How to tell if your Blackheart sucks

Well, I honestly never use any of the Dark Thunder specials. I think in my 5 year expieriance with BH, it only came out like twice and those were accidental. I just really don’t see any real use for it. It has horrible recovery, and is very punnishable if you miss the cancel.

Like I have said before, BH against Storm is just an all around bad match up. Bh doesn’t have anything to beat out her cr.lk. If it does happen that my BH playes against her because of circumstances in the match that lead to this confrontation, in the air next to her I don’t do anything but block. Bh has no chance against her in the air. Normally I will just try to safely chip her with infernoxxxHod. Storm seems to eat more chip from this then most characters. However as usual beware of guard cancels.

I do have a lot of exp with Bh and Cable together. Along with Cyke, this used to be my team for a long time. I just really don’t think BH benefits from Cable. Since BH needs meter to survive, I just think Cable becomes obsolete in a certain way. The only way I can see this team working against good players is if you start Cable first. For this to work, imo you have to have a really good solid Cable.

As far as countering team Scrub, I don’t have too much exp with this team against scrub. I guess the trick is to watch out for commando and try to punnish him every chance you get. Without capcom, I don’t see cable being a significant threat. Maybe Stilt has a better knowledge of this match up than I do.

Hope this helps.

Did you get a chance to land the guard break? I’ve been practicing it and i’m starting to really get the timing now. It’s hella damaging.

I got that guard break to work 4 out of the 10 matches I played today. It’s better than the 1 out of 30 from yesterday, I’ll tell you this much. It does get easier the more you do it.

I’ll tell you the problem and why I asked this with Storm. My friend and I had a lot of MSP vs Watts matches yesterday. In all of the matches, I was able to dispatch his Magneto very easily. When he rushed with Storm, I could dispatch that as well. I ran into trouble though when he ran like a mother. I still won the matches, but I found myself mid match having to tag in Sent while Storm is in the air. I’d rather get big damage on her before I go to Sent, but I knew that wasn’t possible when she was running.

I want to learn dt xx HOD, for big characters when I hit them with Cap. I have big trouble canceling the Inferno on bigs, as it seems to be way faster, or not possible at all off of him.

But thanks for the insight and the guard break. It could make BH even more deady.

Dark thunder/HOD pretty much is, poke into Commando, and throw dark thunder a bit faster than you’d throw the inferno. It is pretty dicey timing, and if I don’t have it practiced I often find myself doing it at similar timing to the inferno, which is wrong. But yeah, you pretty much have to use dark thunder on Juggernaut and Sentinel, because inferno doesn’t work off of Commando. Inferno works off of Cyclops, Cammy, Guile, and Mega Man-AAA, but not Commando anywhere other than the corner.

Watts versus Scrub is, needless to say, a very interesting matchup. I have heard that Valle used to start Sentinel on Sentinel and then tried to exploit the fact that he had BH/Commando and the other Sentinel only had Commando. I can see some merit in this, but I personally would prefer to start BH on either one of them. BH, interestingly enough, has to play a very similar game plan to be most effective on both Sentinel and Cable. If Sentinel starts and is silly enough to blind rush BH, then this pretty much plays into your hands. It’s the people who play Sentinel conservatively and carefully that are the biggest pains. The way you approach a defensive Sentinel is largely the same as the way you approach a runaway Cable: normal jumps forward, call enough drones to keep him honest in the horizontal game (as long as they don’t have the meter to mangle him too badly), and generally try to zone him off into the corner and then attack him fairly relentlessly from all the angles once you get him there.

How you manage your meter is a lot of this matchup, and it depends on whether you consider their Sentinel or their Cable to be the most dangerous point char to deal with. If they start Cable, then your mission is to get Cable dead by any means necessary. Whether that’s by hitting him with a DHC with BH, or hot tagging Sentinel over a badly placed st. fierce and hit him with a RP into HSF, or whatever… KILL CABLE. Zone him off into a corner relentlessly and make him dead. You don’t care if you wind up getting hurt in the process or get both BH and Sentinel roughed up a bit doing this, because if you can get his Sentinel on point with his Cable dead and you’re free to trap without worrying about a counter-AHVB, you win this match. Sent/Commando by itself has no business beating Sent/BH/Commando if it’s played carefully.

