How to teach a sf noob cvs2

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
41

fuk it ill take a crack at it: if i was 2 teach a noob cvs2 id teach them dhalsim… i know i know wtf??? right. well you dont need 2 teach them how 2 fireball bcuz thats what standing fierce is 4, also cvs2 is HEAVY AA based, most of this game is AA, because there so damn good. dhalsim also is not a combo chara so the learning curve is smaller. i know what youre thinking…dhalsim is a freking EXPERT chara!!! YES he is, but learning him actually takes control issues out at first.(mostly)

  1. telegraphing: he’ll teach even a noob how not 2 telegraph, cuz if u do youll get destroyed.

3 fuk it i’m loath 2 do this cuz i cnt type but fuck it.

i dont know how 2 copy and paste so 2 who ever said they jump when im thinking poke they poke when im thinking AA… your rock papers scissors is off, meaning your going int othe fight thinking ima poke them all day with standing fierce. there thinking ima jump at this fool alot cuz ima noob and i dont know any better. seriously, thats what there thinking.so basically your thinking ROCK there thinking PAPER… SO YOU GOTTA TEACH THEM NOT TOO. in other words youve gotta think SCISSORS. the reason is because jumping in has always been the easiest way 2 attack in damn near every street fighter that has ever been. PERIOD. nobody likes 2 think of themselves as a pussy ie. turtle so the average scrub WILL jump in ALOT. cvs2 is no exception. i bet what youre doing is zoning 4 like2 seconds (while looking 4 the AA and 2 block any pokes coming your way) then when u see nothing you decide there turtled up so u figure poke then they jump cuz youre rock fails 2 there paper. GET IT??? so what you do is instead of only looking 4 a jump in for 2 secs at a time you look for 4 secs or 6 secs or 8 or 10. if you watch alot of match vids (and you say you do) youll notice alot of time is spent doing NOTHING whats happening there is there both playing PAPER ie. looking 4 the AA or a wiffed ground move. if you think you should be able 2 AA w/o looking 4 one good luck. i used 2 be the same way, people would jump at me all day and i’d still insist on trying 2 play a ground poking game when i should have been turtling(Looking 4 the AA).

also i should mention that the reason this strat is overlooked by weaker players is because they got beasted on(rushed down) by some expert or they saw some vid of somebody beasting the shit out of some fool and they figure THATS what expert play is. but they never figure that the rushdown usually comes AFTER defence has been well executed.HOWEVER what your trying 2 do is the pseudo poke rush down BEFORE youve gotten an advantaged position. GET IT??

p.s. the tone of this post came off as slightly mocking, thats my bad typing as its taken me almost an hour just to type this so i couldnt afford put in niceties. thats not how i wanted 2 come off tho cuz i really hope this helps u play better. or at least get you started on the right path, cuz our community NEEDS new blood :slight_smile:

42

Me eyes hurt.

Yes controlling your space and maintaining your defense is perhaps the first thing they should learn, then how to take full advantage of the momentum you gain when you end up with the initative.
There’s nothing wrong with turtling though, I turtle until a knockdown, then I mix them up to death unless they break it and get out, in which case I turtle again.
The clock will do the work for you.
It does help though to have some sort of generic background pressure though to tick and tick away at them and make them come to you though.

43

yes, in videos. Ppl here don’t stay quiet thinking paper, they close their eyes and mash on rock, scissors and paper

44

That is the best most truest fucking quote ever.

45

vk, i also forgot 2 mention that you might not be getting enough mileage off of your AA’s. think about it, you get a non dp AA it’s almost as good as getting a knock down ie. you get priority for the next attack, so switching it up as they land can get you damage, pressure, etc.

also, something i NEVER see scrubs doing is dash back this is SO GOOD it’s unbeleivable it resets your offense which is good if youve had the initiative 4 awhile as it prevents you from getting predictable with your timing or attacks.

if people are switching up R.P.S that well you might have bow to down and rethink there skill, get some respect if there reading you that well. cuz scrubs dont read me i read them :slight_smile: either they are actually good or your reactions are horribly slow, cuz i cant see how there jumping in ALL DAY and u cant stop them. which means your telegraphing your shit.

example, your using sakura your at half screenyouve been doing st.FK as a poke all day, however your at half screen so your out of it’s range, you walk in, they see you walking toward them and KNOW your going to fk so right before you get into range they jump and you havent even roundhoused yet but since NOBODY can see a jump when it’s only an inch off the ground you still FK and by the time it comes out it wiffs badly. the tele graph is always walking in from out of range and sticking your best poke at max range. thats how i get psychic dp’s all the time.

thats against weaker players tho cuz experts wont telegraph there moves in this manner

46

Pardon me, but how does dashing back reset your offense? If anything that more or less resets the match putting space between you and your opponent. If anything that’s more of a defense-oriented player’s move or a way to get space to throw a fireball (or some such)…which if done often enough the dash back becomes a sign of a fireball (or some such), then you get to use the dash back to bait jump ins if you’re playing your mind games right.
Otherwise I’d never dash back if I’m landing my mixups successfully unless my character is stronger in that particular matchup on pure defense alone and the risk/reward is against me with the mixup game.

