How to tell if your Blackheart sucks

Classic Fighting Games Marvel VS Capcom 2
201

man school can be a pain in the ass! anyways just checking up on this thread since it’s been forever since I last posted here.

was looking to see if there were any new discoveries and whatnot…

since I last posted, I’ve created (at least I think I have since I’ve never seen anyone else do it) a cross up on incoming characters involving the RH demons and a guardbreak on incoming characters that’s almost foolproof. it’s a bitch to explain though. so I’ll try to catch it on vid and send it to zachd or something.

202

Just explain the guardbreak, it can’t be that difficult to understand. I haven’t found one yet.

203

the one I came up with is a pain in the ass to explain if it’s going to be understood, so you can just wait for the video if I ever make it…

there’s a second guard break (done solo) I use that’s easier to explain so I’ll tell you that one…

on incoming character (corner)

  1. jump straight up so that you’re at your peak right as opponents character is coming in and jp right as you start to descend from your jump.
  2. when you hit the ground and the character is at the appropriate height lk (this should be unblockable)
  3. follow up with jp (launcher) into whatever you want…

this is obviously for use against someone that you know will come in guarding

204

Okay, so I went to a tournament using watts and got raped bad. So bad that I questioned using blackheart at all. Most of the teams used were magneto based too, so the problem was probably me. I guess I shouldn’t be too down, one of the people beasting was m1x4h, or mixup from tally. Is that his name? Well, he was damn good.

A question: How do you defend against a very good magneto?

The simple j.hp + drones just doesn’t cut it with a high level player. It was like as soon as I got knocked down it was over, b/c he’d constantly keep me confused as to where he was attacking from w/crazy resets and infinites.

Another team that seems to give BH teams a problem is S/D.

If anyone can help me out with those matchups, it’ll be appreciated.

205

First, I’m gonna disclaim this by saying that I know mixup is good and from what I’ve read, m1x4h is good too.

“Good” Magneto players, as compared to Magneto players that can actually play the game, are always going to be a problem if you’re Blackheart. There’s no way around it. You simply cannot zone Magneto out for 100% of the match; he has too many options, too many ways in. You’re forced to guess in a lot of situations, and intermediate players usually either have no mind about it and pick randomly, or do the same one over and over again, which to defense is the same problem: they are not responding to the situation, only to their own feelings.

The closest thing to a sure solution is to:

  1. only engage Magneto after you’ve isolated him from his assist,
  2. don’t call your assists until you’ve fulfilled the #1 condition as well, and
  3. always attack from the regular jump space.

It’s not total runaway; you are allowed to attack Magneto, you just have to wait until he can’t kill your offense and watch for an infinite setup at the same time (something which is normally very difficult, but easy for a Magneto player who has the luxury of defending with his assist). This is the best advice I can give you.

As for Strider/Doom, the only plan that has a shot of working is to superjump a lot, drop demons, and save your airdash for until you see Strider teleport.

206

hmmmm…there hasnt been a post here in a while. So my question has to do with what to do when blackheart is the last char. what the fuck do i do? ive been rushing down with blackheart, trying for c. mp xx sj cancel air combo cross ups. his chip game is insignificant without an assist as well as not safe, i dont think. plus if im behind i cant have them running the time away, so any suggestions against common last chars?

207

I’ve been wondering how Strider/Doom/BH or something like that would work.

I thought BH/Strider/Doom would be a nice team, but Dasrik says it just don’t work, how so?

208

Your only hope is to catch your opponent in the air with roundhouse demons. As soon as you do that, hit the team super and you can keep doing it before they hit the ground for as meters as you have. You can also add an inferno after the the last super, and if it builds you up another meter add onother hod.

209

Well, BH/Strider/Doom isn’t the most awful of all teams, and it’s arguably better for when Strider’s on point because BH helps him control vertical space (which is not his friend otherwise) better than Sentinel does. The main problem is, BH has no way to inflict damage other than by chipping on this team, which is very bad. It basically means you can do nothing with him but stall and fill the meter for Strider. If you want BH and Doom together you’re better off putting Commando in back. If you want Strider and Doom you’re probably better off putting Sentinel in front or Commando in back there too.

