Hyper SF2 AE: Ken

Classic Fighting Games Other Games
1

i would post this in a large thread but the game is out and i think char specific is the way to go. anyway, i have a basic understanding of Ken, since i’ve been playing him since '92. all his low kicks are good pokes from appropriate ranges, but gotta be careful with low sweeps because of lag. crouch strong and crouch jab are good in close as well, i think… antiair is crouch fierce, standing forward, standing roundhouse, sometimes standing fierce (from a distance). obviously that changes for his ST version, since standing roundhouse becomes a distance poke, his standing forward is the axe kick i think? maybe that’s just the close one. anyway, Shoryuken is also antiair and is invincible in all but ST versions of course. Hadouken is good to neutralize other fireballs from long range, good for forcing people to jump (famous Hadouken-Shoryuken trap), good to cancel lag of a blocked sweep, and decent if it’s used sparingly since he doesn’t have the speed or recovery that Ryu has. i guess Tatsumaki is a decent way to travel, or to put in combos, but it doesn’t knock down and doesn’t seem especially safe. i know that i use it to hop over Sagat’s low tiger, Sim’s Yoga Fire, and Guile’s Sonic Boom… but i think it’s risky that i’m doing that, and i only use short Tatsumaki. i know little about his ST version so i’ll let someone else say stuff about his kicks, i just hear there’s a way to make him appear on the other side of a grounded person and if they try to attack, they attack the wrong way.

anyway, i know more about his CE and HF versions than Super or ST… i like CE best for some reason, i think he does more damage, and for some reason i just feel better with the CE version compared to HF. does anyone know if the HF version was otherwise toned down, despite the addition of the air Tatsumaki? or is it just something mental?

correct anything that’s wrong, just trying to start discussion and improve Ken knowledge here.

2

I just played a friend’s HF Ken last night, and I noticed that a blocked meaty jab dp is relatively safe, since he recovers from it fast enough, and stays out of range. I was using ST Ryu against him, and when I did the same thing, I eat a sweep. So I think it’s safe to assume that his jab dp can be a decent poke to make up for his slower fireballs.

3

interesting. i think Ken’s dp has a larger hit box overall than Ryu’s, and by that i mean the jab one. i know i’ve tried to hit things with Ryu’s and whiff, and it feels like when i’m in the same situation with Ken, i connect. i never paid much attention to the distance on the moves but i feel like the first hit frame of the jab dp has more range for Ken.

also worth noting is that the SFAC guide talks about Ken’s ability to fireball trap because of slower fireballs…
anyway, if anyone is well versed in the Super and ST incarnations, please contribute

4

H0C is right about Ken’s jab DP being faster than Ryu’s. It’s still not really safe for poking tho. It does make his random DP game better, since some ppl still try to punish a whiffed Ken jab DP only to get hit by the next one.

SSF2 and ST Old Ken are very similar characters. ST Old Ken is a really good fireball trapping character. He’s got a really slow jab fireball and a really fast fierce fireball. You can do stuff like throw a jab fireball from afar so they block it, then low arc hurricane to quickly travel forward to get close and keep the pressure on.

Few other things:

-Old Ken’s fireballs release and recover faster.
-SSF2 and Old Ken use jump RH for crossup.

ST Ken is just really different. He plays a more mid-range and in-close game relying less on fireball traps and more on footsies, fakes, grab and super setups. Some new Ken stuff:

-ST Ken walks slower than Old/SSF2 Ken.
-Special kicks are really useful. They build meter, are really fast (good for baitouts and fakes), really good in combos. HCF+K can even pass thru certain attacks. I’ve seen it go through a reversal DP on wakeup.
-jump forward is his crossup.
-kara super. LEARN THIS. It makes ST Ken much more deadly up-close. hit low shortx2 and if the low shorts connect, kara-cancel the 3rd low short into the super DP. It goes like this:

low short, low short, QCF, D, DF+short+jab

-knee grab. with forward kick. If you want to learn ST Ken you should learn how to use the grab and the setups that can follow it. WHat’s also good is that if they try to jump out of the knee grab, chances are you’ll get the close forward which is a 1-hit axe kick that can hit jumpers iirc.
-some things you can do after a knee grab:

walk toward them as they flip out, low shortx2 to super
walk behind them as they flip out, low shortx2 to super
hold up/toward as you grab them. keep holding up/toward as the throw ends. You’ll jump forward as they flip out. This lets you setup stuff like jump jabxxair hurricane, which will make them block which lets you either grab them again, or set up low short to super.

