How good would HDR have been if it was feature complete

I agree with a lot of what you say. When the likes of Wong and Daigo lose on remix it’s no big deal. Remix is an afterthought for those guys and they have moved onto new pastures.

Also when i mentioned big names i didnt mean on the level of Daigo and the others you mention. They dont give a damn either way, im talking the more modest big names who still play ST all the time.

Of course ST users arent the only reason remix was dropped but they dont help matters. Evo wants to feature the most popular games and remix becomes even less of a draw when the community is so divided.

There’s a good chance that if HDR was feature complete that we would still have it at EVO. Read this all the way through before bitching please.

It seems to me the largest problem for HDR besides the art delays and lack of resources (like programming time) was the size limit for XBLA games (PSN had no such restriction). Before HDR, the size limit was 100MB (originally it was 50MB, and Symphony of the Night set the bar for that first 100MB game). From how I remember it, Backbone/Sirlin had to push MS to raise the limit to a paltry 250MB. Of course, since the game was for both major platforms, you had to go with the lowest common denominator.

Now just think for a second if HDR was just released for PSN (or if they waited until MS raised their XBL limit to 2GB). No file size restrictions = a myriad of possibilities:

  1. Uncompressed/less compressed art (possibly resulting in a more smoother looking game).
  2. One system to work on means dedicated resources (and more possible patches maybe?).
  3. More space = more options, like the full arcade perfect version of Dreamcast ST (backgrounds and all) for the crybabies.

Obviously hindsight is 20-20, but if Capcom/Backbone opened up a limited full-cast beta to people who really cared about the game (say SRK and Capcom Unity guys) maybe we could’ve gotten better balance input (remember beta-Ken and his juggling MP SRKs?).


Just having flawless ST included with HDR would’ve increased tourney life IMO (let’s be real, some SF2 is better than no SF2).

/rambling

You can arguably say that HDR has been replaced at evo by MK9, which would mean it ISNT tourney turnouts which dictate whether a game features at evo, its sponsorship and thats a heartbreaker.

And matchup wise, i think the best way to dissect a matchups requirements is to 1st to 10 someone, you will always fluke something original which changes how you see your character. I.e a crossup is like a takedown attempt in mma.

I dont think this thread is evidence of intractability (uncontrollable), there is no bickering and the threads philosopy is one of reconciliation with sirlin, i.e at the time HDR was released there was no way to actually make the perfect game due to restrictions.

At least its been somewhat educational.

HDR needed a record mode in training and have “Classic graphics” change everything. Not just character sprites.
The End :woot:

Kind of OT, but I wanted to mention it anyway. I was playing HSF2 on AE the other day, and I thought back to the OGs who played HF and what not but never really took to ST for whatever reason.

If anything, HSF2 should have helped unify that bit of the community, because now the HF and ST players could use their respective versions of their characters in the same game, but no one ever plays it - the ST players just stuck to ST (and presumanly pre-ST players stuck to whatever version they played).

Why doesn’t anyone play HSF2? Is it because it’s not the “original”, or are there some bad character balance issues?

I don’t know how the game would pan out competitively, but I like fighting the different versions (except O.Sagat lol). Kind of a shame that you couldn’t pick ST characters in HDR mode, don’t you think?

This x infinity

I agree with alot of what Chong is sayin and also what Oldschool said about the whole players today not playin the best players before in their prime…

But at the same time most people will automatically say that the best players from before are way better than the players today in their prime which just CANT be proven

A true account of the golden era with information provided by individuals from amongst the golden greats who prefer to remain anonymous.

It was after hours, a young boy was in training mode of SF2 WW. Practicing combos, spacing, the perfect counter to every situation. Of course there was no training mode but the training was facilitated by his mentor Charles Franco who was older and wealthier than the impressionable Tomo and he provided a stready stream of quarters.

Charles was older than Tomo and had the vision for the game but none of the execution or skill needed to truly excel. Charles recognised Tomo as one of lifes orphans and protected him and provided stability and a moral compass.