With BH as the last character, I usually try to get the poking game going very carefully and be ultra-conservative in controlling space to avoid getting attacked. It’s a tough fight, but sometimes you can zone out and hit a random inferno/HOD after they’re trying to stay away from sj. fierce. By and large, though, no, it’s a really bad situation if BH is your last character and you’re behind. If you’re ahead, well hell, stall that shit down. BH doesn’t need an assist to do that.

210

I’ll throw inferno/HOD if I see Storm trying to go sky with vertical typhoons. I let them get away with that about once before they’re eating the next one.

Sentinel trying to play the “I’m going to fly around just outside your AAA range”? Throw the AAA anyway to cut the screen down and then inferno/HOD and see what happens to those blue jets.

Cable doing the “super jump and try to zone” stuff? Well, that’s usually an inferno/JD, because it’s about ninety times harder to shoot you for it if they don’t eat it.

Sometimes I’ll do it to other chars too just for giggles. But these are the main ones where I’ll throw them for some reason other than in a combo.

211

Hey, just another BH player looking for some strats. I got into the semi finals in Evo 2k5 with BH/Sent/AA, swept my whole bracket. They were no namers, but they certainly were not slackers. In the Semi’s I got assed out of my first match because of BS beyond my control, and my second match was against Potter, with a stick that was given to me randomly because mine dident want to work with the converter for some reason…not complaining, but that was a factor to my loss, aside from Evo pressure. Anywho, seem’s to me BH is getting a very baaaad name because of random scrubs who want to try to play him in serious tourney’s, I am not the greatest with blackheart, but I am a solid player. blah blah, anyways, I just want to get this thread alive again and see if anyone has any new strats for this evovled style of play we have to face with mags, storn, sent, and cable. If people start posting I will try to come up with some stuff to share as well. oh and great job on the thread Stilt’s, we need more like you, you to dasrik…and someone get Jaminis back in the game!
The End

212

Congrats on making semis first of all, lots of good players at Evo last year.

Second, check out the BH Combo thread, it seems that most of the discussion has moved there.

In that thread, you’ll find some vids of Stilt’s BH. If I’m right, and being that you played Potter at Evo, you must have faced his Scrub. You’ll find in Stilt’s match vs Mike R, how Watts vs. Scrub is supposed to go pretty much. Soon, you’ll find vids of my Watts and BH/Cable/Doom teams in there and stuff as soon as I find someone with a camcorder.

213

Hi I am going to post some secrets (or maybe not so secret secrets because I haven’t read every post in here). here’s my thoughts. btw I play at CF, so no, my competition isn’t retarded. I am slightly out of practice , but here goes:

  1. don’t know if this has been posted before, but people get lazy and don’t mash out of BH’s standing RH. What does that mean? That means, after you do INFERNO XX HOD in the corner, s. rh will do an extra touch of damage as you all know and capture the opponent. if your opponent is lazy/unknowledgeable, you can do j. short, j. forward, c. short, c. forward for an extra chunk of damage because you have to mash out and block to avoid this. It’s not technically part of the combo, but you also can’t call your assist during this time. Also, I find if an opponent flies in (lp+lk or mp+mk), s. rh, HOD does a nice chunk of damage. I don’t think that one is mashable (if it is, it requires tight timing). What else does this mean? You can land sj. rh, enemy will float down, launch using c. short, c. forward+cyclops, catch them with sj. rh again, wait for them to float down, (opponent gets lazy and doesn’t mash out), this UNCOMBOS, and do c. short, c. forward + cyclops, repeat. that’s probably not news, but I’m posting anyway just in case.