5

Just curious… I’m not an O.ken player, but I have seen the crazyness that is his near-instant recovery DP. Is it exactly the same in SSF2?

I haven’t tested this specifically in AE, but it shouldn’t work. I’m being a bitch here, but you have to fully go to towards (qcf x2, lk~P). Nitpicking, yes i know… but the reason it works is because you’re kara-cancelling a standing short into super. Since you have more than 1 hit in a rapid fire weak attack sequence, d.LK becomes uncancellable, kara or not.

PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong here, maybe it was changed for AE. Either way, listen to what dogberry says… because if you’re comp hasn’t seen a ticking/throwing/shorts into supering Ken before, they’re gonna get rocked. :slight_smile:

BTW: the ol’ brady book calls these “renda” cancels. Where did that name come from, and how come I’ve never heard it before? :slight_smile:

Another thing I was wondering… is it just me, or are instant-air hurricanes different in AE? (tiger-knee hurricanes). I seem to remember being able to do HF Ken’s hurricane much lower to the ground… but I haven’t played HF in a dogs age, so maybe I’m wrong.

6

Drunken Master: It will work for either low short or stand short. It works for low short because it’s a kara cancel, so that rule about not being able to normally cancel off a rapid fire attack sequence doesn’t apply since the 3rd low short doesn’t actually hit.

Also, Ken’s super motion is actually QCF,d,df+P. You don’t have to hit the full QCFx2 motion for the super to come out.

Not sure about SSF2 Ken’s DP and instant air-hurricanes in AE. I should get to play AE sometime today so I’ll check just for knowledge’s sake and let you know.

7

So it’s different in AE? Interesting… I know the motion ends at DF, but you simply cannot kara the low short in DC ST, and I assumed it was because of the RFWA rules.

Just for completeness sake you could try this with Bison… s.LPx2, kara s.LP into scissors or super. Or any standing LPs into standing charge move, with any character, for that matter. If these work, then AE is different than DC ST.

Forgive me if I’m skeptical, but I’ve always thought the key was that you need to change stances (ducking to standing and vice versa). I mean, it’s even the reason why CPS1 chain works.

I made a thread about it over a year ago looking for input, but never got any replies… http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29538 but the next time I get a hold of AE I will definitely check it out.

8

Well, with Ken I’ve done low shortx2 to super many times in DC ST using the method I described. It’s always worked fine for me. So I don’t think there’s a difference between the ST engine and the AE engine.

The whole reason for using kara cancels in the first place is so you can by-pass that rapid-fire attack restriction. With normal cancelling you’d have to switch from stand to crouch or vice versa, but with kara-cancelling there shouldn’t be a need to.

With Ken and Ryu you can also try low shortx2 to DP. It’s their kara-shoryuken combo. Again you’re kara-cancelling the low short into a special.

EDIT:

Since you mentioned CPS1 chains I went and looked at NKI’s CPS1 chain guide. CPS1 chains are different from kara-cancels in ST because you have to kara-cancel off a standing attack in CPS1 chains (so you’d need to do like 2 low shorts then stand short+fierce for cps1 chain). In ST, however, kara combos will work even off of repeated crouching attacks without having to go into standing attacks. Hope this clears things up.

Oh another thing. HF instant air-hurricanes can be done pretty low to the ground. I played against an HF Ken who accidentally did a tiger knee hurricane backwards. He hovered pretty low off the ground.

And SSF2 Ken’s DP seems to be the same as ST Old Ken’s.

9

Ok, I know you believe what you’re saying… but I was playing lots of AE today, and I can’t help but say that I disagree.

