The point having a TOD on her doesn’t mean she will be at disadvantage, she could have some crazy trap’s or ridiculous mixups that go into combos that go into more mixups or who knows what. Capcom gave her this life intentionally and it was probably to offset something they think is amazing. Whether or not it’s as good as they think will be discovered when we actually have the game.
Personally I think it’s the healing shield they are trying to offset, but hopefully there is a lot more. Don’t get me wrong I like low health heavy pressure characters. I loved Strider, but she makes strider look beefy in the health department. Her ability to lock down the opponent is going to have to be pretty damn god like.
If they have even a moment to react any random bull shit could come out and kill her.
Likely my complaint stems from the fact I know I am not nearly good enough to use her although I want too. She looks super fun, but also OVERLY risky.
I sure hope its not healing field lol. Healing doesn’t help you much when you can’t survive anything.
You know, I could’ve cared less about this stupid argument, but I really can’t stand it when people are flat out proven dead wrong, and refuse to admit it. You said it was impossible to out class someone at tournament level. You were shown otherwise.
Instead of admitting wrong like a decent poster, you obstinately floundered and changed the argument to a comparison of engines instead of tourney scenes. Even though you rendered such a comparison pointless by stating yourself that they were incomparable engines. IF they are compared, it’s still a pointless hypothetical if they’re incomparable isn’t it? Comparing Phoenix to Rufus should be intuitively wrong to any poster.
Heres another example of tournament outclassing: [media=youtube]aGoB_vVmBs4&feature=related[/media]
I eagerly await your attempt to say the MVC2/MVC3 engines are too different for comparison. I have loads of clockw0rk perfects on my hard drive just waiting to say hi. You remember Strider right? Died in a single Mags or Storm combo? Won Evo’s etc?
Why do you keep gong hack and slash on a strawman? It’s abundantly clear what he was talking to say. Arguing over some small semantic in his argument is completely intellectually irresponsible.
As for Phoenix I’d be wary of ever using her as an assist. With the way she takes damage + the way assists take damage she could die way too easily. Of course you want to do your best to cover an assist, but the risk of losing her over one mistake doesn’t seem worth whatever she’d be throwing out. It seems hard enough to keep her alive on point, but using her as an assist is raising the stakes.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently. Obviously her tracking fireball would be a bad idea to use unless you are 100% sure it’s safe, but her flying torpedo assist comes out fast, leaves fast, and could be a good “get off me” if it has some invincibility frames. Plus, depending on who your point character is, it might be useful to bait the punishment and then counter it. You might be right though - I am in serious need of frame data. Plus it would be nice to know what her third assist is.
What semantic? He said something that was wrong and refused to own up to it, when you held up evidence. It’s not clear at all what he’s saying considering he’s flat out contradicting himself.
As for any attempt to condemn Phoenix to trash tier or god tier, may I recommend three words that really aren’t so hard - ‘I don’t know’. Theory fighter is fine. Categorical statements from positions of ignorance are not.
/sigh I am beginning to believe this is a lack of understanding. So let me try and clarify my original point before we go one with this.
My original post was saying I doubt Phoenix will be used in tournaments. My reasoning was because you won’t be able to be vastly superior to your opponents. Now to clarify what I mean is, you won’t be able to to this for every opponent for every tournament.
Now I believe you last paragraph was finally on point to the discussion at hand. My thoughts on strider were made evident just a few post up in this thread, but for the sake of trying to keep the discussion going I’ll reiterate. Strider died to only God tier Characters, and even then he was considered a counter pick to one of them. Phoenix also has less health to even him, making her able to die to pretty much the entire cast in one simple combo. This include counters and not counters alike.
And NO ONE is speaking categorically here, this is your assumption. This is simply my “doubts” my thoughts of what may happen.
Her third assist is one of the TK traps. I think it’s the up/forward variant. I just saw a list too, but I can’t remember where. I believe it was on the archive of the Justin TV stream:
Justin.tv - Top Tier Gaming - Marvel vs. Capcom 3 100% Legit Copy
What semantic really? You have shown me INDIVIDUAL EXAMPLES of where someone out classes another person in a tournament. This was NEVER THE MAIN POINT. It was a sub point in the overall argument. Even then you couldn’t understand what I meant by the sub point which is in the long haul, for the entire major or series of majors you won’t be able to dominate everyone so completely. I thought that was evident but apparently it wasn’t. Then I EXPLAINED THAT TO YOU, and you chose to ignore it and spout off saying I was contradicting myself which is obviously not the case. I made my point in order of which applies.
- Can’t compare the two engines (SF4 and MvC3; I feel the need to clarify this for you since you have fucking ignored anything that needs to be infered)
- Even if you could I don’t see how the example given would help to disprove my original point. And then I gave reasons to why that is.
Maybe, just maybe if you read the original post I made about all this and stuck to it instead of trying to pick apart a perhaps poorly worded sub point this wouldn’t have happened.
As Bronzefist said, Jean’s third assist is TK trap with a forward up motion. So the aegis shield into flame bird projectile fired upwards.
I don’t think Phoenix is a character for me, but she’s the one I’m more interested in figuring out.
I wouldn’t play her raw using the Healing field (a quick high damage combo is likely to kill her even with Healing on), so my main strategy would be get those 5 meters and bring her in. And that leads to the problem of getting her safely in the match (no DHC’s for me).
Seems like she can build lots of meter with team air combo, but isn’t the character at the air exchange choose at random? One less option to bring her in safely - unless you like to gamble. =)
Dunno if I would risk using her as an assist, she’s just too fragile. But that can be a strenght. People won’t expect you to use Phoenix as an assist, so most of the times you may catch them off guard.
