In my experience, lag is a matchup specific factor.
As a Dictator user, I have big problems vs. a laggy Chun/Ken/Zangief.
But vs. a laggy Claw (and probably Dhalsim) I seem to have a huge advantage.
I hate playing vs. turbo users for any duration.
Why?
Because it trains bad habits into me.
I end up adjusting my play to play around them, and then this in turn actually leads me to adopt that playstyle into my game.
Not good.
I think you misunderstood my message. I was talking about with turbo on.
Apologies. Yeah, I’d think turbo would definitely facilitate that.
I seriously doubt Turbo helps with reversal timing, because I doubt there button press rate is 1 press per every 60th of a second… but it helps with too much other shit. I’d played an auto fire boxer, and I thought it wouldnt work out but one guy changed my opinion real quick. Never. Again.
How exactly does turbo help Boxer? Was he mashing standing jabs, and do you use Honda? Perhaps his grabs were really damaging with turbo?
I’d love to see a list of cheaters. I’d also like to see how the ‘jury’ and ‘judge’ are going to decide who’s cheating and who’s not.
I’m not a turbo-detecting pro but I find that reversal throws seem next to impossible to land when I go up vs someone using turbo. Interestingly, some users will just admit they are using turbo, without knowing its ‘wrong’. Oh well.
Lag is horrible, but just avoid large pings and if you suspect a lag switch - STEP! Nappynightmares is an excellent example. You must be WINNING to see him/her/that using it. Though, sometimes, its fun to win against that much adversity. Hopefully players have set their networking smoothing to ‘none’ instead of the default medium. That allows you to see all of the jumping/lag and play accordingly, instead of seeing your dead opponent resurrect and combo you to death. :^)
l8tes
I don’t know their gamer tags but I’ve played more then a few players (usually kens) who get reversals every single fucking time or have great combo execution yet have little to no strategy beyond spam jab dp…which embarrassingly enough beats me very often in high ping matches but I hope it’s more then my pride speaking when I say ken’s jab dp is fucking broken on xbl:rofl: I’ve been accused of using turbo at least a dozen times using two fingers to drum a button really does give the appearance of using turbo but if sustained for more then a few seconds you WILL see a break in the pattern which indicates it’s a human not a robot (or just have your mic on and listen)
I myself have never accused Snake Eyes of cheating but his walkup and j hp spd’s are just so damn perfect I can’t help but consider the remote possibility that he/she might be cheating somehow but it’s good to know he/she doesn’t I respect his/her execution:tup: To those who lag intentionally I’ve always wondered how it is they can make it one sided I hate that shit though it is funny to see someone having to resort to such low moral scruples for a +1 on a tv screen:rofl:
Also Thelo is 100% right being able to play well in lag is a skill within itself. From AE to HF I’ve beasted on players I know to be much better then me I remember beating “insert well known player here” and then after the match thinking oh shit if I did that offline I would have been double perfected:rofl: I’m not talking about laggy throws either I mean timing my moves in a way so I know they’ll connect in heavy lag and taking into account that the other player is trying to execute moves as if he/she was offline.
So who are the obvious cheaters we should avoid?
Yeah, I know that technically if I hit the crossup late and go for a stand fierce immediately after (2 hit combo) that the stand fierce is unblockable. The problem I have is that sometimes I stick out the forward early (to maybe stuff certain reversals or stop the character moving/jumping) by which time when I have hit the floor the fierce does not combo, and throw>normal.
Yep I agree with all the above.
Which also brings up another Gief player Elkipor on PSN, seemingly a new Gief player on the online scene and has been doing well among the regulars, enough to gain a trophy achievement of “Turbo User!” In all seriousness, a lot of SRKers believes that he’s a turbo user. After playing him a lot more, I don’t think he is. He’s really good in reversals and getting the ticks if you don’t counter fast enough. I really don’t see turbo comes into play with Gief when he pulls off a “SPD”. I mean he still has to do the SPD motion (non-stored move). SPD still has one of the best priority in terms of range along with Sim’s throw.