Could u elaborate?
Plz?

Everyone telegraphs moves. Some people are better than others and are ahead of their opponents a spell or two. Some adapt better.
Some don’t telegraph at all. Some just purely react.

47

calm down, yes AAing is a critical skill, but that’s completely not what cvs2 is about, watch high level play, you see like 4-5 AAs per match, AAing is only the meat of the match for owning scrubs

backdash doesn’t reset your offense, it gets you the hell out of the way of their offense =P it resets your offense if you’re playing a scrub that can’t AA or poke properly and thus, allowing you to dictate the pace

48

It often is unexpected. Can use it after you knock someone down depending on the range. It often requires you to know what the person is going to do depending on space. Ie you can dash back to avoid throw or if they are mashing on shorts/jabs. It helps though if you dash out of their fierce range in case they are trying to throw and fierce comes out. But anyway, often when you dash they are sticking out a move and you have frame advantage because of it, or they are unexpecting and you can poke again… I’ve seen it in k-groove (although i dont use k-groove) that you can dash back and then do a running jab counter hit.

Dash back -> sweep gives you a lot of knock downs too (blanka comes to mind…)

49

Ah, well I can see how back dashing can set up counter-hits like what you mentioned, dash back run up d.lp and such, but that harkens back to what I asked earlier about total length of a dash in frames per second now doesn’t it?
Even a backdash in this case. Blanka’s in particular is pretty fast, pretty much equal to Rugal’s forward dash.

Then again this is almost moot since you can punish a mashed dp or wake up mashers in general and stuff wakeup throws/RC’s/Supers when you’re in close. Backdashing can leave you open for a pounding depending on the timing of course, but for the sake of arguement we’ll say you backdash perfectly so you recover in time to stomp their mashing, but they don’t mash. Now they’re away from you and the match is more or less “reset,” albeit generally closer than you two were at the start of a match, in an ideal range perhaps to play footsies again.

Sounds like something you’d do against people who are braindead, Kyo for example would never do that, he’s stay on his downed opponent like a fly on cowshit, a depressed teen on an apple pie, a guest on a game show, a guy having his first with a chick, a gas company on raising prices, a Jeffrey Dalmer wanna-be on his father, a knife-wielding woman on John Wayne Bobbit, a total Douche asking Quiche for a Total Douche av, a scrub playing 40 matches for a single win vs a better player, a 10 inch long centipede on a 2 inch long mouse (ugh), some desperate fools on myspace on pictures of woman (especially when they don’t know who the fuck it is), a car on roadkill, a frog on that cowshit waiting for that fly…

I think we’re on the same page:tup:
Get’s you out of the way of their blind mashing offense/reversal offense

50

backdashing = better space control

51

I definitely believe it’s good offensively… i dont think i would use it defensively, except for blanka. if you use it try to get away from them you will usually end up eating hits. doing something like c.jab and back dash (where c.jab leaves you with frame advantage) not only alows for mashing of buttons, moves etc, but usually leaves you completely safe. This in some cases makes them less likely to attack. If they do throw out a move you have to also consider how long it takes their move to reach where you are, assuming you are in range of this move. Although this is not something you continually do it does have it’s attacking purposes. If you are pressuring someone it gives them something to think about. How many times have you punished a back dash when the person is attacking you? And how many times do you see someone backdash when you are being attacked? Imo you only use it offensively or to reset space. You use it while someone is in the process of thinking whether to throw/dragon/block for example and it’s possible they will not know how to react to it on time because it so quickly changes your spacing - allowing you to pressure again. You dont always do it though when it is technically safe for you to do so. If you do it late they might not think you are doing it, and will narrow down what they might do to exclude it, making it the safest option. In the end the timing of things like this all come down to how well you know your opponent. Doing thing safely all the time often allows your opponent to gain initiative and force you into block stun.