If they start Sentinel, I’ll usually start BH regardless, although this is a situation where starting Sentinel is tempting to do. I personally don’t tend to do it because I’m happier putting BH on Cable than Sentinel if they choose to start Cable, and you never know what some Scrub players will do. In this case, there’s a lot of different options if you get Sentinel hit with something.

If you can get the dark thunder/HOD timing to work, this is a DHC that is very consistent on Sentinel and does quite a lot of damage. BH/Sentinel will DHC that on another Sentinel very, very consistently, there’s virtually no timing at all on it after you get the dark thunder to combo off of Commando right. (Of course, that’s usually the rub.)

If they’re starting Sentinel with Cable in the middle, you can snap in Commando if you get a hit on Sentinel with BH. This is very effective if you’ve hurt Commando on countercalls a lot, and it’s also a pretty much universal way to flat out ruin Team Scrub in any matchup. It’s best to do this if you’ve got enough meter to put up a serious threat to DHC Cable if he just cold tags immediately, but even if you don’t, just screwing up the team order is still a serious blow to Team Scrub. There will come a point where they know they’re flirting with disaster with Commando in the middle if they tag Cable in. Watts is obviously not the first characters you have in mind when you’re thinking that you’ll kill Commando immediately, but this is more to simply exploit the fact that Cable can’t safely DHC in and that they’re running up against a mess whether they tag him, counter him, or just try to pray they can get away with cold tagging back to Sentinel. I believe my last tournament matchup I played against Jackson Chen was won this way, by snapping his Sentinel out for Commando.

Yeah, MSP against Watts is actually a pretty bad matchup for MSP if you play it right.

Thanks for the help with the DT xxx HOD tip. I’ll practice it.

The Scrub synopsis was really well put. I knew some of how it is played, but I didn’t know how to play it completely. I didn’t know about snapping in Commando in this match would help, I will try it out though and see what happens.

Does the Santhrax matchup kind of follow the same suit as well? This seems to be a very tough matchup for me. It’s one of the times that I do start Sent for sure. Are there any other teams that a Watts user would consider starting Sent for?

But then it’s weird because I start BH agaist Storm/Sent/Cyke, but not Santhrax…fear commando.

One more thing, is there any way to make good of a double snap? I assume it would have to be corner only stuff, but I am curious.

sorry I took so long to get to y’all on all the topics…

1st, that guard break is kinda old actually and very inconsistent. It works on the computer b/c the computer has a habit of just not blocking any attack after the RH until it hits the ground. So it will look like you GBd the computer when you really didn’t. However, there is a similar GB (in the corner) that I like to do that is just as affective (I’m pretty sure I’ve said this b4). After killing a character (best done with them flying through the air as they die from like a JD super) you immediately sj when the dead character hits the ground and throw RH so that it is guarded just as the opponent is entering the screen. You should be moving forward when you throw the RH whether it be just from SJing forward or dashing after the RH so that you land as close to the corner as possible. You then pause and lk, mp as the GBd character falls to the height where the tail can connect. They’ll come out of block stun just in time to tail, launch them. From here the options are obvious I hope. On another note, if you use characters like mag and storm and are familiar with the SJxxadRH that’s commonly used, you can do that after snapping an enemy in the corner that’ll put them in the same position as stated above. This was the new method of GBing a person that I spoke of, but didn’t feeling like explaining in great detail.

2nd, how to deal with storm…I got a strategy that I think you’ll all love cuz it involves a cross up into the infinite set up. But I’ll have to put this when I get home so just practice the 1st part of this post :slight_smile:

Any team that can get a feasible snapback on Sentinel can mess up Team Scrub. Even if they don’t actually kill Commando, just hurting him, taking away any red bar they managed to put on him, and forcing them into a situation where you throw the team order off and you’ve got Cable in there with an unsafe DHC is a good thing.

