Apoc thanks for posting up in here. That random video interview you had of me after my match with King opened my eyes even more about fighting games in general.
This man speaks truth.
thats some of the dumbest shit i have ever read, go pick flowers you hippie. If you werent competitive, you wouldnt be trippen about me comming to your area to take the SFIV tournament at gamestop. stop making excuses for your lack of skill. This thread is to build people up, not your negative non-sense.
i believe my biggest problem when i play is my second guessing myself in my head. im always asking myself, “yes, or no?” now, one of my friends is a martial artist, and took a few classes in psychology. we had a LONG conversation of how the brain and body works in a fight. muscles in the arms and legs fill with more blood to strengthen them. tunnel vision happens to focus on the target. adrenaline flows. breathing becomes deeper to accelerate blood flow. now thats all coming from one part of the brain (dont know which part, but lets say the front).
now, when you have to make rational decisions, like “yes, or no” questions, youre using the total opposite side of the brain. how does this affect you in a fight? well, since the blood has to move to another part of the brain, your fighting prowess will be lessened. he told me he always lost sparring matches when he had a mouth guard. because he couldnt talk to his opponent. he couldnt make them use the other part of thier brain.
now, as a fighter myself, i never run into these problems in a fight. but when im playing a game, they always pop into my head and really fuck with my whole flow of battle.
this came to mind after reading the awesome apoc post. to do things naturally and second nature so youre never second guessing yourself.
great thread!
dont underestimate the player
i was talking to mickey and i dont know if this applies to you guys but when i play, one of MY biggest problems is i tend to underestimate. this causes me to lose and then i get mad at myself because thats where i fucked up. i realize EVERYONE can be beat and coming from a guy that doesnt win much, i really like playing people who i believe are better than me because that makes me bring my a game, and play better. now say i manage to win that match…NOW IM PUMPED, and I NOW FEEL, YOU gotta bring it to ME and if i dont know who you are or i think ima crush you, and im just gonna get buck nasty so you better watch out,l i tend to not adapt and make poor choices which ends up in me losing.
example? umm GAMEWORKS…yeaaa im talking about
THE LEGENDARY BACKWARDS HAT MEXICAN DUDE…YES BHMG SAGAT
you know what hes gonna do! you knows hes mashin! you know what to do and what not to do!
now have you lost to him? be honest.
why is it? YOU UNDERESTIMATED THE GREATEST MASHER IN SF4 TO DATE. we all KNOW we’re better than that guy. its a fuckin fact. i have better execution with my feet than that dude. but that doesnt change the fact that when i walk up to play that guy, my arrogance gets the better of me and i end up losing. i like this thread, cuz when i lose im mad at myself and i know i am my own worst enemy. apoc, i like to lose more than win if i can learn from it and thats more important to me. im tryna get better tho! so if i ever play you…try not to get beasted on so i know who you are hahaha j/k
jacob
AND NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWERS OF THE HANDICAPPED!
Thanks bro:) I didn’t see your post before. Thanks for the encouragement. I hope it really does help:)
Apoc.
Hopefully you guys realize this applies to more than just fighting games. :wgrin:
The importance of sitting on a lead
There are a lot of times that I realize players doing things just to do them. What I mean by that is, maybe you missed a reversal or two, or maybe you absolutely know what your opponent is sending you, yet your answer to what he’s sending you isn’t cutting it. In your mind, you believe it’s supposed to win, however it’s pretty obvious that it isn’t winning. This puts players in an overall shitty position. You’ve officially conditioned yourself to do something that isn’t working, and you begin to get frustrated and unfocused while your at it.
One of the biggest problem with players that I can see is that most players don’t understand or value the importance of sitting on a lead. It’s a very simple concept to understand, you are up about 30% in life and you let your opponent come to you. Now this doesn’t necessarily mean “turtle the fuck out of it dude!” It just means that you let your opponent make his own mistakes, while still pressing on the advantage. Another way of looking at it is like this…when you rush down you put yourself out there and increase the risk of getting hit. Very different from that, when you play defensively you take that risk away. A marvel player once put it like this “When your losing, rushdown. When your winning, run away.”
Rushing down when your in the lead is fine, however it’s only warranted after you’ve gained the opportunity. For instance, if you still have the momentum after hitting combo after combo, I see no reason to stop going after my opponent. At the same time, once my momentum breaks, its back to playing defensively.
When your up in health compared to your opponent, let your opponent make the mistakes. Sit on your lead, but balance it with being able to press on the advantage. Becoming “explosive” is something not easily attained in this game…from going to defensive to completely offensive on the drop of a dime, it takes a lot of work to know when exactly you should be rushing down…more importantly speaking, WHY your rushing down. All in all, try to learn to appreciate putting in your time, and letting your opponent make the mistakes. You’ll find that most players don’t realize that they’re actually beating themselves up more then you are beating them up.
