How do you beat El Fuerte?

[ILL_BILL]

@inertia:

Half of what you said was true, but a lot of it sounded a little misinformed.

hey paper, just played a couple sets vs you and i’d like to chime in

ryu’s best option is to rush it down vs fuerte. forget your normal zoning with fireballs and predictive c.mks, fuerte will dance around all that bullshit all day and build free ultra off your fireballs. simply walk forward until fuerte has gone into the corner, focusing any splash/sweep attempts, jumping back to ward off the run throw, and so on. counter all his options until he’s in the corner, then begin your normal corner offense, keeping in mind that fuerte’s ultra is an excellent reversal.

This isnt a BAD idea, but its considerably easier said than done. Especially since the tactic youre using here is far more obvious to the fuerte player than fuertes mixups are to the Ryu player. In essence, pressuring fuerte is the way to go, but the specific advice youre giving doesn’t really work as well as you make it seem

all of fuerte’s damage comes off oki, punishing your slow specials on reaction, and keeping you out of your comfort zone with constant 50/50’s. don’t lose your shit. remember, you’re ryu, you have plenty of health to spare, and you only need to hit fuerte like 5 times before he croaks. react to fuerte late, he has plenty of ways to bait and punish you for 40 percent life or more. don’t predict, react. and if you’re blocking, you’re doing it wrong. rush fuerte down!

Agree for the most part. Turtling isn’t necessarily a bad move, depending on what your opponent is doing. Its hard to rush fuerte if he has the momentum.

when you get knocked down, remember that fuerte has 2 basic options: he can try to throw you, or he can try to hit you. watch fuerte closely right before he gets up. if he’s running backwards, a tortilla is most likely to follow, hold up-back, then either jump back again to get away from the immediately following tortilla attempt, or start a focus to beat the splash.

Good advice if youre playing an absolute beginner Fuerte. Otherwise, its not really applicable. Fuerte has a hell of a lot more that he can do with a knockdown. A HELL of a lot more. And your counter for the tortilla isnt going to work against a safe tortilla. If you jump away from that shit, you just gifted fuerte a free ultra.

if he runs toward you, he’s probably trying to hit you, as the fajita buster is not very safe, and comes out slowly. as such, either block correctly (high normal, high crossup, low), or start a focus and quickly dash cancel it towards fuerte, punishing with c.hp/c.lp xx whatever. if you’ve timed the focus correctly, it should come out facing the correct side and you’ll be able to hit fuerte with the focus every time. not necessarily with lvl 2, but at least a lvl 1 hit, then dash back and reset your rushdown spacing.

Similarly, this is bottom level fuerte play. And your counters are fine against bottom level fuerte, otherwise, this advice isn’t good.

on knockdown, start oki with throws (beat ex run kara cancel ex run backwards), meaty low short into tick (the low short will get soaked up by ex run cancel ex run, but you’ll recover fast enough to jump back c.mk to beat the tortilla, focus to avoid the splash, etc), and, when you’ve got fuerte scared into standing still and teching after a knockdown, ex tatsu.

Not gonna lie. This is a pain to deal with as fuerte, although, throwing out the EX tatsu when hes scared probably isnt going to be the best option.

safe jump is also an excellent tool vs fuerte, as it beats the reversal ultra (neutral jump after jumping attack recovery to avoid it) as well as ex guac (avoids it, punish with walk forward, cmk xx tatsu). buffer a hk tatsu into your safe jump to beat the ex runs and back dashes.

Safe jump is a great tool here. No arguments from me, although i would think twice about buffering the HK tatsu. Again you probably have better options.

to sum up – keep moving forward, don’t use slow specials/normals (and every normal is slow compared to fuerte’s options), and don’t lose your shit. watch fuerte closely, you can see the animation for tortilla come out, and it’s very different to that of splash/sweep. and when you get a knockdown, keep the momentum up!

1st sentence is great. As for the tortilla animation thing, its true, but its much harder for anyone to react to without a pre-emptive guess than you make it seem. The only exception would be if its been done from hell far away, which is a bizarre move by the fuerte player.

[inertia]

This isnt a BAD idea, but its considerably easier said than done. Especially since the tactic youre using here is far more obvious to the fuerte player than fuertes mixups are to the Ryu player. In essence, pressuring fuerte is the way to go, but the specific advice youre giving doesn’t really work as well as you make it seem

it does, actually. i’m not one for theory fighter, this is all shit i picked up from playing people and watching matchup videos. “obvious”? yeah, i suppose walking forward is obvious. well done you. now try to counter it.

i’m not going to go into every hard counter for every fuerte trick, that’s up to the individual player to learn. this is an outline for a general idea of how to approach fuerte.

