How does the infinite prevention system (IPS) work?

[Mr.X]

Turns out the head falling back into the corner after OMNOMNOM is a mistake.

[Uncivilized_Elk]

Turns out the head falling back into the corner after OMNOMNOM is a mistake.

Uh, elaborate? A game design mistake? Is it going to be patched?

[d3v]

Because people quit MvC2 because of how broken that game was, that’s why it’s still being played for over a decade now.

By the way, Mike thinks that the fortune loop is, and I quote “neat.”

[Mr.X]

Uh, elaborate? A game design mistake? Is it going to be patched?

I still think that combo is neat - plus it’s hard. The problem, though, is her head goes the wrong way when you hit the opponent out of OmNomNom, it’s supposed to go behind her. I only noticed after we shipped. I’ll probably fix that since it was a legitimate oops. The only other choices are getting rid of the hold-HP-to-not-screw-up-your-combos, or not allowing hitting the head to eliminate cooldown, both of which I kinda don’t wanna do. :^)

[Zwoopboing]

Air chains don’t completely make sense to me yet in regards to IPS. It seems like multiple air chains or chains after air dashes aren’t counted as separate until combo stage 5.

For example, with Ms.Fortune, if you start a ground combo that launches and you go into the air, you’ll be at stage 3, and from there you can do j.MP>j.MK -ADC- j.MK xx qcb+P, falling j.MK and won’t be at stage 5 until you land, and even the falling MK won’t trigger the IPS. However, if you do an additional chain before your chain that launches, you’ll be at stage 5 in the air, and the MK after the air dash will trigger IPS. But… even if only the first j.MK is used at stage 3, and you go into a restand and relaunch, a j.MK will now trigger IPS.

Also, jump-ins seem to be limited to two moves, as far as combo stage goes. A single normal, two chained normals, or a normal cancelled into a special will put you at stage 1 until you land, and then stage 2 once landed. However, two chained normals cancelled into a special leaves you at stage 3 when the special hits, then stage 5 when you land.

[ironboy89]

Just keep in mind that just because you got rid of Ms.Fortune OMNOMNOM loop doesn’t mean there aren’t long combos.
[media=youtube]O4CGBFRioOQ[/media]
If you don’t like combos like this…this is not your game, play something else…

just a couple more observations on the fortune loop:

• as ms. fortune tech improves, i believe players will have reliable ways to go from corner-to-corner and proceed into loop. i doubt corner-to-corner will be possible without using up a red spark but the loop doesn’t require any otgs itself so it doesn’t matter. what does this mean? if everyone starts doing blahblahblah -> j.mk xx j.214p into loop anywhere on the screen, this means ms. fortune will have without question the best abare in the game

• the headbutt xx omnomnom has another useful property: it pushes the opponent out slightly. the opponent also has no collision box while being nom’d. you can reset the opponent by launching them, standing them normally, or standing them with an iad xup (!), all while keeping your head in a sandwich position. if you’re at a tournament and the guy sitting next to you is mashing like crazy, you can exploit as much as you can vs noticing the guy’s falling asleep downbacking or holding some other cardinal direction on the stick. this also means that not only do you never have to do the full # of reps, the times in which you might choose to reset the opponent are completely unpredictable

tl;dr this is just the tip of the iceberg

I don’t know about you guys, but this is more or less what I more concern of. A corner loop might be scary, but the ability to do anywhere is something we might need to look into. I really want to see exactly how powerful this makes Ms.Fortune, and what it will be like in a tournament setting. Good news is that Mike Z replied to the said combo. The thing is that patches don’t come in a week, it’s takes a long process before we get a single patch. My suggestion is to optmized all of what Ms.Fortune could do with this.

[stickystaines]

The whole thing with that Fortune loop is that the omnomnom grabs lasts so long that it allows Fortune to do ANYTHING to start a chain and keep doing it, so its perfectly fine, but tediously long. So she can start with s.MK, then s.MP, s.MK, then s.LP, s.MP, s.MK, then crouching moves etc etc. Parasoul has a similar loop, but she can only link light attacks after, so she is limited to only her ground light chains (only 4) to continue the loop.