My problem with sitting on leads is that when I tend to slip up when they are trying to get in and then I lose the lead with 5 seconds left on the clock 
I don’t have the conviction of needing to win to sit on a lead. I start goofing around and the game falls apart on me.
I envy JMar that: he’s a phenomenally better player than I will ever be. He’s got a stunning ability to memorize combos quickly + excellent timing, but both he and Issariya in my eyes seem to think it’s their destiny to win any match. That laser-like focus on the goal of winning is I think a substantial difference maker. When I’m playing you, I play you as a friend. When Jason plays you, I see him playing against an onscreen Enemy, and he’ll save the niceties for post-match.
This may or may not be on topic, but here goes:
The one thing I like about playing fighting games is simply being able to be around some of the best players in the “cyber-sport”. It doesn’t matter if you’re a beginner or a seasoned pro, the opportunity to meet and play with players such as John Choi, Alex Valle, Justin Wong, Daigo can be easily arranged.
This is one of the things I’ll never understand about spectator sports. I don’t understand how people can pay hundreds of dollars to watch a game they’re not really a part of. Good luck meeting any of your sports heroes if you’re not among the elite or don’t have the means attend some autograph session. If I ever become someone that watches sports all day, somebody please shoot me!
This is our sport. We are its players. This is real. If you don’t like it, please find something else that suits you.
SRK - We The Best!
EDIT: This post is meant to trash on the non-players. Not on “real” sports or otherwise. I respect players of all levels. To be simply a spectator is the lamest thing ever. Be a doer, not a watcher!
In response to josh’s post about underestimating a player, I’d like to talk about the exact opposite of that:
Over-estimating your opponent or giving them too much respect.
Now before I go forward let me clarify this too much respect line: I’ll dip into the poker world to help define this.
So for those that have played poker you know that there are those players that will sit and not play anything except buff ass hands (aces kings suited slick etc etc), and when they have hands like that they will bet out strong. So if you yourself don’t have a hand to compete with you let it go respecting that players bet.
This is what I mean by respect, acknowledging that the person knows the ins and outs of his gameplay etc.
Now let’s put this in sfiv terms. you have mickey playing ryu, now knowing that his ryu is solid you know that yo shouldn’t be trying to jump in on him, in fear of that dreaded dp => fadc => ultra. You are giving him that respect that if given the oppertunity he will hit you with that combo no questions ask.
Now let’s move on to playing ppl online. From past experiences I’ve come across ppl that are scrubs to the game ken players in particular, now I’ve played against mandel’s ken and have gotten a general idea on what I should do in these situations, but what I’m goofing up on is I’m giving these scrubs the same benefit of the doubt. I won’t do certain things against them because I know a seasoned player will punish accordingly, and I also will do other things in situations because against a seasoned player they wouldn’t try to be wreckless about it.
Here’s my example:
I played a ken player and it was a little laggy, there was a point where I saw that I could bait his dps and punish accordingly, what I didn’t expect (and this probably had to do with lag too) is that after he did a fierce dragon punch that was blocked when I went to punish he went and did ultra as he landed, hitting me and ultimatel lost the match.
The point I’m getting at here is while you want to give certain seasoned players that respect on their knowledge of the game, giving that same respect to all players could lead to negative results as well, now what I’ve done to compensate this online is to something that I know a competitve player would know how to react to. OR watch and see what m opponent does in the beginning of the match…usually if I see a ken player jumping backwards and start spamming fb’s like he’s ryu gives me a general idea on where this player stands…same thing if their bnb combo is jump in roundhouse to sweep =p.
^Not gonna mention names, but I’ve seen beast players lose to shitty people because of that, mostly in their online matches. I think half way through the first ROUND most people here with the exception of me should be able to tell and switch up their gameplan accordingly. Sometimes you gotta let up because if you do too much it can back fire on you. I’ve won like this as well, where someone will do something solid and even though I’m not good, I can still recognize patterns and act accordingly. I get an ugly win, but a win is a win.
This relates heavily back to “reading an opponent.” Being able to exploit a players weakness is key in winning against silly matches like this. It really sucks because I’ve noticed that there are types of matches that I try to learn from, and types of matches where I try to win…against certain players like THIS, nothing is ever really learned…instead what I realize the best thing to do is to exploit their weakness as a player, and use it to my advantage to win.
Every once in awhile you’ll get the player that likes to shoryuken through your strings every chance he gets…and I’ll admit, that for a couple times, it’ll hit. However what’s key is to bait it out and adapt to the play style at hand.
Ah. I understand what you mean. I’m not gonna talk long on this, but I think it’s two cents worth adding (if it hasn’t already been said) that goes with what you’ve said… and is based on my experience at Ground Kontrol yesterday (which was… for better or worse… my first legitimate tournament ever).