  2. BH/iron zangief-a is no joke. yes it sounds like a joke, but no, it’s not. I do have to give credit to Julian from philly (he used it a lot until I realized it’s not a joke team). BH/CABLE/gief-a is very scary if you’re even half competent. c. short + gief, c. forward xx inferno xx hod hurts a hell lot. you can even do c. short + gief, c. forward, s. rh timed so that the demons hit as gief is ending, then HOD.
    IRON GIEF IS UNSTOPPABLE and can’t be combo’d as an assist (so no stupid snapback combos on his ass). Cable/BH/iron gief is just nuts. come in on cable, you have mad crossup coverage (think psylocke’s dual-sided coverage but completely unstoppable). gief-a also sets up ahvbx3 very easily. stay back on cable and you have one of the most frustrating cable traps out there (cable+bh). I honestly think this is one of the best teams in the game (just wish I had more time to practice my cable or mvc2 in general). i could go into more details of this team (like how iron gief’s stupid near 50% combo of c. jab, c. strong, sj. jab, sj. short, sj. b+fierce, and then d+fierce on the way down is unstoppable) if anyone cares.

  3. bh’s main weaknesss (and this is what separates those that know how to fight against BH vs. those that don’t) IMO??? You know BH only has 1 airdash. that means you can predict where he will land. And when you know where someone will land, that’s a free crossup. In a matter of fact, I will say one of the key components in mastering MVC2 is knowing where your opponent will land for a free crossup. storm can float and lightning attack and air dash attack and fly… mag can air dash attack , fly, and is generally fast… sentinel can fly so he never has to land… there you have the makings of the top tier. hell, if captain america had a fast air dash he could attack out of, he’d be top tier, too (dash you can attack out of plus double jump would be too much). so if you want to destroy BH (and this is why blocking is so important as everyone says), just dash under his demons and wait for where he will land… free crossup! that’s how I notice I get wrecked when I used BH.

  4. BH’s best assists are cyclops,cc and gief (iron). I prefer iron gief and cyclops the most. CC is not as good for several reasons: he’s not invincible and the length of time he’s out is not conducive for a BH rush down. Cyclops and Gief come out for just the right amount of time to allow BH to attack and be in the air again while they finish attacking.

  5. j. short and j. jab are godsend. abuse the hell out of them, for they will save your ass when Mag is trying to triangle jump your ass.

I can go into any details of the above if anyone is even interested, but I do have a good understanding of BH.

214

Solid stuff there. Only thing is though:

Blackheart’s main weakness is Cable. Cable can zone seventibillion times more than Blackheart can. Also, Storm gives BH mad problems as well. BH’s airdash has it’s uses, but it seems that sometimes it is used in the wrong ways. Also, if people are dashing under rh demons, that is a sign that the BH user is not using them correctly, and/or throwing too many of them.

To me, you want to throw rh demons to: cover your assist(one set will do), anytime when you can bait them to dashing up to you(by doing jump back fierce), combos of course, or if you are up in the air and you seen them tag in.

Anywho, had to clear that up.

215

That’s interesting. I didn’t find cable to be as much of a problem as Mag or Storm (or even Sentinel), but it might be assist dependent.

What I find helps a lot is that you make sure your SJ’s are NOT synchronized with Cable’s. This will allow you to do sj. rh (and cancel to airdash to block if Cable decides to sj. up there) to try to maneuver your way in. Once you can get him to a corner… depending on his assist of course… you’ll have more leverage. If your opponent cable likes to SJ fierce right after a lock down, just wait a sec, then sj. rh after he’s attacked. As long as your SJ’s are not in sync, you are fairly safe to Cable’s sj. fierce xx HVB.

I find that sj. rh at full screen is usually quite safe, with the exception of crossups when you land and Sentinel (in which I’d do sj. fierce after the sj. rh, air dash).

I usually try to air dash from a sj. at the last moment before landing so that I’m not landing where I’m expected… but then that can be baited out, too (just like waiting for a mag/storm to air dash up before landing… then you call out your assist).

Cool thread anyway… glad to see more people picking BH up.

216

Most of the time, When I call Cap/Doom, I’ll sj. rh, and just airdash forward, and then after that, do absolutely nothing. Most usually, your assist will be covered, because about 55%-60% of the time because of them being crossed up. Also, if they superjump, you can just hit jab and hit them, since Blackheart’s jab is so prioritized, or you can just come down and block, and restart the normal jumping offense.