I too, find the lag-switch accusation funny. NappyNightmares, who’s always mentioned as the guy with the switch. I usually hear this often on XBL since on PSN rooms break up faster than you can say lag switch. Being a long time player of HDR on PSN, I guess I can say I’m used to playing in lagged conditions and adapting to play very well with it as do many long time PSN HDR players who jumped to XBL over the past months. We know lag! Of course, playing in better condition is always better! I just think the connection between an opponent makes it appear that someone always lag. PSN has some known good players that always lag (Alpha-Kid or MrKaratey comes to mind), most are overseas like Japan or Central America but even some state side. It’s just when they play they can never get good a connection in a casual room >2 with most frequent players unless it’s 1vs1 setting.
If you are playing w/ network smoothing off then in theory you will have 0 input delay (due to lag). Lag cannot be used to make timing a tick throw easier because lag does not affect your local input. Lag could be used to make it harder for your opponent to react to you since frames are skipped under high latency. This to me is more abuseable w/ fast projectiles like honda’s headbutt or tiger shots than with tick throws.
Either way though, if the game is lagging - why play? Maybe they are cheating, maybe you just have a bad connection to them. Either way just find someone else. I know you can’t do this w/ ranked and that sucks, but that problem is unavoidable if you want to play ranked.
Turbo at best will give you a 50% chance to hit reversal windows for non button-up-able moves (ie regular throws) and in theory could give 100% for button up reversals like SPDs. However it would not help for throws/reversals where you have a frame advantage. ie you are waiting for your opponent to come out of block/hitstun to throw them: if you throw too early you will get a normal move.
Saying people who jab fast are using a turbo controller is ridiculous. Anyone with a decent stick should be able to use two fingers to mash the jab button and have the jabs come out as fast as the game allows. Note: if you are seeing jabs come out “so fast” that you aren’t seeing all of the frames its due to latency not a turbo controller.
There’s plenty of ways to get mashable buttons to come out “instantly” (without turbo!) by buffering the mashing during recovery of another move. Under no circumstance except the start of a round are you able to go from a neutral stand to mash move: you will always see a normal move come out for a few frames. Note that if you dont see the normal move it is almost certainly frames being skipped due to lag!
Overall I see no point in accusing others of cheating. You will never know for sure who is cheating and you look like a huge jackass when you accuse legit players of doing it. Most things people cite as being evidence for cheating are explainable due to how the netcode works or just by the other player having very good timing. Yes I’m sure people cheat, but in my hundreds of games I’ve never accused anyone or let it bother me. I’m sure I’ve played people using turbo and I’m sure I’ve beaten a fair amount of them. I just don’t care.
As soon as you let it in your mind that people online cheat a lot, you start thinking everyone cheats. And then people who just have better timing than you start beating you, you don’t accept it and try to get better but instead complain and make excuses. This is not the path to self improvement so dont let it bother you!
Doing well offline does not mean much in terms of cheating. A bunch of cheaters actually have some talent, but they simply lack the maturity to take their losses and improve so they use turbo to prevent it from happening. Others play really well, but do not own a stick and make use of macros ranging from simple 3K/3P buttons to whole SPD and combos because they can not achieve the execution consisteny and speed they have on the cabinet when using a keyboard at home. Some can, but many can not adapt to the keys. Great keyboard players are not the rule.
Turbo provides a lot of advantages in fighting games. Particularly, they help a lot in SF. I will translate an article I’ve prepared about mashing and button pressing in general as soon as I can, it has a much better explanation than I can provide right now.
As for reversals, I am sure it is possible to get some more simple reversals almost every time, with good timing and the proper techniques. Say, when a character is about to wake up, so nothing influences his timing but the game engine itself, it all depends on the player’s timing. When a good Gief is on you, it is much harder as they can mix up their ticks or just combo you to death, Pony-style.
Some good Giefs can walk up and SPD with ease, it does not mean much, often. There’s a guy at the local arcade who will walk up SPD every straight up jump. Macro users often can not do it because they don’t have the same distance control: they simply spam lariats, SPDs and jump ins and get SRKed or swept when someone wises up, stops blocking and just counters what they do. Geif cheaters are only a real problem in CE, HF and AE, with walk up jab SPD attempt, and a negative edge SPD when the arm retracs, rinse and repeat. They is totally retarded, no questions asked.