He wanted Tomo to remain clean and free of vice and he frowned on some his associates in particular Jeff Plumber and Mike Watson. Jeff Plumber later changed his name to Shaeffer for more recognition in the tourney scene.

Charles knew Jeff from old and was gravely concerned that he was trying to encourage Tomo to engage in binge drinking, LSD and procuring the services of street hookers often prior to tourneys. Mike was heavily into cannabis at the time which is ultimately what led to his psychosis.

For the most part Charles was able to protect the impressionable Tomo but Jeff had a very forceful personality and would not take no for an answer. Charles confronted Jeff one day and advised him to lay off and Jeff turned around spat in his face. Jeff was barred from the arcade and later that day sustained a very bad beating by 2 unknown assailants. It is not decisively established if this was linked to the earlier confrontation but most people in the know say that Charles himself had some powerful backers who took a dim view of what happened.

Tomo began his rise up the ranks winning tourney after tourney. He was regarded as the best player in the US at the time and although he was beatable, noone consistently beat him.

His greatest challenge came in the form of Mike Watson a Ryu and dictator player also well known for his Guile. It is estimated throughout the course of all their matches the outcome was 60-40 in Tomo’s favour.

Tomo, Mike and Jeff rode the wave of this new era as the most dominant players of their time all the way up till Super Turbo when all except Mike retired.

If Video killed the radio star then almost certainly the same can be said of Superturbo.

Superturbo arrived and the transition from the slower simpler games proved to be a difficult one. Tomo was unable to get to grips with the speed coupled with the added moves and the additional depth afforded by the supers.

Tomo and Jeff did well up to a point as people had not yet got to grips with the uses and application of the new moves and for a few short months they continued to dominate, however it became clear that the old school tactics were insufficient in the face of a new breed of opponent. Tomo made the decision to quit on this basis plus some bad losses to newcomers and he recognised the danger to his legacy.

Jeff continued but was humilated badly by Thomas Osaki who destroyed him 10-0, 3 times over in a series of casuals. He made the decision to quit shortly after.

Mike continued to play but it became clear that he was not the force he was in the older games. He was facing the young people he used to humilate and dominate in the older games and they had overtaken the master.

People speak of the golden age of Sf2 but often misundertand its meaning. The meaning has been managed and deliberately misunderstood and in reality the golden age referred to an age when SF2 was at its most popular, arcades were packed with great players, tactics that paved the way for the subsequent generations were born but the players were not the best of all time. The games were slower, the competition was not at the level it came to be in later years.

Tomo, jeff and mike dominated at a time when competition and the games were easier. In some ways they were ahead of their time but by the same token they were unable to move with the times.

People persist with the untruth that Tomo was the greatest SF2 player of all time. The forums of shoryuken, youtube etc are replete with Americans gushing about Tomo, embellishing, speaking of tactics that are now considered impossible and yet they never saw him play and there is no video evidence to substantiate the claims.

The jap ST legends stand alone IMO. They are proven and the footage is there to be seen.

These fictions, pious frauds shall we say that continue to be peddled to this day. The idea that players from the golden age of SF were the greatest players that ever lived.

The idea that Tomo wasnt human, used tactics that are consigned to history, is the greatest player that ever lived and would destroy the jap kings of ST.

I dont buy this and one lunatic with a uni-brow is at the centre of this fiction of tomo and unicorns. A retired SF player from the golden era that still has enough passion for the game to make a new vid every other week.

Sure tomo achieved but that was in a time when talent and comp was considerably less.

The fact is, this fiction is borne out of the failings of said individual and his inability to beat Tomo. Instead of overcoming his mental block and admitting his failings, better to elevate Tomo to god status.

Sadly the fiction is reinforced ( well in the eyes of kids and noobs ) by a BS win by said indivual over Daigo on AE. A win yes, but totally distorted and misrepresnted. Daigo jet lagged - check, bat tops -check, casuals -check. The sledgehammer that is CE guile - check. The list goes on.
This was an opportunistic mugging of Daigo and defamation of the highest order. The vid is being used to this day to fuel the narrative that the golden greats are the best of all time.

