How do throws exactly work in HD Remix?

I’ve seen throws beat out normals and specials even during their attack frames, what’s going on here? I heard that throws come out instantly, and there are no startup frames. What are the exact throw mechanics?

For example as Fei I blocked a sonic boom and then throw out a standing fierce to hit a guile walking up to me only to be thrown out of the attack. What feasible options does a player have to counter throws? The only thing I’ve found that works is quickly throwing jabs but I don’t see what benefits come out of that.

the jabs stop you from being thrown. thats the benefit of them. if you’ve played any street fighter 2 game before the throws really shouldn’t be much different.

Here is a quick long guide to SFHD throw properties! :smile:

(The two basic types of throws are normal (or regular) throws and command throws. If I write just “throw,” I usually mean all throws. I tried to remember to write in exceptions for command throws as needed, or write “normal throw” or “regular throw” when I mean to refer to those exclusively.)

Throws can be done by pressing towards or away on the joystick within range, and the fierce punch button. Some characters can also throw with any combination of the strong, forward, and roundhouse buttons. Air throws are done in the same way.

  • I think you can also press up for some airthrows.

Command throws require some sort of “special attack” joystick motion followed by any punch button.

  • The exception is Akuma’s super, which has its own specific input.

Each throw has a different range at which it can be used. This is a maximum distance that the opponent can be to you for the throw to be successful.

  • I don’t know it this goes by vulnerability hitboxes or just by character “centers.”

Throws come out (occur) instantaneously; they have zero startup time.

You can throw any time that you are in the standing state. Air throws require that you are in the middle of a jump, you are not currently executing any sort of attack, and you haven’t been hit during that jump.

  • I’m not sure if you can do an (early) attack in the air, recover from it before you land, and then do an air throw during the same jump.

You can throw someone who is standing or crouching, blocking high or low, or who is in the middle of a move on the ground.

  • Two exceptions to that: 1, you cannot throw someone who is currently within the invincibility time of a special or super move that has a period of invincibility. 2, Akuma’s super is uniquely unable to throw someone during their jump-startup. Jump-startup is the very short period of time (3-5 frames I think, depends on the character) where they’ve already pressed up (or up-towards or up-away), and they are still standing and haven’t left the ground yet, but they will jump at the end of that startup time.

You cannot throw someone who is: in blockstun, in hitstun, or airborne (exception being air throws, where you must also be airborne). Note that there are a couple moves, and sometimes just parts (time-wise) of moves where the character does appear to leave the ground but they are still technically on the ground.

  • The exception is air throws, which can only be done on opponents who are in midair–whether they’re currently in the middle of a move or not–and have not yet been hit during their jump.

  • The exception to that exception is Vega’s walldive airthrow, which works successfully whether the opponent is on the ground or not.

When someone is thrown with a normal throw, if they press either towards or away and either strong, fierce, forward kick, or roundhouse (note that these are all commands for doing their own normal throw) within 13 frames of when their attacker’s throw took effect, they can “Tech Hit,” or soften it. That is, they will land on their feet rather than being knocked down, and they will only take half damage. Note that command throws cannot be softened.

(Regular) throws are considered to have no recovery because if they are unsuccessful, you just see an attack come out (usually a normal attack, or a command attack if applicable, or for Vega’s walldive attack for a missed walldive throw). In terms of game mechanics, the successful throw input beats any normal attack or command attack inputs. Of course, the attack obviously comes out only if you were already in a state where doing the attack was possible. Note that these “accidental” attacks do have their recovery time.

  • The exception is that some command throws do actually have “whiff” animations. As they, like all throws, have no startup time, you only see these animations when the throw misses; the opponent was not within range, or was in an unthrowable state. Note that these animations are just a visual representation of its recovery time; the throw itself only has a chance of occuring on the first frame. That is, when you try throwing unsuccessfully and get a whiff animation, if the opponent becomes throwable (enters the range or changes to a now-throwable state) the throw still does not happen. - The exception to that is Akuma’s super, which remains “active” (able to throw) for an extended period of time, not just the first frame.

If a throw’s input is overlapped by the input for a special attack, the special attack will “come out” instead of the throw. Example: Ryu’s down down-toward toward and fierce punch within his throw range will give a fireball instead of a throw. Note that this is why command throws will come out over (regular) ones when applicable.

  • The exception to this is command throws, which are considered special attacks, and as such follow the ordered list of preference of each character for determining which special attack occurs when the inputs for multiple special attacks have overlapped. Example: Zangief’s lariats happen over his SPD which happen over the banishing fist.

Note that any of a character’s cancelable normal can be cancelled into a command throw, just like any other attack.

