How does the infinite prevention system (IPS) work?

Classic Fighting Games Skullgirls
1

A good question to ask. I know a good bit about how it works and there’s quotes from Mike Z that say it’s really easy to understand.

From the middle of this page >>>> http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Skullgirls/Game_Systems

[SIZE=17px]Infinite Detection[/SIZE]

I’m not sure why people think this IPS is complicated […] the rules are still simple to explain - “don’t start a chain with something you already hit with, and your combo is always legit.” You get 2 free sections before moves are even counted toward this limit (your first and second chains) and one more free section where moves are kept track of but the limit isn’t enforced yet (the entirety of your jump if you’re in the air, or your next chain if you aren’t). That’s it. You can determine exactly whether or not a combo is possible just by writing it out: “Did I already use s.LP? OK, can’t start another chain with that.” And if something doesn’t work, the hitsparks change color and you immediately know which move caused it. You also immediately know why, because the ONLY THING that would cause it is you having used that move before. [2]

"Don’t start a chain with something you’ve already hit with" is the only rule. The exception is your first jumpin sequence, first ground chain and first air combo.

It seems easy enough to understand after reading this but there have been some issues that have come up…

[media=youtube]3V9iAZJLV0w[/media]

Noticeably in this quick video I made above…where it seems hitting someone with an assist first makes the IPS kick in a lot quicker than it normally should. Same with comboing someone after a throw.

And then there’s this…

[media=youtube]Bbpn19gnde4[/media]

Quote from KJunk who brought it up in another thread

"The video isn’t mine, but I was able to get this going after just a little bit in training mode. I think it’s much easier than something like the lightning loop. And I’ve seen similar stuff for the other characters, so it’s not something unique to Ms. Fortune. It’s just the way the game is.

CopperDabbit was close to hitting these on the FinestKO stream yesterday, and I’m sure he’ll be hitting them consistently on stream soon enough, since this is still week 1.

The issue of a Ratio 1 killing a Ratio 2 character in one-hit aside (and maybe eventually killing a Ratio 3 character solo if he found some good DHCs…), the other issue I’m seeing here is the time involved. That’s a 45 second combo where the other guy sits there passively waiting with his thumb up his ass. That goes beyond your stylin Vanilla Dante combo levels of time here.

There are also some moves that do a standard amount of damage regardless of when they hit in a combo. Think Spencer Up-Grapples. One example is Parasoul’s Teardrop Explosions. And I’ve seen 9 or 10 of those thrown into one combo that was started by an entirely separate character than Parasoul. Get the hit with someone else -> carry to the corner -> DHC to Parasoul -> Re-stand -> IPS-legal loop a ton of times.

I think all of this is the kind of thing they were trying to avoid by putting in anti-loop measures in the game in the first place. I think they just need to tighten up the tolerance on it another degree or so."

Sooo…long story short…what’s going on here?

2

To clarify, I don’t think the Ms. Fortune combo in that video is showing a situation of the IPS misfiring, but rather showing that it’s not strict enough.

A repetitive 45 second combo that results in a dead character may not technically be an infinite, but the result is the same. Bored waiting, tons of meter built and a dead character.

I think Re-stands are also partially to blame here, as they make it far easier to set up these kinds of situations with a number of characters.

3

Yeah I think it’s something with some slight tweaks could be fixed up. I’m pretty sure part of the whole restand thing past the combo potential is to make it easier to set up mix ups instead of the whole figuring out which way they teched stuff. We’ll see how it goes.

4

I believe that it was mentioned that the IPS was so that people still could pull off long combos, provided they knew how, just not via infinites. Mike already laid out the mechanics and discussed the theory of how to push the system to its limits months ago, if you were expecting a game where combos were arbitrarily kept short, then this is the wrong game for you.

5

For painwheel:
j.mp qcb.k f.mk c.lk c.mk s.hp qcb.k f.mk will trigger the infinite prevention but j.mp qcb.k uf.mk c.lk c.mk s.hp qcb.k f.mk won’t. I find it interesting that a small direction change in a flight normal affects the infinite detection, considering it is the exact same list of moves.

6

watch combo video

complain combos are too long

/facepalm

7

Throws and assists seem to skip ahead to stage three of the IPS. I’m guessing they’re meant to count like a restand.

I don’t understand why the om nom loop works though.

8

this is what i don’t understand but i couldn’t explain it the way deviljin did.
waits for answers

9

They were also expressly intended to prevent “braindead loops” which that Fortune combo could easily qualify as. Not sure 'cause I don’t really know what Mike meant by “braindead loops”.

10

When a combo lasts for 45 seconds, involves the same special moves 10 times and achieves the goal of killing the character, the fact that it isn’t a true infinite is just semantics for most people.

And whether or not the game’s to my taste doesn’t matter. I’m saying I think combos like this go against the spirit of what was attempted by the infinite protection system he developed.