The turbo just gives you an edge for reversals if you can do the motion correctly. I don’t see how it would help you get a command throw since if you graze the button too soon you’d get stuck doing a normal, now if you always whiff jab before doing a hdr spd then something is off there. Since you don’t have to do the whole 360 anymore.
i can never tell how is some one is using a turbo. i mean i played some one who recovered from a dizzy right when they get up but other than that i cant tell.
But pros do this all the time. And no turbo controller is going to perfectly mash Up/Left->Down/Right (or U/R->D/L) for you which is the optimal mash technique for getting out of dizzy.
Listen to sound of the jabs when playing somebody you suspect of using turbo, normally you’ll hear each indivisual jab, with a turbo it’ll be a constant noise
One way to find out is to listen to the sound of the jab button,(if the turbo player exposes it) you can usually tell by how fast they are “mashing” it. But don’t get confused with the other method, which is piano’ing on one button (usually jab) on an arcade stick, its very very fast, but it is definitely not a turbo.
In this video, [media=youtube]_1GiX-qMYsk[/media] K (hawk) vs Kusumondo (Honda) (fight starts at 5:15) for example, K is piano’ing on the jab button, and as you can see, Hawk’s cr. jab is very fast. Again, this is NOT a turbo function
Turbo on a jab button = INSANELY fast. So fast, in fact, that you can very easily tell it is a turbo function.
Thats just one of many ways to suspect a player of using a turbo.
This is all why it’s really sad that they put Turbo on the “official” controllers for SF4. Way to make it “acceptable”… 
You could almost argue in the designers eyes that button bindings and turbo are meant to be “part of the online game” these days… I’ve even been accused of using turbo due to my sometimes-great throw reversal ability.
For the person who asked, lag switches are stuff like this. I believe when designed and used correctly they create way more lag on your opponents end than on yours.
I second all the stuff about playing in lag being a skill though. Sadly its one I don’t think I’ll ever fully acquire.
This too is a side effect of the way the netcode works. Frames are skipped but the game never skips sound “frames” (ie the entire sound is always played even if the initial frames are skipped due to latency). With high latency and hard mashing you will start having sound effects overlap in a way they would not in a local match.
A jab may last 12 frames: ~192ms. If your latency is greater than that then (with network smoothing off) you will not see a single frame of the animation but you will hear the entire sound. Now if packets are dropped/throttled in between the 192ms between 2 jabs, then its possible you will miss an entire first jab animation and the first frame or two of the next jab but you will hear both play a sound simultaneously. That’s the worst case where the sounds perfectly overlap, but in the still crappy but slightly better case you will get a frame or two separation between the sounds which creates the effect you describe.
The explanation doesn’t even need to be that complicated: a 12 frame jab takes 192ms: thats just under 1/5th of a second. Assuming we can’t cancel jabs early into another jab, then to achieve maximum jabbiness, you just need to press the button 5 times a second: anyone with a decent stick can do this with two fingers. Turbo gets you nothing other than your fingers not getting tired.
This is just not true. You must be going off of network games which have the sound artifacts/frame skipping that I describe above. That video you link shows the absolute fastest anyone is going to be able to jab: turbo or not. The bottleneck is how long the jab animation is, not how fast the button is pressed. What you think you see is really just networking artifacts (maybe from turbo users, yes, but also entirely possible by just people using two fingers to piano the jab button very fast).
“Never push the little red button”
I have a friend of mine who plays SF4 on the mad catz pad. I brang over my xbox with my arcade stick (which I almost never use) to test it out on HDR. On Hawk vs Hawk, I piano’d on the jab button while crouching on the stick, and it was completely identical to K’s piano’ing on that vid. On the other Hawk, I used the mad catz pad with the turbo on. I simply crouched and held jab and it can easily show its much faster than piano’ing on a stick by the much, much faster sound of the jab