In the case of BH, if you hit a flying Sentinel with demons (which is going to be the most common case) then you can simply land next to him and snap him out before he stops bouncing. BH’s snapback looks like it’s a very low, sweep like punch but it actually has a fair amount of vertical reach, enough that you don’t have to sweat letting them actually land and settle in order to snap them.

okay now for the second point…

2nd, if you’re playing storm with your BH and you don’t want to switch in sentinel for whatever reason you may have you can use this gameplay to make them rethink a lot of the stuff they might do with her. First, for the storm that’s so careless that they just super jump while throwing FPs and dashing up, you’d throw random infernos. If they’re smart enough to not just go to the air swinging blindly you can use your commando assist (assuming you have it) here’s the key to using it though. You wait til you have they’re right above you, and just over a SJ distance above your head b4 you call capcom. as soon as you call capcom SJ with a stalled rh demons so that the blocking storm is going to fall into the RH and (here’s the trick) dash right over the head of the storm right b4 storm hits the RH to cross her up. what follow is your choice. Also take note that you can do shortened air dashes instead of the full air dash if the opponent gets wise to what you’re trying.

3rd, thank you Stilt for bring up the snap block. I happen to love snapping in commando when fighting a sentinel lead team scrub so that there’s no safe way to bring cable in. Everything Stilt says applies from there on and if you were playing against sent right, their capcom should’ve been safely getting punished by yours every time they called him so that he comes in damaged.

As far as I’m concerned, a patient blackheart/commando wins against even a patient sent/commando for the simple reason that none of his close range attacks hit you through your FP. this means that you should be building bar quite fast which means the chip that sentinel is doing can be countered with your own from the far more chipping supers. The details on how to fight sent is really just based on zoning so if there’s any problems in particular anyone is having, state them and i’ll tell you the best way to fight back.

On another note, when playing a cable that’s on point I say USE YOUR GROUND DASH! In any other situation this move is useless, BUT when you have a cable that’s safely SJ back (not shooting til they know they won’t get hit by infernos) while calling drones or capcom, you can surprise them by dashing under everything which allows you to punish the assist and possibly more.

I can’t believe I’ve giving away all my tricks like this (I wanted to actually get this captured on video to show people first) but there’s a very affective way of keeping in a commando assist without fear of retaliation from cable.
whenever you counter a commando assist with your own, SJ with rh (as long as cable isn’t already there or on his way up there) so that they hit the recently hit commando assist as it’s coming down. At this point you should be very close to the assist and able to d.jp or d.lk it on the way down from the SJ. Most cables will do one of three things when you’re coming down on them and they’re wihout an assist.

  1. They’ll try to SJ and punish you as you’re punishing their assist, usually with a super in which case you just guard as you’re looking for this retaliation the whole time. (they waste bar which makes cable less of a threat)
  2. They’ll try to dash under you to create space and stop you from attacking their assist, but if you learn to use the dash while close to the assist you can make sure to end up with the assist still between you and cable and you landing first. From here you can launch the assist and immediately cancel to a backwards SJ (this give you instant block even if they ahvb you in which case they waste a bar which is always good) and if they don’t catch on to the fact that you can keep the assist in by repeating this method their assist will be kill.
  3. they’ll try to cross you up into a combo. very rarely will a cable neglect the fact that thei assist is getting punished to cross you up. since cable’s dash is much slower than someone like storm or magneto, this should be easy to see coming since the height that you’re d.JPing or d.LKing keeps cable still visible on the screen. Note that you can resend commando whenever you are back on the ground to increase damage.