A throw will never trade with or beat any active attack. If an opponent’s attack hits you on the same frame that you would’ve otherwise successfully thrown your oponent, the attack wins and no throw occurs.

  • The exception to that is Akuma’s super, which has a a lot of invincibility time. In this case, it will “beat” all sorts of attacks simply because they cannot hit hit at all during that period of time.

If two players execute a throw against each other on the same frame where they would both be successful, the game randomly chooses which one actually gets the throw.

  • I believe he exception to this is command throws. If a command throw and a normal throw are executed against each other simultaneously, the command throw will always win.
  • I think that the determination is also random when two command throws occur simultaneously, but I’m not positive. There maayyyy be a pecking order.

Semi-relevant note: When two buttons are used simultaneously, each of which would result in the same class of move (two normals, two regular throws, two command attacks, whatever), there is a pecking-order they all follow of which will actually occur and which is ignored.
*I have no idea what the order actually is. Example, may not even be correct: You press jab and short at the same time, the jab occurs instead of the short. You press strong and fierce at the same time, the strong occurs and the jab does not. Remember, however, that if they would result in two different classes of moves, the “higher” class occurs instead: normal attack > command attack [ (successful) normal throw > special attack (including command throws) > super combo.

With the exception of any obvious changes (like Akuma’s super), all of this should apply exactly to vanilla ST as well. Actually, I beliiiieve that this is universal for all SF2 games.

Anything I didn’t feel sure about was marked with an asterisk. Any help with these uncertainties or corrections to shit I’m just plain wrong about are welcome and appreciated.

The only thing I’d add is that some moves just cannot be thrown at certain periods. This happens when the move goes airborne (like a Forward Blanka Hop) or if the move is invincible. So even though the first few frames of a Ryu Dragon Punch ARE technically still on the ground, you cannot throw it because Ryu is invincible.

So to answer you question, spmig, the best way to counter a Throw is with your best Special move with the most invincibility. So if you are Fei Long and you block the Sonic Boom and Guile comes a-runnin’, do the Flame Kick after your Block ends. If you get it out, Guile cannot throw you and will eat the Flame Kicks.

Of course, this is easier said than done, and this is where we all go into Reversals and Piano Methods and such. But for now, basically, your two best options are to try and Throw first or to do a Special Move like Fei’s Flame Kicks. Using Normal moves will almost never work if the opponent times the throw well. The benefit to trying to Throw yourself is that if you are too late, you’ll at least Tech the throw. But the bad part of it is that it’s really a timing game. I used to call it a “Jeopardy Game” and whomever hit the button first gets to question the answer first. The benefit of the Reversal is that, if you timed it right, you WIN. There is no ands, ifs, or buts about it. The Special Move with invincibility will destroy any Throw attempt. The downside to it is that it’s hard to do.

  • James

Very good stuff. Just got a few things to add/correct.

Command throws don’t automatically beat normal throws. If you’re within range and get your normal throw out on the reversal frame, it will beat command throws. This won’t generally matter against good players, though, since they will space themselves so they’re out of your throw range. All command grabs in ST have longer range than any normal throw, except Gief’s super (which has the same range as shoto throws).

I just know this because as Balrog I often throw Hondas out of their point-blank c.jab into ochio tick, plus it makes sense given the properties of the reversal frame.

Hmm, what else…

Remember that Chun’s throw with MP does more damage than HP, Balrog’s MP throw has more range than HP (though this has been nerfed a bit in Remix), Ken’s knee bash now has slightly less range than the rest of his throws, and Dhalsim’s noogie now has slightly less range than his other throw.

And the throw range does depend on the opposing character’s hitbox. For instance, Ryu’s max throw range against another Ryu is 77 pixels, but against Zangief it’s 93 pixels!

Finally, one question I’ve always wondered about: Many old-school players would always say that Gief/Hawk’s super ticks were inescapable when executed properly; I’ve heard stories of grabbing shotos out of DP startup and such. Is this actually true, or can you reversal or counter-throw these setups?

Thanks James, I forgot about that. Edited in now, and you reminded me about another exception with Akuma’s super.

Ahaah, everybody look at what a scrub this guy is! :lovin:

Josh: wow, do normal throws ALWAYS beat out command throws?!

I have a couple of questions about jump startup I thought of while writing all that junk.

  • I know a special or super move can anull the impending jump. I’m pretty sure walking and normal attacks cannot. Can anything else anull a jump-to-be? (command attacks, normal throws, ducking, I dunno)
  • If you jump and just continue holding up as you land on the ground, the jump startup time still does need to happen before you jump again, riiight?

If you can’t be thrown during blockstun or hitstun, how exactly do tick throws work?

An excellent question! I’m thrilled the guide helped at least one person, hahah.

