top tier, I just want people to play marvel period, for whatever reason they deem necessary to themselves. :china:

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good post, just watching videos isn’t going to get your game solid enough to compete with top players. you always have to play with people that are as good as you or better than you to get you better.

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The “other” reason to not play top tier (this is the older, jobless, girlfriendless brother type of reason)…

Most of the peope who are good enough to own you regularly with top tier… will probably own you no matter what team you pick… and sure… you could go into training mode and get just as good as them using that character… but… by the time that number of YEARS passes… they will still have more experience with those toons than you…

On the other hand… you could do like VDO… and find a team that may not be as good overall… but has good matches with god tiers… and or tactics available that would come as a surprise to those who mostly use god tier…

when it comes to playing online… there are also semi-scrubby tactics that will ruin any tiers day… there are a lot of 100% THC’s out there… spiral, hulk, IM is a great one…hehe… 3 bars… wait to see opponents assist on screen… A1+A2… dead character… best point can do is pick his nose, block, and watch… and it doesnt matter if its mags or roll doing the nose picking…

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lol, i didnt know it takes years to learn how do launcher to lp, lk, mp, mk, hp. what do you think people are doing when they play marvel, rewriting the combo system, and doing magical glitches that only years of execution practice by a mage will get you to a level to do those combos.especially for mid/low tiers. even the tricks and advanced combos arent super hard, and for the lower tier there arent a slew of super advanced combos. there is a distinct difference between msp vs msp, santhrax vs team scrub, and rogue/ken/col vs rogue/thanos/spiderman. its not as random with one person touching you and your about to lose a large portion of your life, get caught up in reset hell, or get freely chipped to death. well, there are so mid/low tier teams that have good synergy and can fuck you up, but everyone knows the difference. i dont need to go deep into that.

i feel some people are partly in denial how often people get caught up in top tier shenanigans and quickly lose matches over it. yes, some things take more skill then ahvbx3, guard break, ahvb again. but people were getting taken to reset city in the evo finals, sanford busted out ahvbx3 (maybe 4) in the finals. its just a given that your gonna get fucked up on basically a coin toss in marvel at high level play with top tier characters. although it can be entertaining, and it doesnt take anything away from the level of skill of these players, but not to get off topic, the allure of lower tier play, is you get to play ( tbonne assist is garbage for lower tier play by the way, but ill deal. :slight_smile: random opinion).

you could get quickly made to look like an utter scrub once a player like yipes is down your throat, and j360 will make you lose all hope with iron man and war machine on your ass, but whatever, its all good, shit takes mad skill. i dont know, i still feel that if you wanna learn the game, then go at it how you want, and obviously people know how i feel. all the info is out there.

little off topic, but not much. i was reading sabins sf4 question thread randomly, and i saw him post something about a wild setup he saw with mago tiger kneeing over the opponent and then doing ultra, and he was like, thats not something you will find on the internet, you gotta be here. next page was a link to a youtube video of someone doing it almost a month ago. point being, i assure you, pretty much everything you need, aside for super advanced glitch shit for marvel is online somewhere, and for any game. people need to research and try harder before they assume otherwise.

other things come with time understandably. but really, if you can get down your basics very solidly, learn not to get caught up in cross up shenanigans and the like, then your good. can you pick up msp today, and 2 months from now duke it out with soomighty. maybe, if you have nothing else to do, your execution is good, and you spend hours studying marvel a day and playing people a day, but most likely no. can you face off with a player who has been playing for years, with a mid/low tier vs mid/low tier match and after two months of practicing, win. yes, in my opinion. your less likely to get caught in some killer shit with a wolvie/spidey/thanos vs venom/guile/jill match, then you are with a matchup with the top 8, but thats the accepted nature of that tier of play anyways, so whatever. yeah there are plenty of infinites and shit in the game, and you can lose a lot of life facing lower tiers too, but i think anyone who plays the game knows its pretty self explanatory as to the major differences in mid/low tier matches.