One last thing for playing against team scrumb. if ever you get cable in the corner and you manage to nail the assist and cable at the same time, or nail the assist while cable is off the ground (usually by dashing under anything they throw at you while SJing…follow up with an inferno to armageddon. to me this seems like common sense to me, but most people tend to follow up with HOD or JD from what I’ve seen. The reasons for using armageddon is this…

  1. If you hit cable and the assist the armageddon will do massive damage (obiviously) and leave them with a completely unprotectable assist. from here you’d recall capcom and SJ.jp the cable to keep him blocking and punish the assist. immediately follow the SJ.jp with SJ.rh so that you hitt the assist and from there you can dash and use the assist infinite that I stated above.
  2. you can repeat the armageddons chain and cable will still be stuck in the air blocking while capcom receives what is usually the killing blow (only do this if you know the cable isn’t going to be able to cut it short with an attack)
  3. if you don’t have anymore bars and the cable is a defensive one, you can use a generic from of rush down by SJxxd.jp (to make them guard til they hit the ground) and you’ll be landing right above their head so that you can either hit them high at the last minute, or pause and hit them with cr.lk, lk + capcom inferno. If timed right, even if they guard all of it, the assist should be getting hit by the cr.lk, lk + capcom (while standing on the ground) b4 it can get off the screen and as long as you don’t do this pattern blindly (don’t do the inferno if they guard the high/low opportunity) you can repeat the assist chain.

That’s about it for the most part. Just pay attention to what the opponent is doing with their cable if you manage to get their capcom with your own in the situation I mentioned. This process once mastered basically forces the cable to waste a bar (any other former of protecting the assist puts them in danger of getting caught in the infinite set up) or trying to cross you up (which keeps them right next to you which is where you want them)

The easiest way to practice this form of assist punishment is to do one of two things in training mode…

  1. put the cable in the corner and call the capcom, then proceed to go through what I mentioned to keep the assist in.
  2. play the cable right in the middle of the screen and call capcom. then proceed to sj over cable to hit the assist with RH and dash to the other side of the assist.

If I have the time I’ll try to record this and put it on youtube or something like that.
And if you have any question about any of what I just said, message me on here and I’ll get back to you when I can

Great strats BHking, I never thought of using armageddon. I do know that if you gaurd break in the corner, and the infernoxxarmg. it’s massive damage, with little to no worry about retaiation, but I have always considered it unsafe to use armg. a lot, especially when playing cable.

Also, using BH’s dash us effective, but can get you murdered if not used right, so make sure cable can’t rertaliate to quickly when you go to dash, recovery time is not to fast (unless you are the computer, in which case its instant lol) and you can get tagged with AHVB. A good tactic I learned from a friend to use is when you are in danger with BH vs. Cable and you need a safe DHC, when you are up in the air, and he throws a nade, pushblock and immediatly do air judgment, and then cancel into HSF fast, the will leave cable in block stun from the demons long enough to get sent in safley. Air Judgment is often underestemated, but can be very effective against a ill placed HSF or AHVB, with very safe DHC options.

Random simple DHC w/tron: (in the corner) c.lk, c.lk+tron, TigerKnee into air judgment xx HSF, bnb/unfly combo, into whatever you want. Simple but very damaging sequence.

Just as a heads up, I believe they recorded about four of my matches at yesterday’s Fairfield tournament, all of them involving Sent/BH teams. One was a first round match against Larry S (yes, a rematch from the last tournament) where I went to Sent/BH/Cyclops because he went to Clockwork in the first game. Two were against Crizzle – one where I went 2-0 with Watts against his MSP in the winners’ bracket, and the other was in the losers’ finals where he started with Spiral/Cable/Sentinel against Watts because he gave up on trying to beat it with MSP after the first match, which I managed to lose before I unwisely gave into the temptation to mirror match the Spiral/Cable/Sentinel, won that one, then he went back to MSP and beat my Spiral team and I wasn’t able to make good on going back to Watts. The other was winners’ finals against Chunk, where I basically got torn up in various degrees of ugliness. The second game was weird, his Storm should have died in a HSF and inexplicably just drops out of getting hit with the upper row of drones, and his Sentinel would have come in next in very bad shape with a fairly wounded Mags in back. Both Chunk and I were not sure what happened there, but it wound up being fairly game changing.

Chunk is wayyyy too good, post vids asap plz. :slight_smile:

The guy who took the video ought to be posting them, at least I hope he will.

posting them where?

On youtube usually.

edit Stilt you use Spiral/Cable/Sent? Is that a guilty pleasure team?