I’m gonna say that it’s important to know your own strengths and weaknesses as a relational person when approaching a match. I know that… for me… going to Gamestop’s gig… not knowing anyone there… entering with all kinds of unfamiliar pressure to fight and come out on top… well… I caved under the pressure. I’m not going to go so far as to say “I should have won that event.” The fact that I lost is proof enough that I shouldn’t have, but I can say that the way I approached it… and the way I approached Slugfest… were two totally different things.
At Gamestop… all I walked away with was a new hatred for the stock 360 pad and a realization that I’m way too dependent on rushdown/attacking from the air as Ken… and that really doesn’t work against a Flash Kick-happy Guile.
When I was at Ground Kontrol… things were totally different. I admit that I wasn’t the most social of people when it came to getting out and talking with people I didn’t know (this has never been my strong suit), but I was able to sit in and talk shop with a few people and even get some casuals in while waiting for the tournament to start. It was a much more personable atmosphere. Add in that there were people that I’ve talked with on the forum or Live… and I was far more comfortable.
When I found out that my first match was against SamB in SFIV, I made it a point to spend a few minutes talking with him. Talked a little about the game itself… talked about experience… whatever. When match time came, there were thirty people watching… and the same do-or-die scenario was there… but the pressure was gone. I wasn’t any more tense (well… maybe a little) than I would be playing with guys over Live from the comfort of my couch.
I may have gotten raped by Sam’s Boxer, but I walked away feeling good about it. (no homo) Yeah… I lost… but I lost to someone I knew (if only vaguely)… and that made all the difference in the world. I learned more about my tendencies, where I need to improve, what things to watch for, etc…
Alright… so this is turning more into a reflection post than an actual help guide, so I’m just going to hop back to my main point and leave you be.
Basically, know who you are and what in what circumstances you perform your best. If you tense up under pressure, get to know your opponent before the match. If the do or die mentality helps you play at your best… see the guy you’re fighting as your enemy (as Preppy worded it) clear through the match.
As I’ve learned… being able to play well at home doesn’t necessarily mean crap in a tournament, so take whatever steps you can to make your match environment better suited for your personality strengths.
Reading your opponent is the key to winning. Execution is the least important factor to winning imho
On sitting on a lead. Its good make them feel like an attack is comming soon tho to mind fuk them with footsies. Some I played recently was using honda against me with 10% HEALTH when my life bar was pretty much full and he we was using straights as if he was holding the lead hoping I’m a dumb fuk. I saw that as aslap in the face and jus ran the time out because I had a huge lead. Stuff like this disappoints me because people don’t analysis the situations enough
How do I become better? I feel stuck!
I typed this out for a guy asking for help in the SF4 forum and felt as if it might belong here. Maybe this’ll inspire people to write. I deleted this post from the actual thread that it pertained to because I didn’t read that he was actually talking about consistency in skill…instead of improving his game. Basically the REAL answer to his question is “practice makes perfect.” However I misread and thought he was asking “how do I up my game? I feel stuck!.” Anyways hopefully people might like this one.
A very basic quote:
Play SMARTER…not better.
Thinking outside of the box, and making things cut and dry can help you play better instantly. For instance…going in depth into matchup data is silly to me. There’s no need to know “this beats this” or “i can do X when he does Y.” When really…matchup data is as easy as saying “He really wants to be close to me…I should keep him out.” It’s as simple as saying “What are my tools to stop him from doing what he wants?”
You begin to learn that once you have a foundation…THEN you can go into your “if he does x, I do y.” For example, I could tell you all these analytical in depth factors of how to play any type of matchup…but really it just gets down to: This is what my opponent wants. This is how he play, and this is what his habits are. Now what are MY options as to defeating this type of play style?
Combine the knowledge of your matchup data with your knowledge of how a player plays…you’ll realize that you’ve become a smarter player…and with that, you’ve done nothing to attain a higher skill, yet you’ve heightened your game up into where your playing smarter, not better.
I took Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu through my community college last summer. It was a great class, and I had a great instructor. He said something in a class that really got my attention. He argued against the view that “practice makes perfect.” He made it clear, time and time again, that practice makes pattern. If your pattern is correct, then practicing it will yield results that you could call perfect. On the other hand… if your pattern is incorrect, and you keep practicing it… you’re screwing yourself over.
Once you lock in a pattern (I think the number my instructor often gave was 300 repetitions… I don’t have scientific data to back this off-hand)… it takes far, far more time to get rid of the old pattern and replace it with the right one (I think the number of repetitions he gave was somewhere between 10x and 100x that).
So… that was what I learned in BJJ class… what does it mean in the land of fighting games?
The same thing. From physical posture and the way you control your arcade stick to the mechanical application of using attacks (such as knowing exactly how long you need to charge before throwing a sonic boom) and counter-attacking to the theoretical understanding of combo development and opposing attack pattern recognition.