for me personally the game is considerably much more fun with mid/low tiers. i dont know, it doesnt matter, at this point its just a matter of opinion, and not so much anything else. unless it catches on, yes, if you want to compete, you just need to learn those top tier teams, because unfortunately i dont see the majors taking any different route with marvel outside of what its always been. if a major was like, mvc2 no god tiers, these are the restrictions, it would probably get a considerably low amount of people entering the tourney, and backlash also.

fortunately you have a decent online place now to match up if you want, so i feel like i made my point in the thread, but its done, and i do see a lot of interest in mid/low anyways. there is a whole thread about it in the xbox forum, and even players like demon hyo have more of an interest in not playing the god tiers often anymore. not saying this thread did anything, because i believe that xbox thread existed before this thread, and i been saw demons opinion on mid/low before i made this thread, but i think its made its run and i made my points clear. at this point its up to you. enjoy your mahvel baby!

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It does take years to master this game… thats just how it is… even then… no matter what tier you are playing… you can still get owned in 5 seconds if the other person is on their shit… even wong, sanford… or anyone else… sometimes gets snagged by IM… inf to death… gb incoming toon… inf to death… ect… scrubs are really only more vulnerable to this than pro’s in one way… that first hit… while it sounds like a small thing to avoid… its not… and the years of experience that allow the pros to avoid it long enough to try their own offense… DO make a huge difference.

Hell… I don’t know how many evo entrants i’ve seen who can probably do every single combo as the top players can… know almost all the same stuff… have read all the same information… can execute… ect… and still get owned 90% of the time by someone with better instincts and a better feel for the game… truth…

Experience…

Also who lies to themself about how often they lose to god tier? No one… fact of the matter is that some of the top psn players… i’ve played a number of times… and tho they might get my 3, 4, 5 times in a row… I get them a match eventually and not only does it feel amazing to be beating them with spiral, hulk, doom… AND they fucking know what just happened when it happens… they know they had every advantage in speed, combos, dmg… wtver… and still bit the dust… you get more respect winning this way… if they lose to another god tier team… i can just hear it in their head as they explain to themself they were beat by gods and not the player… when they lose to my team… there is no lieing to themself…

ALL the online mode needed for ranked… was to make wins worth less points when gotten with a handful of characters… make the win worth what it should be… have an in game tier list and what wins with each is worth… that would have been sick…

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nah, i dont believe that, and what to you mean by master the game? who do you know has mastered mvc2? there are players who have played a long time and know how to play other characters, but to throw out the word master is a bit overboard. lets look at the reality of the situation and what we’re really talking about. a few months with a top tier team you can become at the very least intermediate level with that team, and if within that few months your playing decent competition and studying hard, you can even be competitive in the game, because thats what those tiers do, they can take a player who only put in a years worth of half ass work into marvel, and have him random out an 8 year vet. its all good, its just the way the shit is. everyone knows that. any game has its hint of randomness, but i feel marvel top tier is filled with randomness.

maybe i just have an extremely bias opinion, but i cant fathom anyone having such extreme hardships learning the execution of the game or the game period if they really want to. the real fact is that people aint really puttin in that hardwork, and or they believe all these mysterious myths about fighting games, and how you can only compete after years of experience. like some samurai master bullshit. yeah, maybe that was true in the 90’s. when even if you had the execution down for a game, if you didnt have access to the knowledge of all the tricks and shit, you were gonna always get caught in that bullshit.

that just all sounds like conjecture to me.

huh, i think you kinda took what i said out of context in what i was referring to, and i dont understand what you’re talking about. i said i think people are in denial of how often they get caught in top tier shenanigans, in reference to people thinking, oh if you got caught, your just playing a beast or you need to step up your d, when in reality, it happens a lot, and to any level of player. im sorry, there is only so much you can do to avoid eventually getting ahvb to death, lightning storm to sentinel dhc to death, mags reset to death, iron man infinite to death, etc… did soo not perfect criz at evo this year, and tinh put yipes into losers (on youtube). top tier shenanigans. not to take anything away from tinh or soo’s gameplay at evo. just sayin.