There’s also some vids of Stilt’s BH in the BH Combo Thread if you haven’t checked em out already.

217

I have to agree with both of you on some things. Cable is argueably BH’s worst enemy, and a huge weakness. Storm when palyed the right way, can be outright frustrating to play against. I always choose to play blacky against sentinel, because he is just a huge moving chip target for me, and with his love of flight mode, its easy to send him bouncing for free damage. Jaded, you are very right with the cross-ups, and THIS is exactly what makes Magz so difficult to play. A patient magz will wait fr the sj. rh demons, and then wait for you on the ground for a cross up party. This is why I try to stay close the the ground when playing magz, throwing j. fp demons, j. lp/lk and so on to keep him zoned…I try to only throw sj.rh demons to protect assists. I guess the best defense against being crossed up when you hit the ground is finding the cursor, and then choosing where to block…A lot of people think blackheart players need to learn how to block, but when thats what you do for 75% of the time, well, no one is perfect.

Strats:
Against Cable: NEVER use infernoxxHOD unless you are POSITIVE it cannot be retalieated. One safe thing to do is infernoxxjudgment instead, this is 100000 times more safe. What I like to try to do is predict cables super jumps, get up a little before, and reign down greenies while his pop’s his gun, this will send him bouncing, and its either infinite or judgment super from there. altought cable can control more space then backy, its not impossible to catch him. Also, when he stats the cap cap cap Sent drones Viper Beam* rinse and repeat, well…there is always the teleport :slight_smile: trust me…if you do it right, it works like a charm!

GaurdBreaker:
I dunno if anyone remembers this one, but someone posted it long ago. After you get a kill, if you are in the corner, you can j. lk, land, immediatly infernoxxarmageddon. This does massive damage in the corner.

Thats all i’ve got for now…tired today so forgive. hope this helps, it may be review /redundant for some, but its something. Glad to see the thread a alive again, and I hope to see some of you at Evo World!

218

I think CoosCoos made a great point about throwing BH’s rh demons. Depending on how high your opponent is you can reletively time when you want the demons to come out, and at the very least they will block them thus creating more space for you which is what you ultimately want. If you see them dashing under you to cross you up, just don’t throw them out and hold your airdash for when you’re coming closer to the ground. I’ve caught a lot of people in the rh demons(when they superjump after you) waiting for the last minute while your coming down they don’t block, leading to a very damaging combo.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that every BH player has trouble against a GOOD Cable. Jaded made a good point on timing your super jump so you don’t end up being at the same height as cable, but with well placed grenades it’s a very difficult task indeed.

Void: I never stay on the ground against Mags. A good mags will just tear you apart if you stay grounded. I’m constantly in the air moving at all times. Against Mags you have to run.

Storm is just a bad all around match up for BH. Avoid it.

Against Sent you have to be carefull. GOOD Sent players can fly around demons and pigs. They can annoy you with the frying pan and ultimately corner you which is where you don’t want to be. If Sent is on the ground, proceed with normal jump rushdown and pin them down. It’s very hard to retaliate against this. You don’t want Sent to start flying around.

These are just a couple of things I want to add on what was posted earlier

BTW we should take this discussion the the Blackheart combo thread to keep it to one thread.

219

Cable doesn’t bother me, even the good ones. It’s all about the mindset you take into the fight. And the thing that really frightens me is how I came to this blinding flash of insight on the matchup. It was only just this Sunday, in fact.

The players: rimrattler, Justin K, and myself. I’d been playing with Justin a bunch of times for giggles with various screwball teams until I finally decided I was tired of waiting through three or four other games because I wasn’t taking to the task of holding the machine seriously enough and wanted to be playing more and waiting less. So I picked BH/Sent/Commando the next time I stepped up. Beat rimrattler’s Sent/Storm/Colossus. Beat Justin’s oddball Gambit/Morrigan/Sonson. Beat a few other guys.