I reiterate -They werent the best of all time, they were the best in those days. Times changed, a new breed emerged. The golden greats began to lose ground to a new breed of player and instead of taking the losses like men and levelling up even playing second fiddle they retired.

All except for one…watson!!

We need to thank mike for this because he is the key to unravelling the truth of that era and seperating fact from fiction.

I would argue by way of extrapolation that Tomo would never have been as good as the Japanese Kings of ST.

Look at it like this. Tomo’s toughest comp was mike watson. Tomo and mike went 60-40. So we can see that Mike was very much in Tomos league. Mike watson provides the measuring stick by which we assess the skills of Tomo.

By fighting on, this living dinosaur allows us to peer into the primordial ooze of the golden age and assess the claims made about the golden era.

I dont need to elaborate further, Mike Watson was decent but show me what Mike achieved in ST. Less than Sirlin for crying out loud.

People may want to say that he was past his prime. Well Mike was in his prime when he transitioned to ST and continued. We arent talking about boxing here. It’s a game and he’s hardly old. I would argue he is an even better player today but was never more than a journey man.

Sad as it is the great Tomo would have been nothing more than a journey man.

Im sorry to break it to some of you, the tooth fairy doesnt exist either.

In summary the world of SF is ruled by gatekeepers, guardians of knowledge, institutions so mature in power that their views go unchallenged by the laymen.

But BS is BS and none of these people are bigger than the game.

Just as Jeff Plumber peddles the lie of Tomo and the golden era, hiding behind myths and reputation, certain embittered individuals peddle the lie of baby zone in insolent envy of the new breed of player that is dominating in tourneys.

You wanna know what baby zone is, i’ll tell you.

Baby zone = O-Sagat versus most of the ST cast.
Baby zone = Balrog vs most of the ST cast.
Baby zone = Sim vs Guile in ST

And all because they wont play second fiddle or level up.

Where did you copy-pasta that from?

TIL cannabis causes psychosis.

PROTIP: Masturbation causes hair to grow on your palms and deprives you of vital humours - eventually leading to insanity and blindness.

I have been biting my fist to stop myself from posting in this thread, and I just about managed it - but I can’t resist saying bravo to this comment. Obviously it’s not true of everyone, but to certain people it certainly appears that it is.

I believe old players deserve the respect they got. And it is clear that things like footsies suffered a lot in ST: just try to face Chun as Ryu without using hadoukens. In fact, the new (SSF2) hadouken and the speed from ST make the hadouken a much better tool. Rog kills footsies. I believe they have a reason when they say certain things changed the game in a major way. But I believe ST is still an awesome game, that deserves to be played forever and the ones who left missed as much as the ones who left SF2 cos “CapCom surrendered to the hacked versions” with Hyper Fighting.

I also do believe ST is still awesome despite the many additions it and SSF2 brought. But, unfortunately, they did get worse and worse with newer games. To the point they released A3 and that POS took over without people realizing how broken it was. Or not caring. Supers became more important, new mechanics took precedence over the basics, invulnerability could be achieved with 50% bar or more to even evade anti-air shoryukens, cross-ups were made retardedly easy (I puke when I see someone getting comboed by trying to sweep a misplaced cross-up attack and getting hit at the leg), hit-confirms into super, confirms into explosion (VCs), etc. Well, now we have SF4 and we know “baby-zone” design won. “Street Fighter” not anymore means that game in which we could pick among 8/12 characters and get to the bosses or face our friends: it is now ultra animations and confirmations. Period.

Anyway, what I wanted to say but screwed up is that old players deserve the respect, but we do not need to wait on their word to keep playing ST. I would rather have a 50-man tournament with ST enthusiasts who want to get better for the sake of it than some all-star tournament with only Daigo, Afro, Tokkido and Choi or whoever, but everyone else just watching. What makes SF2 great is that everyone can play, and what the scene needs is precisely people playing the game, not only online (which must continue), but also at tournaments and gatherings.