I already pointed out that the combo is practical and was seen in part on a Day 4 tournament stream.

11

XvsSF: Magneto’s st.lk xx hyper grav xx infinity, Storm’s corner st.hk xx super jump, j.hp while holding up x infinity, Iron Man’s infinite in MvC2.

A long combo full of tight strings is a lot different from say…Iron Man infinite in MvC2, x-factor infinites, Gambit lp, lk. It isn’t really semantics to say I did this long ass combo that kills with I found an infinite that I didn’t drop. On the real though the best we can do for Mike Z is find shit like this because: a) it would make him happy in a sort of weird way, b) it would give him time to try fix it and drop it into the same patch that has all the other nonsense they are already working on.

12

Parasoul’s teardrop loop is still droppable and the loop is easier and harder on specific characters. Not sure about the Ms. Fortune combo example in the OP though.

In the interview Mike Z on WSRK though he said theres already one patch already on the way guaranteed and that certifying a patch takes some time to go through Microsoft. So he could know about stuff like this already.

I don’t think it’ll drown out the game completely or anything like that though, for one you still gotta get your opponent to the corner, get by assists/zoning, and play the match out and actually land the hit which is decided by the players: this isn’t Wolvie divekick bad(at least maybe not yet).

13

It works because there is a new normal starting the next set of chains after each omnomnom.

It’s not an infinite because you’re using a different normal for each chain.

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Skullgirls/Game_Systems

“Don’t start a chain with something you’ve already hit with” is the only rule. The exception is your first jumpin sequence, first ground chain and first air combo. [3]

14

The more I see stuff with abusing IPS, the uneasier I get about the future, but I think the direction the game is going is fine. Mike_Z made a comment that he’s fine with ToD combos as long as they aren’t either like meterless, or as they aren’t the same thing over and over and over again. This was a system that was more than likely very well thought out, and chances are they’re fine with this stuff. I am too, just… Wow.

15

IPS was developed so that people could still pull off long combos and big damage without there being true infinites. The problem with hitstun scaling and other systems was that those systems punished all kinds of combos while still not totally removing infinites.

When I see stuff like that, I’m reminded that the game is still somewhat based on MvC2.

16

You have Dr. Strange in your avatar which probably means you play MvC3. Any way you feel about the future of this particular game is more or less voided because characters in that game can deal retard damage without much of an executional barrier. You’re gonna feel uneasy about the future of a game where you need to have good execution to deal good damage? Man…get the fuck out of here with that shit.

17

just a couple more observations on the fortune loop:

  • as ms. fortune tech improves, i believe players will have reliable ways to go from corner-to-corner and proceed into loop. i doubt corner-to-corner will be possible without using up a red spark but the loop doesn’t require any otgs itself so it doesn’t matter. what does this mean? if everyone starts doing blahblahblah -> j.mk xx j.214p into loop anywhere on the screen, this means ms. fortune will have without question the best abare in the game

  • the headbutt xx omnomnom has another useful property: it pushes the opponent out slightly. the opponent also has no collision box while being nom’d. you can reset the opponent by launching them, standing them normally, or standing them with an iad xup (!), all while keeping your head in a sandwich position. if you’re at a tournament and the guy sitting next to you is mashing like crazy, you can exploit as much as you can vs noticing the guy’s falling asleep downbacking or holding some other cardinal direction on the stick. this also means that not only do you never have to do the full # of reps, the times in which you might choose to reset the opponent are completely unpredictable

tl;dr this is just the tip of the iceberg

18

Wow, talk about mad. First of all, the Doctor Strange avatar is a glitch with this site, because all my other Gravatar-supported sites display Painwheel. Second, I played Ultimate Marvel, yes. I was not by any means a fan of the game, I just enjoyed taking down herpaderp Weskers with highly technical Strange combos. It felt rewarding.

I’m not saying I want Skullgirls to be like Marvel or something, I’m saying that KJunk has has pretty much confirmed what the combo looks like: easy damage. You should have to spend hours practicing combos to land something even close to that damage in week 1, not basically cancel ground series into OMNOMNOM. All I’m saying is that I don’t want this to turn into a Marvel-fest where everything ToD’s. Geez.

19

After reading this…it kinda reminds me of how amazing it was that MVC2 was such a reset, mix up, back and forth fest that made everyone go crazy for it (even if they didn’t play it). In a game where it was definitely possible to TOD people, at high level play often enough people would go for the resets and even during infinites sometimes people would just use them to build meter, stop then go for a reset. Marvel 2 is probably the best accidentally great fighting game ever because competitively it somehow came perfectly into place even with the tiers and infinites and everything.

Ideally that’s the way I would like this game to go. Hopefully the IPS doing a good job of allowing creative combos that require work that don’t have the same 3 normals over and over again.

We’ll see how it goes.

20

Try doing it