Then rimrattler comes up and beats me with Cable/Sentinel/Colossus, in that order. This is a guy who went two-and-out in the same Fairfield tourney where I got 5th and came within a really stupid meltdown against Mikey R of going to the winners’ bracket finals. So this made me a little mad at myself.

Then, as I’m waiting, a weird thing happens. Justin K comes up to the machine and tears him up with the same Gambit/Morrigan/Sonson team.

Okay. I’m writing this all off as a fluke. I pick BH/Sent/Commando again, wiped Justin out, then rimrattler comes back with Cable/Sent/Colossus again… and beats me again.

About now, I’m getting really kind of irritated at myself, and then to my complete aghastness, Justin K comes up and again tears him up with Gambit/Morrigan/Sonson.

This cycle didn’t go on much longer than that, but by the time I got back to the machine the arcade was about to close and so I didn’t get a third crack at it. And I spent that evening basically being irritated at myself that, on that particular night, Gambit/anything/anything-else was being more effective at breaking this guy’s Cable than my BH was. I’m sorry, but in this universe, that just is not supposed to happen.

So while I’m on the fourty five or so minute drive from Fairfield back to Novato, I’m basically tearing into myself trying to figure out what I’m doing wrong. And that’s basically when it hit me.

I’d been playing it as a patience fight, trying hard to avoid the critical error and letting it go into a waiting game. Justin, with far inferior tools, rushed him down.

And suddenly the whole see-saw of my fortunes against Cable became stupidly obvious. It’s a mental trap that BH players (me included) get into with the matchup against Cable, and we’ve been doing it for years, all the way back to the well-publicized match between Alex Valle and Justin Wong at MWC in '01. BH player thinks he’s got to play this matchup carefully and so he plays it super-safe in order to avoid giving up the big critical mistake against Cable. Cable’s happy to play this game. And BH loses this game pretty much 100% of the time.

So how does BH fight Cable? RTSD. It’s that simple.

This game is dominated by characters that either can throw out lots of crap, or characters that can get around it. BH, IMO, is highly underrated because people see that he throws out so much crap that they overlook that he’s also quite able to get around other chars’ crap as well. And that’s why most people think that BH can’t beat Cable, because he can’t throw out the crap as well as Cable can. And they’re right: if BH tries to out-turtle Cable, he is going to lose. EVERYONE is going to lose to Cable in a straight-up turtle fight if both sides are even at the beginning of it – the only time ANYBODY wins a turtle fight with Cable is if Cable was behind to start with. Yes, that includes Storm – when Storm beats Cable in a head-on, even-to-begin-with fight, it’s because she attacks him. She only wins running away on him if she’s ahead to start with.

And it also includes BH. Yet I’ve beaten Cables, even good ones, before, and it never really dawned on me as to why it seemed so much easier some times than others. Well, this was the answer: I beat them when I relentlessly get after them on the attack, and I lose when I try to out-wait them. I’d play the positional game the same in both cases, and I could get Cable where I wanted him most of the time… but there’s a difference between playing super-defensive in someone’s face on one hand and truly attacking them on the other. This all works, because at some point you can only run away from BH so well. The ability to throw an inferno column at almost any time that he can combo into whatever super he feels like really does put a crimp on people’s ability to go vertical on him, and when he can keep the range close, Cable loses if BH has brought any real offense to the table to work with – such as my DHC to Sentinel/Commando. Granted, don’t get careless with it, but you still have to take it pretty relentlessly.

Test of the theory? I ran into rimrattler again the next day. I told him I wanted to see his Cable again. He complied. And I attacked. And I OCV’ed him.

220

Although I am not going to undermine you or rimrattler’s ability, I think this has a lot more to do with mentality then anything. I dont fear cable as much as I used to, but he is still dangerous, and with top players, the only option they leave you is to run, with a tiny hole for retaliation. I find that sometimes I get myself into a rut, as you did, and then come back the next day with a fresh mind that is able to rethink strategies. It makes sense that RTSD is the only option for Cable, but BH just dosen’t have to many weapons for that, after you get in close you have a few options before they mash the AA assist button to get you off. Maybe some video of what you mean would help me to invision it more.