I definitely think we need to get away from the whole frame data theme … it does tell you what can happen in a match, but not what will happen. If you are thinking “this person wont do this because they do not have the frames to” you will eat a lot of things that “shouldnt happen”. The best thing i can think of to illustrate this is a tech throw. After a tech throw you can poke to put them in block stun, hit them if they somehow did not yet realize you teched the throw, or hit them if they try to walk in again. However, if you try to hit them you might get psychic dragon’d or super/activation. This is why you often see people walking in to throw again (often after tapping down just long enough to make the other person think they are blocking), or both people blocking. Blocking is obviously the safest thing to do, but if you are not waiting to tech a throw you can easily get thrown.

So even if they dont mash on things while in block stun or wake up, the quick change in distance gives you the opportunity to interrupt their thought process (or at least attempt to).

The timing of things always depends on who you are playing, and their concept of what you are trying to do.

52

It’s a tool, and definitely a sign that perhaps your opponent is controlling his space and you’re dancing to his tune, by this of course I’m presuming you don’t know who you’re up against.
Dunno don’t recall how this started little tired, angry from work. Anyway…

I believe that backdashing is good for controlling space
I also believe that backdashing negates whatever advantage or initiative you had on mixups, but I recognize that mixups in and of itself take a second hand seat when controlling space is of utmost importance. Perhaps playing Kyo/Rock and such dulls my senses to a “Guile-lite” sense of playing out matches…
But even Guile doesn’t backdash when he’s got his opponent cornered. Sure he can backdash to make enough space so that anti-airs come easier and more naturally to him, but he can negate that easier when he’s got the pressure on. If the somehow manage to jump out he could easily put them back there, but I generally don’t see this happening when they’re rising into a meaty d.MP or RC’d Sonic Boom.

Well, in a manner of speaking controlling space is being offensive. So long as you’re in control and dictating what your opponent does and making them react to you it’s all good.
About using it defensively, all I can say is that from a turtling perspective where you’re just reacting to whatever they do to initiate their offensive, backdashing becomes a tool for maintaining your effective zones.

I guess this:

effectively this sums it up

While this is a certain possibility, it’s not necessarily the case for every matchup.
Take Guile, so far as it seems he generally always has a sonic boom on the screen. Not a robot like sonic boom where he does one and as soon as he’s able throws another, but generally to maintain the defensive position his opponent has taken in direct response to his Booms (especially when RC’d)

I don’t study frames so I can predict the future. I study frames so that if my opponent plays a universally recognized (and abused) patterns such as my illustration…

Blocked Meaty RC Electricity, d.HK

I know what my options are.

Thanks to some discussion, I learned RC Elec, blocked, gives Blanka +10. That’s basically the same as Cammy’s s.HP. Doesn’t let him combo shit when it connects outside of CC activation, but when blocked it makes the next d.HK guaranteed. Let slip a slight gap in there and you can make that d.HK counter-hit knocking anyone down mashing to nail Blanka in his recovery (which shouldn’t happen anyways). Even if they don’t mash, you still get your guardcrush, your meter, for less risk than what they’re forced to deal with.

Being on the receiving end of that, what are your options? If you know your opponent is following this set standard, and mixes up between just forcing you to block the d.HK or setting up a counterhit, there’s a number of things (most risky), but that’s all up to execution and willingness to let go of block during this pattern. If he/she is, well that’s an opening, however slight and it can be exploited.

Of course this is all based on whether your opponent or not is following that pattern, and based on whether or not the initial discussion was correct but whatever.
'Course he could just mix up by not doing anything and watching my reversal attempt go sky-high.

There are ways to deal with it, but ideally it looks like the best way to combat it is not to get caught in it, which means not getting nailed by the few moves Blanka has to knock you down.

Going by my Guile cornering opponent stuff earlier on…
Guile’s perfectly safe with his d.MP/d.MK’s, though ideally of course he’ll want his d.MP’s when he’s close enough and opponent’s cornered especially when he’s got them scared or turtling up or whatever, just on defense. They roll it you recover early enough to do it again or throw or d.MK or whatever.

So do one, then another and cancel that d.MP into a Sonic Boom, and it’s blocked, well…
You can hit Guile with your fastest normal and possibly beat his if he goes for one, especially if you know you have a faster one. Frame advantage off blocked Booms is 0, completely even for both. So fastest normal wins.
I suppose this is, or would be a good time or good setup for you to backdash now…
Though I wouldn’t since you generally always go to charge again after another boom. This is where my inexperience takes this discussion, but I’d go for charging downback immediately afterwards, after all the d.MP’s did push you back slightly.