maybe someone who’s in the super scrub status, and super lazy status, will take him years to eventually kick off the scrub dust and get to work, but its really not that hard if you want too. its 2009. so much is available to you now that just wasnt even dare i say, 3 years ago, that within any game, aside from some of the newer ones, you can find the info one way or another for you to climb that ladder quickly. laziness has nothing to do with games, its a human problem, and i can almost guarantee that just like there are probably 2 out of every 50 people that will crack the whip and get shit done, there is probably only 1 out of every 200 gamers that will crack the whip on themselves, but yet these same people will feel free to post online about how hard this is, and how someone like me is wrong for saying its easy to be good at a game after a few months, when its not that my theory is wrong, just they just wont apply it.

by the way, i have yet to say in this thread that i think you can be on yipes level in two months if you wanted to. i maintained that you can be competitive and pretty decent in the game regardless of your tier choice if you wanted to, but sky is the limit, shoot for whatever level in whatever time frame you want. if you think you will always be 3 years behind everyone else, then you always will. point blank. do you know anyone who has been a winner, and their mindset was always, im gonna always be 2nd place to this guy, but hopefully i beat him. no, you fight to win, and if you lose you lose. assuming someone who has played marvel since it came out is some genius god tier who’s hands have been dipped in jesus water, and you have no way of competing with them is ludicrous. well, unless they’re super god like. lol! but i dont know any players like that, nor have i heard of any marvel player that is just on a whole different level no matter who they play with. but ill stand corrected if there is someone im overlooking.

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if you dont have experience playing against top players, then it wouldn’t matter if you practiced marvel in a dungeon for 1000 years, you would still only win 1 game out of 100, if that.

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It does take years… and perhaps master was the wrong word b/c I dont know anyone who knows every single thing about every single character… but… being called a “master” at this game doesn’t really mean that anyways… at least not to me. It mostly just means a level of understanding that you cannot get by simply learning combos… I remember learning mag’s ROM years back… and I could do 10 reps in training mode long before I could start landing it in a match(against real opps). Same thing could be said even more for a lot of toons…

You make some good points… but the statement about 90% of tourney entrants remains. Its not conjecture… the proof is in the years of tourney results. Hell… there are some people in vids who’ve spent ungodly amounts of time learning ridiculous combos that they have almost 0 chance of ever landing in a match. It’s the instincts, twitch reaction, and most importantly… the mind games… that you must master to begin to land certain things against quality opps.

To play at the scrub level and never win against a good opp no matter what teams are chosen… yea… the learning curve isn’t that bad… hell… its not even bad first learning the game… BUT the learning curve to beat experienced opps… that does take time, work, and patience to get down. Even more so if you aren’t down with only picking from 8 characters.

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whats the point of being the best with your “own” low tier team if its not going to make you the best that everyone strives to be? The only way to be the best is to use the best.

Sure its fun watching low tier sometimes, but is it ever gonna make you win big? The real answer is no.

Look at me, i got top 8 at evo using MSP, then in final 8 I use Megaman Guile foolishly and get raped by MSP. It can’t win. People know me as a fancy “off the wall” type play style with a lot of low tier mixed with high tier teams. But new guys need to master each character individually and see how it would flow the with the right characters. Picking 3 cool people can’t win if the team doesn’t go together.

Look at my low tier teams, I need certain people paired with others.
Jill/Mag/Spiral - Jill needs spiral as an assist to do traps and setups, without spiral the team falls apart
Megaman/sent/guile - again, the 3rd character guile is vital to the team, if he is gone, the team is gone.

If I just pick characters I like, like megaman/iron man/spider man, the team doesn’t flow even though individually, they can be good, together they not.