Unless you think about bringing assists into the equation, i cant really think of any other characters that could abuse the IPS as much as Fortune does, purely because her head allows it.

[KJunk]

Parasoul has a similar loop, but she can only link light attacks after, so she is limited to only her ground light chains (only 4) to continue the loop.

The flipside to Parasoul’s loop is that while it’s slightly shorter, her tear explosions do unscaled damage even after the combo has scaled back to 15%.

So you could use another character (Fortune, Valentine, Painwheel, whoever) to carry someone to the corner with their combo, then DHC into Parasoul, re-stand them, and do Parasoul’s full string with a bunch of unscaled tear explosions doing 450 each. That’s what’s possible, but whether or not we’ll see it in a real match anytime soon - who knows.

It looks like that is the game that Mike wants, so let it rock.

[DevilJin_01]

Skullgirls GD, Keepin' It Classy In Medici -- Now out in EU/AU!

Well, my intent’s not to forcefully eliminate anything yet. None of the changes that get made this early would be of the “OMG SO STRONG NERF NERF!” variety. I took a look at the script for Nom, and the comments say the head was supposed to go backward (in the direction of her body) both if you hit them and if it fully completes…then the variables right below that use the opponent’s facing direction, rather than hers. Given the amount of sleep I didn’t get during production, the fact that I d…

Mike Z’s explanation of the Fortune NOM.

If you start a combo with anything other than a jump-in, IPS goes to stage 2 (unwatched), and your next link makes it go to stage 3 (watched). If you start a combo with a throw or assist, that hit is stage 2, and your next hit is stage 3. Your next chain after that is stage 5, which is when IPS is allowed to trigger. During stage 5, if you link into (i.e. start a chain with) any attack you hit with during any watched section, IPS triggers.

Ahhh so that’s what that whole combo state thing in training mode means. Now it makes a lot more sense. I can just look at the combo state data to see what’s going on.

Maybe the NOM NOM could just raise the stage up higher so it doesn’t combo so long?

[98989898]

Because people quit MvC2 because of how broken that game was, that’s why it’s still being played for over a decade now.

I don’t really have an opinion on this thing, but this is a pretty ridiculous point to make. There are plenty more busted-ass games that got dropped for being busted. The specific way MvC2 developed over time meant it remained playable… that doesn’t mean it will happen to this game.

[DevilJin_01]

I don’t really have an opinion on this thing, but this is a pretty ridiculous point to make. There are plenty more busted-ass games that got dropped for being busted. The specific way MvC2 developed over time meant it remained playable… that doesn’t mean it will happen to this game.

I think the biggest part to that is that dying in one combo wasn’t the biggest part of the game and that there’s a lot of back and forth like a fighting game version of Basketball or Hockey. Even when people put you infinites they usually opted to reset and save meter unless it was like the last character or something. I think what people are afraid of is the long combos not giving enough of a back and forth action that made MVC2 so fun to play and watch for people.

[d3v]

I think the biggest part to that is that dying in one combo wasn’t the biggest part of the game and that there’s a lot of back and forth like a fighting game version of Basketball or Hockey. Even when people put you infinites they usually opted to reset and save meter unless it was like the last character or something. I think what people are afraid of is the long combos not giving enough of a back and forth action that made MVC2 so fun to play and watch for people.

The whole team factor helps mitigate the ToD nature of the game. In fact, long, damaging combos should arguably be a staple of tag team games that require team elimination for a win to counteract the slippery slope losing a character represents.

[Dr.Grammar]

This is not exactly right. You can see this with a simple Valentine combo: cr.LK, cr.MK, cr.HP xx j.MP, j.HP, air dash xx j.MP, j.HP.

If your description was right, then the first chain to launcher would be Step 2 (unwatched). The first jumping chain would be Step 3 (watched). The second jumping chain would be Step 5 (IPS) and the j.MP would activate IPS, but it doesn’t. You get 2 free chains at the start of a combo before IPS starts watching. This has nothing to do with jump-ins.

I think the reason for this is because stage 3 doesn’t end until one of the characters touches the ground. If the character being hit touches the ground, it goes to stage 4 (not sure what the significance of this stage is), and if the attacking character touches the ground, it goes to stage 5.