After this I presume it’s a pure guessing game with you in the advantage anyhow since they’re cornered, all spaced in the timing of an RC’d Boom (Which is more or less safe now since you’re pushed back a ways right?) This is where your solid corner game strings come into play, and I don’t know exactly what Guile’s are just yet, but if anything it’s all educated guess turned into instinctive responses based on your experiences.

Well, Guile’s now pushed away enough that anti-airs aren’t a problem, got a bit of a charge, perfect range to nail folk with d.HP if they try to escape that way, can easily throw them if they try to roll out and they’re not playing Iori:annoy: or d.MK xx super the roll recovery, or if you want airthrow them back into the corner (risky? loose charge or throw them away from the corner when using air-block? Whatever) And based on what they do now after that initial blocked Sonic Boom he’ll know whether or not they know (or at least suspect) that while they can’t punish a blocked sonic boom they can at least try to counter his following pokes if any… And he’ll keep that in mind when he unleashes that RC’d Boom… If he does. (That can be rolled… 43 frames total…)

Sheesh. Complicated.

While I agree with you that the timing of things always depends on who you are playing, it is safe to presume that in a tourney most of your matches will be best out of 1. Single elimination, etc. So you don’t have the luxury of hindsight, just experience, skill, reaction time, whatever.

It’s your concept of what they’re likely to do as well as their concept of what you’re trying to do, as well as the knowledge that at the lower levels of the tourney you’ll likely be fighting either someone of

less skill
equal
more

and this dwindles as you climb the ladder slowly to
equal skill
more skill

and eventually
more skill

Unless you’re among those one, two or three at the top where anything goes.

53

hmmmm… i never thought backdashing would get this much attention! hey gwai thx for having my back dude.

any ways gwai stated most of what i was thinking in the first paragraph of his last post. back dashing on defense aint particularly great. it’s offensively that it really shines. for instance if u watch jap vids of cvs2 or a3 and you watch there MOVEMENT youll notice that almost all the japanese use walking back or back dashing liberally. daigo whores this shit like no other. so does valle. yet there opponents almost always get pushed into the corner. WHY is this???

its because people are afraid of attacking them and wiffing another move and getting pounced on because of it. so once the walking back has got them stymied the other guy goes apeshit on them and starts letting off all kinds of pokes in there ass and they get overwhelmed. valle is one of the few people in america who knows this (and uses the shit). and people pretty much universally agree hes got the best footsies around. now i aint saying im ANY WHERE NEAR his calibur, cuz lord knows i aint. but i do know EXACTLY why hes good and why daigo is 2 and why iyo is also. they all have different playing styles. but every one of them uses changes in distance EXTREMELY well to confuse there opponents. even the low level japanese players i see use these same tools but they arent as good at it because of reaction time as well as strategy ( knowing when to do it). its this same reason why my back dashing game aint what it could be.

also, when i referred 2 backdashing in my previous post i was speaking primarily on dhalsim when he gets some one cornered, cuz sims got more range than any body. however back dashing (while on offense) is good with any chara thats got good ranged tools, and even with short ranged chracters if you have good footsies.

anyways i’ll go int some good back dash setups if yall want me 2 but this typing shit is a bitch… further discussion is very welcome on my part cuz i aint here just to teach!

what EXACTLY do i have 2 do to copy and paste??

54

This

plus this

Is basically how I see it.
I only backdash when the opponent is in the corner. Until then, I always try to work them to the corner, less movement, etc.
When the opponent is in the corner, you still have an offense and you still have the initiative.

55

:tup: Good discussion.

Just hit the quote button on someone elses post, and you’ll have a general framework to build upon, and learn to modify how the whole thing looks in its entirety and check on it by preview post

56

Just hit the quote button on someone elses post, and you’ll have a general framework to build upon, and learn to modify how the whole thing looks in its entirety and check on it by preview post
[/quote]

thx man i didnt really expect anybody 2 respond 2 my question. But it’s obvious your cool peeps:cool:! I still havent figured out how 2 get a boxout quote w/o quoting the entire post or how 2 quote something from another thread and put it elsewhere, or how 2 post links…:lame:

baby steps lol

57

Stop it, you’re making me blush.

In general if you want to quote from another thread, go ahead and quote that passage in that thread (without submitting it) copy the whole thing but delete the bits you don’t want to keep, select another thread and use the quick reply option at the bottom and paste the info there. If you want the boxes and stuff don’t touch the stuff in [brackets].

Specifically, to quote someone…
[ quote=Dime_x ]
text
[ /quote ]

Simple right? You’ll get used to it soon enough I figure.

