Thanks for this thread, exactly what I was looking for.
Edit: If I’m not totally misunderstanding things, IPS is supposed to prevent loops specifically, not necessarily infinites, it’s just that the large majority of infinites are loops so by extension it eliminates most of them.
If someone figures out an original, inventive combo that requires difficult execution and gets a TOD out of it, I think that’s fair game, good for them. As long as it’s not something any schmo can do whenever they want.
I was hoping the game didn’t have combos like this, but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised since it plays like Marvel 2. There’s just nothing FUN about getting caught in a half-minute long combo, in my personal opinion.
Whether he played MVC3 or not doesn’t matter because we’re discussing the Skullgirls IPS, not his personal history/feeling of fighting games. Playing a game doesn’t mean you support every design decision of that game. Talk about his points, not him personally.
Not that he did, but I feel like referencing and making comparisons to other games isn’t wrong at all in this discussion because Skullgirls draws so heavily from past games, and that’s what we have to look to for info on how things work at a tournament level.
That Ms. Fortune combo is very long and detailed, but it’s not technically difficult. The windows to perform the different sections are all lenient because of the absence of hit-stun deterioration. You’re not even accounting for character weight or juggling properties for most of it, since they remain grounded most of the time. That’s so many fewer dimensions of difficulty than something like even a MvC2 Ironman Infinite. We see harder less practical stuff happening on stream in other games, so I have no reason to think this won’t become commonplace in a few weeks or months.
If repetitive 45 second TOD combos are acceptable under the IPS and what the game should look like at high-level play, I think people haven’t thought through why they want what they want. I get that people want honest combos, and they want a place where they can put in time and see legit return on their hard work. But try and think about what combos are supposed to be.
A combo should reward someone for making or capitalizing on an opportunity. It should be an executional gut check on their nerves and recognition. It should last long enough to give them time to be rewarded if they’re a technical or creative player. ** But then it needs to get back to the real action of a fighting game : the back and forth series of conflicting decisions from both players.** You play against other people for that interaction. If I want to kick back and enjoy 45s or minute long combos, the training dummy is just fine for that.
That’s why some of the hypest moments in MVC2 were fast series of resets. By comparison after you see the Iron Man infinite a few times in person, it gets stale for everyone but the person doing it.
Overall I think it’s something that Reverge Labs should work at on their own after seeing what comes about. I don’t think it’s something that we need to knee jerk go after or anything like that. Just let it play like an old game and I’m sure Mike Z and the others can make an informed decision about how to fix based on that (if they so feel it’s that bad to begin with).
I know some people are talking about how they’ve already got pretty consistent TOD combos with 2 character teams at what not so…I wanna see it play out first.
This, 100 times this. There’s no fun to making one mistake and paying for it for 45 seconds. Everytime I play MvC3 I feel like I’m watching a really boring combo movie, and even when it comes time to defend from a reset I’m so bored that I get caught and it starts over.
I’ll forever be a scrub, but I just hope something is done to keep the integrity of the game. I’m not saying change the IPS, but maybe Mike Z has something up his sleeve. I know there are some negative edge issues with Fortune’s head, though I’m not 100% sure if that comes into play in this combo (if so, this will probably be fixed soon).
Yeah I don’t think that will be impossibly hard to fix. The faster people discover stuff the faster it can get around to being fixed.
I mean you’re going to have to expect to regularly be in a combo state for at least 7 to 10 seconds or more with the way the combo system works in these types of games. If you’re looking for games where you’re only put in combos for 2 or 3 seconds and only specific moves will convert into those combo states…you pretty much have to find a different game. Either that or just be one of those guys that hates the combo system but plays it any way just to be masochistic and have a fun time or whatever.
If you feel yourself getting bored over a fighting game at any point, unless it’s the only game the people around you or online will play just find something else to play. That’s what’s good about having a variety of games now. You don’t have to play what you don’t like.
You guys keep acting like this game is going to turn into Hokuto No Ken. What’s funny about this is that I doubt half the people in the thread have played HnK to bitch about a game turning into that. The combos in this game are still hard and it is not guaranteed that all openings will lead to ToD’s.
Stop acting like the sky is falling. We keep getting cool as shit getting posted. Just chill.
Don’t interpret my posts as me being salty, I’m not. Touch of death sucks, but if I get caught in it it’s my fault and I should be congratulating my opponent.
It’s not easy to open up an opponent with a good defense and fundamentals anyway.
Now, if someone figures out how to get this combo off of a throw… salt may or may not commence.
Yeah even if it turned into HnK I wouldn’t mind too much cuz that game is fun as shit and no character is really that bad in that game even amongst the best characters. Seeing Jagi tear up on top tiers is crazy shit.
I mean there’s a lot of things that can be done. Since this is an indie game made by a guy who basically posts on the forums there’s a lot of small things that can be changed to account. If combos are doing too much damage (IPS abiding combos from Size 2 and Size 3 teams still converting into TOD’s etc.) then Mike could just do something like raise the health points of size 2 and 3 teams accordingly so the matches will last longer.
One of the problems that gets people angry about Marvel 3 is that the damage is just way too high off of basic combos and if you want to kill somebody you can just press 4 buttons and get a big meter boost per combo on top of that. The hit confirms are pretty damned easy for a lot of the better characters and generally anyone with huge hit boxes. The character specifics for combos are pretty minute also compared to this game. The game could really use a health boost among the cast for the characters or something ATM.
It will be easier to do with Skullgirls though since characters don’t have THEIR OWN health. Everyone character has a base health and it only changes depending on which size they are and which size they are versing.
I see this game getting balanced in a nice mix of old school and new school which I really respect.
That’s fine. It was more of a general comment and well…as long as you have fun that’s what counts most.
The most important bit about long combos is actually this:
Cerebella uses different ground strings to launcher in that combo, finding different air chains that let her land and keep the combo going. She does this so many times that she actually runs herself out of air normals for the combo. At the end there’s no way for her hit with any air normal without triggering IPS. Getting 6 air chains requires doing things like first using j.HP and j.HK as 1 move chains, meaning messing up anything early and “wasting” a button would break the combo later on.
If making combos that long requires that much careful planning, use of every normal move the character has, and lets you burst out and kill their momentum if your opponent messes up a single button input at any point in the combo, what’s left to complain about?
First off, I’m no Ms Fortune main so I’m not too familiar with her mechanics, or the notation of the combo. Honestly, it seems harder than I expected (just the head loops), but there are certainly no just-frame links or difficult technical aspects. Just as KJunk said, a ton of inputs. Still a little ridiculous damage in my opinion, but I’m not a proper judge of that since the game hasn’t even been out a week.
bro, but the combos on hnk arent as easy as they seem to be, actually they are quite hard to do, outside rei who has practical setups, every dribbling infinite is very situational
Combos that require skill, execution and practice.
Btw I’m not saying the Ms. Fortune combo up there isn’t ‘honest’ - it’s definitely not easy. But it is very doable, and I’m thinking it’s too much like an infinite because it’s TOD-effective, repetitive and boring.
I really like the idea/implementation of the IPS so far. Every optimized combo would showcase the character’s entire range of moves. I just wish it was more strict.
My suggestion would be to patch out easy re-stands and limit the number of special move repetitions to 2 or 3. So you get 2 or 3 OMNOMNOM’s in a combo, not 9.