You’re actually just waiting to do the throw until as soon as they’re out of it. This is why you can still reversal them, even “perfect” ones. Sometimes you’ll hear people talking about a “tight” tick, which means the timing was really good, and the throw is done on the first or maybe second or third frame they’re out of it.

edit: Not 100% sure about how “right” some of this stuff is, since I’m not nearly good enough to be on either end of shit this advanced, hahah.

Tick throws are obviously powerful against people who cannot reversal. They’re still very powerful against people who can because you can switch up when the throw happens (Zangief’s rapid-fire block jabs into SPD), or bait their reversal and punish it (just crouch block and let 'em fly).

That, and it’s just plain really difficult for anyone to react in time to some of them. If you can tag someone (hit or block) with Blanka’s jumping short because they weren’t prepared enough to anti-air in the first place, they’re often too flustered to get out that reversal. If they even catch on in time, scrubs like me are usually too worried about eating a combo to do that shit and just switch to low block, and then get nibbled by 'dem bites. God, if somebody adds cross-ups to that mix I’m a toasted cookie.

I see. Explains why I can attack with a jab or short and actually see it come out, but get thrown anyway (guessing it’s a combination of lag and the attack not getting to the damage frames in time).

Hmm, yeah. If you see it extend fully and get thrown, that’s probably just a rollback.

The (already short) animation for attack does have a wee few startup frames though, and you can certainly be thrown before your attack ever gets to the part that actually hits. Alternately, the throw could outdistance your poke; Zangief will nab shoto crouching strongs like it’s breakfast time and you’re… I dunno, whatever Russians love to eat for breakfast.

Some sort of potato, I’m sure.

Nah, I was talking about standing jabs/shorts with Claw, actually, then I got to thinking about how his close attacks actually go through opponents because of the weird hitboxes.

I dunno, I think you can be thrown in block stun f’real.

I thought so too, but deadfrog generally knows his shit, so I dunno. Plus I think he’s right on being able to reversal tick throw attempts, which would prove him right.

You can’t. It’s just that you can be thrown really really soon after block stun ends. You can’t even jump away or throw out a attack before it happens.

Exactly how much of a character is “throwable”?

i.e. so long as my character is within throwing range of ANY hittable box of the opponent and the grounded condition is met (for a ground throw), the opponent can be thrown?

Similarly, where is throw range measured from, the edge of my character’s hitbox, or some magic center of the sprite?

In ST, since all Special Throws are 0 frame (if I’m not mistaken), they will ALWAYS beat out normal moves. You can throw a Meaty Chun Stand Fierce or a Bison Crouch Roundhouse against Gief, and you can reversal SPD it every time (those two moves are the easiest to time as meaty attacks, so you know you are doing it right).

I think the only thing that can anull a jump-to-be is getting hit or getting thrown. A player themselves cannot anull them except with Special moves.

Note: Getting hit on the VERY last frame before you jump results in the weird 2-Hit Combo glitch where you flip out of the 2nd hit of a Combo even though the first hit connected while you were on the floor.

And yes, you have to land and re-jump when you jump twice in a row, which is why even while holding straight up you can be thrown right when you land.

And yes, I have no problems admitting I’m a scrub. :slight_smile:

  • James

just ansewring the question earlier no tick is unescaple unless you count akuma’s imfamous super tick of hell. however T-Hawk in vanilla ST had a couple properties that made it possiblet o0 tick someone to death withougth fear of getting reversaled. So thats what they were refering too but to my knolege Geif did not have those propertys.

Haha no man, your ST Cammy has been an inspiration to the nation for years!!

Also, I think you misread my question but thank you for the good intentions. :wgrin:

Just wanted to add one thing that seems to not have been mentioned yet.

Normal throws can be done as reversals against meaty attacks on wake-up.

For example, if Dictator performs his slide (cr. Roundhouse) against an opponent as they are waking up from a knockdown so that his attack will hit them on the first frame they are standing up, and the opponent performs a normal throw on the first frame that they are standing (i.e. with reversal timing), Dictator’s slide will not hit, and he will get thrown. Its somewhat important to note that no reversal message is given on normal throws, even if they are performed with perfect reversal timing.

Its fairly hard to do this, but characters with more buttons that perform throws (shotos, and Deejay, for example, have 4 buttons that perform a throw) have a easier time doing it if they ‘piano’ the inputs (because they have 4 chances of landing the throw on the first frame they are standing…a character with only 2 throw buttons can only have 2 chances).

And props to Deadfrog for the awesome write-up on throws, I would certainly have forgotten to list much of that info.

Thank you for clearing that up. Of course the meaty attacker needs to be in throw range for the reversal to work. So the attacker can throw a meaty attack from far enough away and be safe from reversal throws (but maybe not reversal specials).