Gameplan

Ok now I’d like to argue a notion I read about in one of Ponder’s old threads outlining the major factor in landing your 10K combos (or whatever), opportunity.

I think the best character to describe this (CvS2 history-wise) is A-Rugal, or perhaps more appropriately Rugal in general…
In contrast to say …A-Sakura

I’ve heard people say before CvS2 is a super/meter oriented game; basically first character to build meter and land it wins.

Perhaps for Rugal this is where he’s hurting because opportunity to land his meter is more or less restricted to his landing his shorts. This has to do of course with his not having enough tools his competition, the top/upper-mid tier, has.
The only time he’ll likely land those shorts is in his dope corner game.
The hard part for him is gaining that upper hand and forcing them into the corner, even though he has a special move that’s designed to do just that, when introduced to the match people keep an eye out for preventing opportunities for Rugal to land it (i.e. parry, d.MK, …RC?) and you just nulled that move, forcing him to work all that much harder for his corner game.
He does have two fireballs to control his space, reppu’s and waves, but usage of each is heavily matchup specific. He does have nicely ranged pokes, but usage of those is best reserved for defensive/reacting purposes, outside of perhaps his low jump coffin kick—which according to some doesn’t benefit him so much as does lvl 2 cancels or chicken blocking.
All this and yet he probably has the easiest 10K+ combos in the game.

A-Sakura by contrast is more or less safe after her RC’d hurricane kicks she can use to get in/knockdown, has a faster long ranged poke, a fast enough roll to punish Rugal’s fireballs with a b&b—>that leads to either another b&b, a throw, crossup roll, a jump’in crossup, or at minimum guard damage—leading to possible mistakes made in attempt to avoid inevitable guardcrush to CC or another B&B.
IIRC she has a link to CC, but she doesn’t need fear her CC getting blocked since hers and hers alone does incredible damage connected or not with the reaction speed of slappipng 2 buttons, maxing out at 10K+ connected or a Sagat’s fierce worth less when blocked, and she doesn’t have to completely guardcrush you afterwards. Ending with a hurricane kick puts her in an ideal position to tack on another mixup which could lead to another and another.

I suppose you can say it all boils down to a specific characters ability to firstly control his defensive space (otherwise get Rushed Down) and then create that opportunity with a combination of using the tools at hand combined with the tendancies of either your opponent or likely moves made by that character he/she plays.
This is a fine balance between reducing opportunities for your opponent to land his meter while opening up opportunities (and keeping them open) to land yours.

Unless your character is so over-powered as to make the outcome of the match completely wrong… Such as Super Street Figher 2 Turbo’s Akuma

58

The first thing to do as a noob is just to understand how each of your normal moves work for a specific character (like which normal is a good anti air, or which move is good for punishing at long distances for example), and just to play smart. Lots of noobs who used to come to my arcade would ALWAYS do the same pattern: jump in HK, attempt a trip, repeat. Repeating the same attack over and over would not qualify as “playing smart,” no matter how good or safe this method may seem. CVS2 overall discourages jumping I think, as there are many ways to punish jumping (AA normals, specials, or even supers to make you regret jumping). Specials IMO for the most part only aid your normal moves, whether it be in a combo or just to help keep distance or whatever. The first combo I learned was jump in MK, crouching MK into fireball (with Ryu). I would recommend noobs just stick with C groove at first to get used to the game, and then start experimenting with other grooves and maybe even some basic CC’s (like Ken’s repeated HK CC or Balrog’s pimp ass wiggler combo…lol). It all really depends on how serious the person is about learning the game, or if they just wanna BS on it. If they just wanna BS I tell them to pick top tier and just do their really cheesy pokes (Cammy’s HK, or Vega and Sagat’s crouching HP).

The biggest thing is to practice combos in training mode…but I would NOT recommend playing against the computer beacuse they make you get into some bad habits (like how the stupid computer will let u jump in for free, but then low perry into super like no big deal…aint that some shit)

59

What are good teams with grooves to teach a person new to cvs2 but not fighting games in general ?

60

Personally, I’ll put the person on C-Groove since it’s the beginner’s groove and make sure they know the groove in and out. As far as the character selection for their team goes…try to teach them characters that you know are good on C-Groove. An example would be to have them try Guile, Ken and Sagat (which are very good on C-Groove) and learn the basics with those characters (normals, safe projectile distances, poke strings, etc.). If one or two of the characters seems to be difficult for the person to learn then try another character or two that you know are good on C-Groove. Basically, if you’re going to form someone’s team on a particular groove make sure you put them on a groove that’s not too advanced and that you know which character performs very good on that groove which also isn’t too hard for them to learn.