Good advice if youre playing an absolute beginner Fuerte. Otherwise, its not really applicable. Fuerte has a hell of a lot more that he can do with a knockdown. A HELL of a lot more. And your counter for the tortilla isnt going to work against a safe tortilla. If you jump away from that shit, you just gifted fuerte a free ultra.

this made me rofl. please, tell me, what can fuerte do other than attempt to hit you with a physical attack or some kind of throw on your wakeup?

and no, i didn’t gift fuerte a free ultra. i’m ryu, and i have ex tatsu to float/beat your ultra.

Similarly, this is bottom level fuerte play. And your counters are fine against bottom level fuerte, otherwise, this advice isn’t good.

i’d love to play your fuerte, sounds like you’ve really got next level shit. so what is it? you don’t use run/backrun for oki? what, run stop crossup fierce? please, tell me about your fuerte technology. and how it doesn’t involve trying to throw or hit the opponent.

Safe jump is a great tool here. No arguments from me, although i would think twice about buffering the HK tatsu. Again you probably have better options.

fine, what are they? mine beats/avoids most/all of your wakeup options, but apparently you think there’s a better option.

1st sentence is great. As for the tortilla animation thing, its true, but its much harder for anyone to react to without a pre-emptive guess than you make it seem. The only exception would be if its been done from hell far away, which is a bizarre move by the fuerte player.

“it’s hard” is not a legitimate excuse not to do something. and that seems to be your reasoning behind why my strategy is ass.

your post was fucking fluff, man. if you’re going to critique me, at least give me some alternatives/offer me some proof as to why my advice is bullshit.

[Paper]

He’s right, most of what you said is how to beat pretty basic fuertes.

On wake up we have a bunch of attacks, not to mention the capability of baiting something out and punishing it. Simplified obviously all we have are high and low attacks (more specifically block strings, straight slides for knockdowns, trickey overheads [Even going as far as to using standing far :hk: to combat a crouch block / counter-hit] and grabs [tortillia, fajita, normal grabs])

But yes BASICALLY we can only grab, attack, or do nothing / bait on your wake up.

Tbh I win a lot with only basics against inertia- I can tell he doesn’t play a lot of Fuertes, but everything he has said is helpful not any of it is detrimental knowledge and everyone should give him a big thanks for his in depth post from his personal experience with Fuertes.

In the end we have only a few options (hit, grab, bait) it gets more complicated when they are mixed up quickly by somebody with excellent execution and mind games. You can’t make a thread explaining how to beat fuerte’s mind games so what were you expecting from Inertia-'s post?

[inertia]

this is a how to beat fuerte thread, so i left out all the basic shit about defending blockstrings/teching throws late so as not to be baited by a floating normal (rose cl s.mk, fuerte far hk). none of that is fuerte specific. countering run spam is.

as for the advanced stuff, fine, i’ll watch tkd/tetsu’s wakeup game

[media=youtube]15BW0UA0nxw[/media]

first untechable knockdown - meaty slide that was done poorly and jumped out of
second - empty fake crossup jump, throw (basic late option select tech gets you out of this)
third - meaty f+mk overhead
fourth - meaty hk
fifth - empty crossup jump, throw

zero run pressure, so you guys were right. but tkd only does all that shit because daigo knows all the counters to the run nonsense, which is what i posted.

[ILL_BILL]

Gah. Having conversations on the internet is hard.

I wasn’t trying to belittle you bro, and im sorry if it came off like that. Nor was i calling your advice ‘bullshit’. It works. I said that numerous times. But NOT against fuerte’s who aren’t randomly spamming shit and hoping it hits.

And yea, i re-read my post, and youre right, i didn’t give any concrete examples. All im trying to get at is that, as a starter, your post was fantastic, and im sure a lot of people will find it immmensely helpful, since the fuerte match is pretty alien to a large portion of the playerbase. I shouldve said that more, if i had done i wouldn’t have provoked any aggression. (Honestly was not my intention) But I do feel that i need to stress that its NOT going to work against a fuerte that is using all his tools. (feints mostly. f.mk crossups, s.hk etc.) You dont need to be Daigo to catch on to Fuerte’s standard shit pretty quickly. And as this is a thread for helping people beat fuerte, they need to know that they have to tread carefully, or the fuerte player is going to bait the obvious counter, and subsequently counter that himself. (Which is what i meant with the whole ‘walking forward being obvious’ thing.) The Fuerte match is one where you need to either a) be thinking constantly or b) be mashing like fuck in order to have relative success.