But my main reason of concern is that Dante (and maybe others) can 100% one of the two other characters in my team when I don’t even have 2 meter, and that’s game for the other guy.
I’ll be looking forward to see what you guys are going to discover about her.
Very cool, I was hoping she would get a trap for the third assist. Before I look through an hour and a half of footage, do you know if the player ever used it? I’d like to know how easy it is to punish and how useful the direction is.
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Does it actually protect at all in shield form though? That’s like my #1 question about that move. Does it stop projectiles or anything? I’m desperate to know, because I will definitely put Phoenix on my team is she can protect Dormammu from beam spam.
He chose TK overdrive instead so no. No idea of its functionality.
So it wasn’t so much an assertion that not even a player who was substantially better than another player could win with Phoenix because there isn’t enough of a skill gap at tourneys, but because of her health. This is equally wrong. Not just because we’re trying to make categorical assertions about characters we know nothing about, but because we’ve seen 100% combos from Dante on multiple cast members. 2 meters and a KFC seems like it will wipe out half the cast in a combo.
As for Strider, DHC’s with most combination of teams will do him in. Any Tron assist team definitely will. A moot point anyway, considering the competitive teams had effortless TOD on Strider, and he was STILL top tier in tournament play. What does it matter if some low tier team can’t TOD, when he’s a top tier glass cannon even against the big 4.
If Phoenix is low tier, it won’t be because of her health. And trying to make any direct correlation with tiers on solely the basis of health is silly. Let’s wait till the games out for a year before writing up tiers, not before it’s even out and we don’t know jack shit.
You didn’t explain shit. You literally refused to explain what you meant. Instead of explaining that your poorly worded post was meant to mean that she wouldn’t be used because of her health not skill gap, you made one of the most fucktarded comparisons between Rufus and Phoenix that was blatant self-contradiction and added nothing to your point about Phoenix. You mumbled something about semantics and went on to say Psychojoshes Zangief would’ve killed Phoenix. You wonder why I had no idea wtf you were talking about?
no character can kill strider in a single “simple” combo in mvc2. they have to be doing some advanced shit, resets, or dhc kill him. do about 75 percent damage yes. i have mvc2 on right now. with storm,iad hk, cr lk, launch, sj lp lk mp mk lightning attackx2 to lightning storm does like 75 percent. a simple launch with sent to lp lk mp mk rocket paunch, fp, fly is the same. magneto doing iad lk,mk,cr lk, launch, fp, fp, fk, cr fk is about 75 percent and takes at least some intermediate level skill to do. yet, in mvc3, abc hadouken, shinku hadouken murdered phoenix, and ryu isnt even the heaviest hitter in the game, nor does he have the greatest offensive options LOL.
she must be broken to shit to have that health. too bad shes not scrub friendly, im sure a lot of people wanted to play her and are now like, ugh. haha. eh, we’ll see. i still dont trust playing a character with such low health. its marvel, you gonna get touched, and if shes absurdly broken somehow, she will get banned. so wtf. she wont be a point character, so she will be getting snapped in and murdered by people. there is no advantage once you snap someone in unless she can do something special, so your gonna be at a 50/50 unless someone creates an unblockable, then dead phoenix with no meter used most likely.
For some reason, this signature has a particular appeal to it right now.
No one is saying we have empirical evidence to back up our obvious assumptions. It’s a discussion nothing more. The first half of this paragraph is all I was looking for in the first place. Discussion. Anyhow the difference between having to DHC or KFC a character dead is one thing. For most if not all the cast I doubt it will take anything other than a magic series to kill her. Little to no sacrifice. Hence where the skill comes in. The only way ANYONE will have a tough time killing is if the person playing her is simply way better than themselves. But, I honestly hope that her health isn’t a big a factor as I fear. It’s just that, it’s one thing to combo, dhc, or combo xfc hyper (or some other variation thereof) a character dead and “standing c, hyper dead”. With that little health it goes from worrying about what specific tactics the opponent may do to kill you (in other words they will have to work for it) to what random bull shit may happen and make me go from 100% to dead ON TOP of worry about what more purposeful tactics your opponent is applying.
I did explain shit, it’s right here (the quote below). I wondered why you had no idea because EVERYONE else seemed to understand.
The blatant “self contradiction” was a response to a SUB POINT. And it wasn’t a contradiction at all. I was pointing out the pointlessness of the example given. There were two reasons why it was pointless, one was I wasn’t going to seriously consider that comparison, and even if I did it wouldn’t turn out in favor of overturning my original point. the examples I gave were only to show that even if I seriously considered that comparison (which HE MADE not me) that it wouldn’t work out. Seriously why is that so hard to understand.
Honestly it seems to me instead of following from the beginning you jumped in the middle of the convo and are surprised because you didn’t understand what was going on.
You think you can just random low health characters out? That’s your reason for deeming her low tier? Randoming? Really?
Who’s everyone? Hotobu? I’ve never seen an Ad populum based on one person. Also, here’s your supposed explanation:
Further BS about tourney skill gaps.
You still don’t see how undermining your own point and making it anyway is nonsense? I kind believe all this oblique wording and contradiction amounts to “Hur dur, just random her out. Mashing will totally stop her at tourney level”. Waste of my damn time.
Thanks man, always nice to have other’s input, I mean after all, it goes without saying that we are on an Open forum for speculative discussion. Stay Classy =)
I respect this.
On another note: I’m curious to see how her flight mode pans out, particularly her speed, and what type of fast fly capabilities she might have.