[Raas]

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. I’m not gonna say I told you so cause I most definitely did not, but I have to say I find the whole IPS system kinda awkward as a measure to do…anything. It really just enforced that you have to use a variety of moves to maintain a combo which the ability to restand people makes somewhat arbitrary. I’m sure Mike Z and co won’t let this go, but IMO it really does go to show that too much freedom will invariably cause something to muck up.

[Spooty_Whiteboy]

I think the reason for this is because stage 3 doesn’t end until one of the characters touches the ground. If the character being hit touches the ground, it goes to stage 4 (not sure what the significance of this stage is), and if the attacking character touches the ground, it goes to stage 5.

Oh. It all makes sense now. When I read your original post, it sounds like the you were saying the third chain always goes to Stage 5. That was the issue I was having. But, yes, you are right. It is because it doesn’t go to stage 5 until you hit the ground. BTW, Stage 4 just looks like a repeat of Stage 3 to me, but it usually starts with things like staggers and ground bounces.

[d3v]

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. I’m not gonna say I told you so cause I most definitely did not, but I have to say I find the whole IPS system kinda awkward as a measure to do…anything. It really just enforced that you have to use a variety of moves to maintain a combo which the ability to restand people makes somewhat arbitrary. I’m sure Mike Z and co won’t let this go, but IMO it really does go to show that too much freedom will invariably cause something to muck up.

I believe that was the point. Take out “true infinites” while letting everything else get through, as compared to stuff like hitsun scaling/proration which punishes all combos while at the same time, not really catching all infinites.

[DevilJin_01]

I believe that was the point. Take out “true infinites” while letting everything else get through, as compared to stuff like hitsun scaling/proration which punishes all combos while at the same time, not really catching all infinites.

Yeah I prefer this also. HSD is ass. Old games FTW.

I like how the combo system makes you feel like you’re playing an old game but then stops you if you legit for an infinite. Of course there’s going to be loops and long combos but…that’s old games.

People act like IPS was supposed to take out big combos…no it just allows you the freedom of old combos while stopping you from doing combos that can never stop. That’s the way it should be. It’s different yet it works and I’m sure will allow for some really creative ass combos in the future that we will only be able to see out of a game like this.

[FluffyM]

People got stabbed over throws in SF2

Looks like that’s a possibility in SG as well if you’d care to have a look at the “throws are cheap” threads. ;p

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. I’m not gonna say I told you so cause I most definitely did not, but I have to say I find the whole IPS system kinda awkward as a measure to do…anything. It really just enforced that you have to use a variety of moves to maintain a combo which the ability to restand people makes somewhat arbitrary. I’m sure Mike Z and co won’t let this go, but IMO it really does go to show that too much freedom will invariably cause something to muck up.

I don’t understand what’s happening here. Someone made a video of a combo that works because he is following the rules of the game. It’s not an exploit, apparently it’s working as intended, so what “mucked” up?

[deice_1]

Thanks Spooty Whiteboy and Dr. Grammar for the explanations, now I think I understand it a bit better.

I was having trouble understanding that combo because I didn’t realize a throw puts you forward in combo stages, which then nixes the first free jump (where IPS isn’t enforced yet, regardless of airdash cancels etc). My second misunderstanding was that I didn’t realize it watches all normals, but only enforces the first in a chain, I assumed that it also watched only chain starters. Now it makes perfect sense.

So, to fix my combo from before, I need to do something like:
Throw, cr.LK xx cr.MK xx cr.HP, jump, j.MK xx j.HK airdash (any jumping normal except MK/HK) xx j.HK

[98989898]

The thing with IPS is that being safe from infinites doesn’t mean you can just safely let everything combo. A game like MvC2 demonstrates a lot more cautious awareness of stuff that could cause infinites than Skullgirls does… sure they let stuff slip through the net but compared to XvSF it’s pretty tame. I’m not saying this is a problem at this point necessarily but the idea that you can just say “okay there’s no infinites, guaranteed, so let’s just let everything combo” is kinda silly.