Thats why i love the character, because if the opponent goes with option a, then our less conventional mixups become more effective, and option b is a fucking terrible idea.

I WOULD however, like to address this, just so we’re clear.

when you get knocked down, remember that fuerte has 2 basic options: he can try to throw you, or he can try to hit you. watch fuerte closely right before he gets up. if he’s running backwards, a tortilla is most likely to follow, hold up-back, then either jump back again to get away from the immediately following tortilla attempt, or start a focus to beat the splash.

Your wording here lead me to believe that the ‘hit or throw’ options you were talking about were only the options off of his run. So forgive me if my post ‘made you rofl’, but you weren’t particularly clear. And im sticking by my post, based on the context in which i originally read yours.

Your comment about you having an EX tatsu was right on the money though. For some reason i read ‘jump back again’ as ‘jump back hk again’. So feel free to discount the whole ‘free ultra’ thing due to me being apparently blind.

But yea. Sorry if i came across like a douche. I seriously didn’t intend it that way.

[IIPeru]

This thread is still pointless lolz.

EDIT: Sorry not pointless it has a point its just funny.

[Paper]

Yayyyy its a sticky!

[Densuo]

Lol. Well there’s some good stuff here to put on the matchup thread. I’ve been looking for an excuse to update it.

Good stuff El Papel

[HawkinsT]

Have to say I disagree with the seth advice, I use jump back fierce on reaction all the time to zone elf’s - jump back at the last minute and if they do anything other than stop/continue running you can punish it with this.

tanden engine will suck elf out of his run for a free combo, and legs will also catch elf out of his run (ex legs will do the same but also with invincibility), as will seths super and ultra. Elf’s wall jump is punishable on reaction by srk > combo, super and ultra

Both srk and spd beat a large number of elf’s end of run options and seths teleport can quite effectively get him out of mixups.

While I haven’t really played any elf’s of note, just random g1/4000bp players online, this match up does feel quite strongly in seth’s favour to me at about 6.5-3.5 (but like I just said this is only from my own, limited experience). I think of the seth matchup a bit like the gief matchup though - just elf is a bit better at getting in. Seth should be trying to keep elf at full screen and punishing elfs attempts to get in, elf should be trying to lock seth in the corner, trying to catch any attempts by seth to wall jump out (which is in seths interest to try and do) with his guacamole slew, and keeping the pressure on. Also rsf is a very important tool for elf in this match seeing as seth has only 750 stun (same as his health).

Best ways for elf to get close to seth I think are run > stop > guacamole slew to bait seths jumping fierce - this move seems to have fast recovery for elf so afaik it’s hard to punish if whiffed. And also elf’s ex run, which remember tanden and legs will suck/hit you out of, so I guess with this a lot of run stop fakery is good trying to bait seth in to one of these moves (if he does legs and its blocked you will be at enough frame advantage for rsf I think). tanden whiffing is also the time you want to be getting in close with wall jump.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the match up, would be interesting to hear an elf players perspective on this.

[Paper]

Have to say I disagree with the seth advice, I use jump back fierce on reaction all the time to zone elf’s - jump back at the last minute and if they do anything other than stop/continue running you can punish it with this.

tanden engine will suck elf out of his run for a free combo, and legs will also catch elf out of his run (ex legs will do the same but also with invincibility), as will seths super and ultra. Elf’s wall jump is punishable on reaction by srk > combo, super and ultra

Both srk and spd beat a large number of elf’s end of run options and seths teleport can quite effectively get him out of mixups.

While I haven’t really played any elf’s of note, just random g1/4000bp players online, this match up does feel quite strongly in seth’s favour to me at about 6.5-3.5 (but like I just said this is only from my own, limited experience). I think of the seth matchup a bit like the gief matchup though - just elf is a bit better at getting in. Seth should be trying to keep elf at full screen and punishing elfs attempts to get in, elf should be trying to lock seth in the corner, trying to catch any attempts by seth to wall jump out (which is in seths interest to try and do) with his guacamole slew, and keeping the pressure on. Also rsf is a very important tool for elf in this match seeing as seth has only 750 stun (same as his health).