Perhaps I’m screwing up? I suppose it is possible, but really, I don’t think so. I tried the ken thing a TON of times, as well as the other examples mentioned. I too, have done it hundreds of times and for ages, but it just doesn’t work, without switching from standing to ducking or vice versa. I have done the shoryuken combo, I have kara’d most EVERY special in the game, looking for combos… and this rule seems to always apply.

Have you tried the bison example? Or the other ones? My utter failure without changing stances, and my complete success when changing stances leads me to believe otherwise.

About the CPS1 thing… have you ever wondered why you have to switch stances? I really don’t know… but I can only deduce that it stems from the rapidfire weak attacks rules.

10

Dogberry is right about the notation.

cr. :lk: , cr. :lk:, :qcf: :d: :df: + :lk: + :lp: definitely works for Ken. I just tried it last night, not to mention that I’ve never played ST Ken nor used this combo before. The timing is very tricky, so far I could do it 3/10 of the time. It also works for Ryu, but using 2 :qcf:'s instead. Ryu’s version is much harder to connect, and has a stricter timing. I’m assuming that it’s because his super fireball comes out slower than Ken’s super srk.

11

With regards to the CPS1 chain, you have to switch stances probably because unlike most kara-combos, it involves cancelling one normal attack into another normal attack. CPS1 chains are pretty unique. You can only cancel off of shorts and you can only cancel into punches. Other kinds of kara-cancels aren’t this restrictive.

I remember lftrpllr saying awhile back that it’ll work with either crouch short or stand short, the kara super combo. So we’re probably both right.

If I can find a ps2 stick I’ll try all this stuff on AE and let you know how it turns out. It just occured to me that I have yet to try all those advanced combos on AE. LOL.

12

H0C: Perhaps the timing is tricky because it only works when you accidentally went to towards or returned the stick to nuetral when you hit LK+LP, resulting in a s.LK? :slight_smile:

I almost never, 99% of the time, screw it up when I go to towards and hit LK~LP. It’s not tricky at all, it’s incredibly easy! But if I try to end at DF, my rate of success dramatically drops to absolute 0%. It NEVER works for me, I always get a 3rd d.LK. It’s not tricky here either, it’s actually impossible for me! I have NEVER gotten that method to work, in the hundreds of times over a year of play.

So I hope you guys can understand why I’m so firm on my opinion. If it turns out I’m wrong, and I’m missing something, I will wear “HUGE FUCKING IDIOT” in my sig for a year. :slight_smile:

Until then, maybe there have other examples I can try? Or perhaps you can suggest something I’m doing wrong?

Here’s another example… map all 3 kicks (KKK) to a button. Prefferably LK. Now pick Gief. Now attempt to do d.LP x2, then kara-cancel a 3rd d.LP into KKK lariat. The joystick commands for this is incredibly simple, with no motions at all.

Simply hold down on joystick, d.LP, d.LP, d.LP~LK.

As easy as this sounds, I have NEVER gotten it to work. All I get is a 3rd d.LP. Yet when I return the stick to nuetral for the LP~LK, it always works for me.

13

Drunken master, reda kara cancel has always worked in SF2 games. You can do crouching short x2 XX DP as far back as WW. It works on arcade ST, DC ST, SF Collection ST, and I’d assume 3DO ST as well. Ken’s c short x2 into super is very easy, I’m not sure why you’re having such a hard time. You can do the shorts slowly, and it’s easier to hit short~jab than to hit them simultaneously. As for the other examples you asked about, it is certainly possible to do c jab x 2 into Knee Press (or Knee Press Knightmare for that matter) on DC ST; I just did it several times. I haven’t gotten it to work doing standing jabs, but I’ve seen TZW do like 6 standing jabs into super with Cammy on arcade ST, so it should be possible. If you have MAME or Kawaks or something, I can do a replay to show you…

14

Drunken Master-

You’re right. I got it to work with the stick on neutral. It’s much easier to do now. My success rate is currently 8/10. The notation that I use is this-

cr. :lk: , cr. :lk: , :qcf: :d: :df: , N + :lk: + :lp:

Ryu’s shortshortsuper is still harder to combo. I guess that’s why nobody does his in a real match.