Sorry for long tangent, but the bottom line is people should be picking teams that have a plan, not 3 characters that they like. They will never get good like that. And the strongest ones that flow together are the top 4 guys + assist. Thats why they have to learn them

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That’s all fine and good at evo or any time there are thousands of dollars on the line… but for online play or casuals… here’s the deal…

You pick god tier team, I pick low/mid/mix tier team… we fight…

You win 3 out of 4… 4 out of 5… 5 out of 6… 6 out of 7…but that one win I get with my team… will get 10x the cheers… you beat my spiral/hulk/doom with msp… you get sarcastic clapping…

so yea… money on the line = pick the team you are more likely to win with… other than that… only thing picking msp does is make your win over (inset random low tier team here) next to meaningless in most people’s eyes… but that misc time you lose to a lower tier team with msp (happens to everyone now and again) makes you look worse and the winner look that much more slick.

Sure… maybe if you hadn’t picked guile you MAY have won… or you may have lost anyways… but had you won using him… you’d be a legend… so its all about what you are willing to risk vs what you hope to gain.

Look at joe zaza… quality player for sure… but his main claim to fame is that he got a handful of wins over top teams… a handful… thats it… and no offense intended… but his “name” is more widely recognized that yours in the game. Not because he’s likely better… but b/c when he put double wolvie out there… the risk to return ratio was like amazing… while with msp… its 1:1 at BEST.

When it comes to bragging rights… you get nothing at all by beating up low tiers with gods… nothing… at… all.

When it comes to tourney money… you could make 1000 times more if you worked a low paying job for the same number of hours you have practiced at this game so make wtver case you want for that I guess… the money doesn’t mean much… its the bragging rights that matter… and you get a MUCH better return on those using low tier. It’s about respect and someone doing well with low tiers gets more every time than someone pulling the same old god tier stuff. Why be just another guy who won evo with msp or santhrax… when you could be the only guy to ever win it with guile. THAT would make you legend.

Also… you keep using the words… the best… the best… the best… do you think then… that you are a “better” player b/c you can beat on up low tier using gods? That’s the biggest fallacy around.

Using the flat word “can’t” in reference to low tiers ability to beat the gods is also just not true. “More difficult” would be much more fitting given the obvious video evidence out there of people like zaza, vdo, vegita-x… beating gods with “their” team… that you tout as being pointless for them to be the best with. All three of these guys are more greatly respected around here than many many many people who have done better in tourneys. B/c they are better players… …they have to be to keep up… they rise to a challenge… RESPECT IT!!

None of this aimed at you personally either DS… really… general statement using your comments as points. I know you like to roll a lot of low tier and I respect that.

Sorry for this damn novel… but the respect some people get by not being the best… but instead being mid lvl or merely good… but using gods… is mind boggling at times… When I watch tourney matches… I long to see the best players competing… not the best toons…

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You can just do fun stuff with top players too. Watch these
[media=youtube]6Stgxojz3B0&feature=PlayList&p=F0580F44EF6818FA&index=0&playnext=1[/media]

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lol… hilarious…

Its true… gods can be fun… it’s not that I don’t ever play any of them… I really only use them for fun though…

And I damn sure wouldn’t be walking around puffy chested b/c I beat up on low tiers using them… like some of the turds around here who play for bragging rights they hardly deserve even after winning.

It’s all fun for me… I just enjoy it… thats it. People taking things seriously… ok… thats good… makes for the most fun fights… but talking serious shit just makes you look like a jackass when using god tiers vs low…

Tho I don’t follow racing… I sorta equate this analogy… would you feel like a badass who deserves respect for winning a stock car race while driving an F1? Hell no… course I’m sure racing doesn’t allow this… unfotunately… Mahvel does…lol

That being the case… just gotta find ways to ruin the oh so elite plans of teams like msp… one the i’ve been doing on PSN to make msp eat shit is spiral/hulk/juggs… teleport around calling juggs and tossing knives… turn the whole match into one big pile o chaos… a couple of juggs dash assist leaves psy not wanting to come out for a hot second… which in turn makes mags or storm go into rushdown mode without that support that saves em from shit like headcrush or gamma charge xx gamme crush… i’d equate this to stock car drivers knowing they can’t keep up with the f1 and ramming him into submission…lol not that it always works… but last night was 2 more wins off highly ranked msp’s with low tiers… which i live for…hehe