Just like EVO did help keeping fighting games alive, but we do not need to wait on them to keep ST alive. I will not say “screw EVO,” it has a legacy and it will remain, but I will say “forget EVO,” for now. It is something different now, it grew and there are sponsors, money and shit. We are seeing people state ST/HDR died because EVO is not anymore including the game, what the hell? Ponder helped ST much more through GGPO than EVO, really. And they pay for this forum, we should make good use of it and cut the trolling. Lots of people have superguns and XBox360s, tournaments can be held anywhere. At least in my country, it is consensus that we can not afford traveling constantly throughout a country that is as large as USA like the Shit Fighter 4 community can, with sponsorships and lots of new players around, so we gotta agree on a couple of events and that’s it. In USA, people are happy to have a few local tournaments and gatherings around due to some awesome people who do something else for the game, and this needs support.

Plush, I apologize if what I have written sounded like you and many other players do not have value, and I did screw up by not completing my thoughts. You, Thelo and others are examples, for sure.

My $0.02.

" Remix was responsible for bringing a lot of new players to SF. Many people who never touched ST became experts at remix"

–Elton Chong.

Where are all these new players? Why aren’t they showing up for tourneys? Who are the “many people” who are currently experts at HDR without having touched ST?

Seriously.

Look at who dominated HDR tournaments. Aside from Snake Eyez, it was almost made up entirely of former ST players.

There’s a lot of misinformation floating around in this thread, especially from the mouth of a guy who is not qualified to comment on the ST era here in the USA or the HDR tournament scene for that matter.

I sound like a broken record but I still say take all this negative energy and use it towards something positive for the HDR scene. All this whining and complaining is not constructive at all.

Hi. I wrote it all myself. No cut and paste there just the real story of the golden age. Information provided by players who were there and got sick of the lies and the bs narrative peddled by essentially one person. Jeff plumber is superimposing his own failings as a person onto tomo and the whole golden era scene. Do u realise most of what we know about that era is viewed through the prism of jeff plumbers warped view. This is what happens when an ego maniac and a control freak loses control ie loses to tomo. He generates a fiction based on partial truths as a crutch and an explaination for his failings. Same with the people who peddle the lie that is babyzone.How many times has jeff been called out on his memory. Watts has called him out, the Wolfe brothers, the list goes on. Calling him senile is a polite way of saying ur a liar.

Can’t respond to the other peoples comments right now. Butts are hurting I know but relief is on the way. Meantime get on remix and level up :slight_smile:

And don’t hate me. My function is only to protect the good and to eliminate the evil. Everything I do and say is for the greater good and future of remix. In order to that yes certain fictions need to be debunked. Yes people will be challenged and it’s high time.

I didn’t know most of this. Tips sombrero and nods
One crazy thing I’ve often read is Tomo never blocked or got hit by fireballs. He had to have been a beast though cause I used to play in a little Crip infested dark arcade called LazarBlast in San Bernardino and rumors reached all the way there. Anyways this should get interesting.

What about Thelo and Aqua Snake?

Kurropi is absolutely correct to say this. Whoever you are, make sure you get your facts straight before posting.

May I suggest you take a leaf out of my book. When you conduct primary research do it thoroughly, check the integrity of your sources and double check your info.

Good shit Kurropi.

lol.

SF2 in japan got really advanced because their arcade scene didn’t die. Arcades breed better comp and improve everyone’s skill overall.

I don’t think players in the US started getting good in sf2 again until the internet became a viable solution.

It’s not in dispute that JP is better tho…

So I guess me winnin XBL tournaments that included names like Marsgatti Genejin Misteregotrip and others is nothin right?

Or better yet how bout offline at MWC 2010 when I won and beat Alex Valle convincingly which also had names like Damdai Jhow Westcyde Immortal Bmw and others in which I also beat the hardest players to get to Grand Finals??

And then Focus Fire when I played Justin Wong who only beat me cause I didnt have my appropriate controller I GUARANTEE it. Watchin that video still looks like I won funny thing!

LMAO fuck outta here! I love how people wanna act blind on whats really goin on…

Oh and btw I dont fuck with ST and if I wanted to I promise I would be just as good. I also wanna say I have no hate for you ST players who just prefer it over HDR therefore thats what you play thats respectable. Just the players that wanna be ignorate piss me off.