15

just out of curiousity, what would you guys say would be the best version of ken?

HF? SSF2?

16

yes I know.

Yes, it is very simple! If i follow the apparent changing stances rule You should read all of the posts in this thread, because it seems like you’re missing the whole point of this discussion.

Yay! You’re agreeing with me! :slight_smile:

I provided those examples as possible evidence, and you have come up with the same results. It is easy, when you change stances. For d.jabs into scissors/super, you’re kara-cancelling a STANDING jab into the special. A change of stances. But when you DON’T change stances (s.jabs into scissors/super) you can’t get it to work.

I never said comboing standing jabs into super was impossible. This isn’t about combos really, as my examples and discussion are simply about the act of cancelling, and the apperent rules that come with RFWAs mixed with kara-cancelling.

My beef is that doing standing jabs, then kara-cancelling ANOTHER standing jab into super is impossible… and vice versa with ducking RFWAs.

There is a simple workaround though, just follow the apparent rule and switch stances for the kara’d normal. I can only assume TZW did this and kara’d a d.LP into the super.

Rog is good example of this: d.jabs into kara’d s.jab into HP rush punch is CAKE. easy.

However, s.jabs into kara’d s.jab into HP rush punch is NOT easy. Think about it… WHY? shouldn’t this one be much easier???

But if you incorporate a kara’d d.jab, instead of the kara’d s.jab, it becomes easy again! Here’s one way you can do it:
Charge :l:, :lp: x2, roll :l::db::d::df:+:lp:, :r:+:hp: all in one motion. Kinda like a RC from CvS2.

Another opposite Rog example is with the rushing low uppercut. (df+K) Doing this off of s.jabs is easy! It’s because I’m kara cancelling a d.jab into the special. However, If I try d.jabs into kara’d d.jab into rushing low uppercut, it’s impossible. But going from low jabs into kara’d s.jab into NORMAL rush uppercut is easy!

There’s just soooo much evidence towards the rule, and I can’t find ANY towards the contrary. The only thing I can find is that sometimes, and I mean very rarely… the rule is broken. But this could be attributed to accidentally getting the workaround solution and in fact, following the original rule without knowing it.

When I get a hold of an arcade stick again in a couple days, I will disconnect the :d: switch on the joystick. Now, if I can perform s.jabs, into kara’d s.jab into HP rush punch with rog, or scissors with bison, or boom with guile, etc. then I will know that I am wrong.

NOTE: i apologize to pheonix fury for hijacking this thread with all this geek speak… I will start a new thread shortly.

17

Ken’s super is just fireball, down, down/toward where as Ryu’s is actually 2 fireball motions. Not only that but ryu’s super also has much more startup than Ken’s. Ken’s is so fast that you can actually just do:

Low Short, Low Short, super - you don’t even need any tricks (although they do help) or

Low Strong, super - again no trick needed, just link it.

But to get back on topic here, I think HF ken is the best version of Ken in AE. Walk up low short, standing fierce, jab dp is a poke from hell that leaves you relatively safe from over half the cast. Plus you get fun air hurricane kick combos and getaways when needed.

Derek.

18

I read somewhere that CE Ken is better than HF Ken. I dunno why exactly, but is it because he does more damage? I’m pretty sure that CPS1 combo works with him too. I also read that his dizzy/redizzy potential is insane. I dunno, correct me if I’m wrong.

19

hey H0C, i heard the same thing as you, and that’s one thing i was really starting this thread for. i would think that HF Ken would be better, but i just physically do better with CE Ken. it makes no sense to me, since HF Ken seems like CE Ken + air hurricane, and never have i seen simply adding a move make someone worse… does anyone know if their priorities or hit boxes changed? i know that i get insane dp range with CE Ken, dunno if that was toned down for HF Ken or no.

20

I’m also really curious to know if HF Ken is any different from CE Ken (other than the air hurricane kick)…