I know sometimes I use Row as a guilty pleasure team for me.

Yeah, I play Spiral. Well enough that Duc has been trying to lobby me to adopt her as one of my mainstay characters since he saw me using her at B5. But my BH is way better than my Spiral. The last time I used Spiral in a tournament before I gave into the unwise urge to mirror match against Crizzle’s Spiral/Cable/Sentinel was somewhere around 2004, when I used that team against Rairu in a Seattle tournament because I (correctly) suspected that it would completely throw him for a loop to have to fight against Spiral.

But yeah, I’m at least semi-competent with most of the good characters except Magneto.

stilt.

how could i get around bh’s ground assist? this dude i play uses that sometimes, and i’m always running into it… what works against that?

Well, you’d probably want to think of it as being similar to Mag-A, except that if it hits you it’s going to knock you across full screen. It also is probably going to break super armor, although I’m not sure, so stuff like Doom’s rocks and Sentinel’s drones might get stopped by it.

Aside from that, I would tend to say that it’s not going to be that much different from Mag-A in terms of what to do about it. Horizontal assist. I’d actually tend to consider it a waste of BH’s assist potential; the inferno column’s ability to act like a tracking Commando is so good for controlling the vertical space of the arena and there’s so many other ways to do the horizontal part with almost anything else that I’d consider the dark thunder assist to b e a waste.

thank you sir.

3 questions. [I hate asking questions as it’s kinda embarassing…]

1 What’s the best team for taking down Mags-a, Cable-b, Sent-a whether you’re using BH or not
2 What’s the best BH based team for taking down the aforementioned team?
3 What’s the best method of implementing BH against that team?

who does this guy use with that blackheart assist and who do you play with? with the exception of very few matchups, that assist should never get the chance to activate.

as for deathfist’s question. when you have BH against mag, you don’t want to try to counter sent-a with sent-a. you want to have sent-y cuz it’ll not only stop mag from getting close when done with j.fp but it’ll stop the sent-a assist outright b4 it can ever hit you or the assist (as long as you don’t call your sent-y right as or right after your opponent calls sent-a)

b/c of what I started above, the most logical bh team to use is team watts. as for the strategy to implement…first make space (how you do it really depends on you at the start of the match). once you have the space, proceed to j.fp and sent-y. an impatient mag probably won’t be able to get through this, however, if they don’t blindly run into all the stuff that you have on the screen, you just change up the pattern. also, surprisingly enough, jump back with rh and jump straight up with rh is damn affective against the mags the try to get to you on the ground. as long as you have them at 3/4 to full screen they’ll run right into the rh at which point you can go on the offensive. if they do a jxxad the j.fp should be there to keep them at bay. if they sjxxad and the j.fp isn’t out, it usually means you’re back on the ground, in which case I’d either send out commando (if you can call an assist) or use the ground dash that others think is so useless to end up on the complete opposite side of the screen from the mag. chances are the first time you do this, the person won’t even know what happened, and if you can call the sent-y assist right b4 you dash, they’ll probablly get crossed up by the drones. last but not least is the idea of meeting mag in the air with sj.jp and whatever you choose to follow with. if you’re confident in you ability to interrupt anything mag is trying, go for it. you’ll either damage him or make them block at which point you can put the pressure on them. if they sj while you’re on the ground you could even try to sj right with them and toss a RH for them to dash into, at which point some serious damage should be coming their way. for the most part, the mag (useless you’re playing against a yipes/soo/row type of mag) should be outclassed as long as they have those assist and you have commando and sent-y. the one thing you don’t want to do is get into a habit of calling commango unless it’s definitely going to punish them or their assist. I have a feeling you might tend to call commando unnecessarily only to have your opponent call sent-a to pound a defenseless commando though…am I right?

thanks.

i use only low tiers against him, cuz he ain’t that good.
i use spiderman / bbhood / doom

he uses

wolverine / blackheart / commando.

if i used a top tier team he doesn’t have time to breathe, so to keep it fair, i run my spiderman.