Best ways for elf to get close to seth I think are run > stop > guacamole slew to bait seths jumping fierce - this move seems to have fast recovery for elf so afaik it’s hard to punish if whiffed. And also elf’s ex run, which remember tanden and legs will suck/hit you out of, so I guess with this a lot of run stop fakery is good trying to bait seth in to one of these moves (if he does legs and its blocked you will be at enough frame advantage for rsf I think). tanden whiffing is also the time you want to be getting in close with wall jump.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the match up, would be interesting to hear an elf players perspective on this.

Very interesting I don’t know any seth’s except for Onlinetony, and since he plays Fuerte as well maybe I should get his input on this subject.

Personally I never have trouble with Seths, It seems like if I guess correctly once that seth is done for. One RSF combo and you’re gone.

I’ll be adding your post to the Seth section, thank you for your help.

[Sacojericho]

HawkinsT has said the exact way seth would deal with ELF. My friend mains seth very well and does exactly how he has mentioned it and agree with his 6.5:3.5 ratio. The matchup is very tricky to fight against and not very run friendly with or without meter. I’m going to try his advice the next time I train with him since he’s the only matchup I still have problems with.

On a side note I still think Akuma is a bitch

[Paper]

HawkinsT has said the exact way seth would deal with ELF. My friend mains seth very well and does exactly how he has mentioned it and agree with his 6.5:3.5 ratio. The matchup is very tricky to fight against and not very run friendly with or without meter. I’m going to try his advice the next time I train with him since he’s the only matchup I still have problems with.

On a side note I still think Akuma is a bitch

Very good Akumas are a scary sight indeed.

I didn’t have much problem with Ken I’s Akuma but Flashmetroid completely dominated me, rushing me to the corner and putting on the far HK pressure before I had meter.

[IIPeru]

Very good Akumas are a scary sight indeed.

I didn’t have much problem with Ken I’s Akuma but Flashmetroid completely dominated me, rushing me to the corner and putting on the far HK pressure before I had meter.

Cr mk stuffs akumas far hk its fun.

[El_Twelve]

Alright, a good Zangief did this to me a few days ago.

I did standing HK from about his max sweep range. He focused the first hit, backdash cancelled so the second hit whiff, then hit me with LP SPD. Made me think twice about spamming HKs.

[Densuo]

Well, shit. That musta sucked.

[Paper]

Well, shit. That musta sucked.

Ever get tachi 720’ed out of a full screen ex Q bomb?

:smokin: sucks.

[Densuo]

The arf arf is tachi?

Worse thing that happened to me was getting hit with that time frame where fuerte won’t do actions on run when going from back to forward run. He didn’t respond for an eternity then I got dp fadc ultra

[El_Twelve]

Tachi 720 means Gief does his Ultra from just standing there. I’ve only ever had a tachi done to me once in 3rd Strike and it is one of the scariest things in the game.

By the way, now that there are more fuerte players around, we might need “How to beat Fuerte with Fuerte.”

My bit, it’s really hard to get in on Fuerte because he can back run splash/tortilla practically anything you throw at him. You don’t want to get too liberal with Guacs either because Quesadilla is waiting for you. The only thing I’ve been able to do is slowly advance and see if I can bait something to punish.

Once you get the knockdown though, I always just get right up close and mix up with LP, throw, f + MK and slide. Usually taking to the air just gives your opponent a getaway with EX Guac, so you take away that option by staying grounded. At least if you’re threatening throws, he’ll be wary of being grabbed out of EX Run so it ends up slightly in your favour.

Also, an oddity that a friend taught me. If your opponent does mid range Tortilla on you and you see it coming, Ultra whiffs if you hold back. I got it to land by holding forward(even though the opponent Fuerte was practically in my face), but this might need more testing.

[FuriousJodo]

Tortilla wins the match, really when you get down to it if you are playing seriously FUerte/Fuerte is a boring ass match because it’s basically get a bit o damage and then turtle.

[m1northreat]

I don’t agree with what your saying about Fuerte’s who can’t RSF. I happened to beat nestor one of the better players in this area. He has beaten justin wong in CvS2 and is the best around in MA. I am the fuerte in this video and I had been successful in beating him in a tourney match and I couldn’t RSF. Here is the video to prove it.

[media=youtube]pwtoZr23QtU[/media]

What I am saying to everybody who plays against any fuerte is this DON’T UNDER ESTIMATE!!

i noticed at 5:04 you end up using the splash invincibility frames to deny sagats TU. he did it very late wen sagats TU animation has already started! has anyone messed with this? hard to time or anything?