In my book, and this is something I’m sure you’ve all heard before (if you don’t think it yourself)… the thing that makes fighting games such an amazing medium for competition is that it blends all of these things together. At top-level play, Street Fighter is at least as strategic as a game of chess… it’s just lighting fast in contrast. Though fighting games do not demand the full-body physical conditioning of an Olympic athlete, success does demand a level of training in fine-motor application and the development of body memories/reflexes.
I could write for days about why Street Fighter and its ilk should be so much more highly esteemed outside of its core fanbase than it is (actually… I’d love to write a thesis revolving around fighting games… but that’s another story), but I’m venturing away from the point of this post… and the point of this thread… in my great love for competitive fighting games.
The point I was trying to make is that we can quickly become our own worst enemies when we learn bad habits instead of good habits. SRK is the resource for theory, technique, and application. Add in that some of the best players in the world are here, and we clearly have some of the best possible resources available at our fingertips. There’s no excuse not to learn things the right way from the start.
Learn proper execution and best application of standalone attacks. Learn the fine details of specials. Have extremely strong and perfected fundamentals since the bread in butter is what will carry you through most fights (I’m sounding like my instructor again… lol).
Mickey D’ nailed it: Play SMARTER… not better.
Learn the right way from the start… don’t practice (or in more direct terms)… don’t fricking keep using the same things because they work on a scrub if they’re gonna set you up for failure later. Sure, you can j.HK -> c.HK all day against some scrubs, and it will be effective. Hell, it can work on good players from time to time, but it’s way too easy for a skilled veteran to predict that and own you for it. If you continually use that pattern… even if you win… you’ll be setting yourself up for a fall later when you instinctively try it over and over and over again. Play smarter… don’t get caught in a rut.
So learn your shiz. Have fundamentals nailed down to perfection before getting too carried away into flashy things (FADC xx Ultra or whatever) since fundamentals win fights. But don’t neglect the theory side of things, either. Again, playing off of Mickey D’. Knowing matchups (in terms of characters and in terms of players) will serve you well.
Knowing that scrubs are prone to trying to nail you with a fierce shoryuken every time they’re within half a screen of you makes it extremely easy to predict what comes next. Every time I get remotely close to a scrub… he’ll try to bite my face off. A quick back dash (or even a simple block) results in a whiff… and a long opportunity to punish. Just as he’s hitting the ground, I throw him (mostly because I think that will piss him off more than a tatsu or counter shoryuken). And while it is potentially dangerous to use this all of the time if it’s building a bad habit, the reality is that punishing whiffed attacks can carry over to much higher-leveled players.
And that mentality… practicing the balance of rushdown, long-range, and punishing… that’s something to always work on developing.
Which brings me to another point worth considering (though I imagine most of you already employ this). I read in an interview with Seth Killian some of his sage advice. One piece of advice he gave is that you always have a gameplan before starting a match instead of simply playing based on reactions and making things up as you go. Practicing playing with a gameplan is no small thing… yet it’s easy to overlook. Gameplans don’t have to be (and, functionally, cannot be) play-by-plays. Gameplans are what Mickey D’ was talking about when it comes to trying to keep a player at a distance or any other basic kinds of flow control.
I apologize if I’m jumping around everywhere while writing this. As some of you know (from my incessantly self-pitying posts)… I’ve been very sick for a while now… and my mind is starting to give me trouble (jumbled thoughts and all). So, like I said, I’m sorry if this seems a bit scatterbrained (which would make sense considering the source).
I think I’ll close out with this: as much as I stress fundamentals (and for good reason, I think), and as much as I try to drive home the idea of practicing the right things in the right way in order to be most effective, I’ve gotta go back to that aside about fighting games combining multiple aspects of who and what we are. Street fighter is physical and mental… practical and theoretical. To be the ultimate fighter, you have to properly understand and appreciate all aspects of the game and your opponents. Having the best reaction time in the world is not a surefire way to win matches. Knowing how to analyze a fight and theorize victory is no more a certainty for success. It’s only when everything fuses together that becoming a fighting game juggernaut is plausible.
-Kenny
Kenny…you just killed this thread with some AMAZING information right there. I just need to say…Candidate for rookie of the year anyone?
Thanks. I appreciate the love. Granted, uhm… just about everything I say is echoing what others have said here… or Seth Killian said… or what I read in Domination 101… or from odds and ends of applying things from college to Street Fighter.
But… if I can contribute anything to the community, then I want to do that (I’d prefer to keep my blood and the majority of my small bits of money, though).
ive been a follower of the “Play smarter, not better” concept since playing scrubs at gameworks. no need to try to bait a jump in so you can srk FADC ultra, when you can dash, block wake up srk/tiger upp, sweep til dead.