It depends on the game, and it’s risk/reward ratio. If you can do a 90% combo off of a single nearly unreadable tri-jump or low short, then, yes, damaging combos kills footsies. On the other hand, landing a 50% combo in ST was not as easy as it looks, considering how risky it is to jump in on somebody.
Agreed.
Parries aren’t the dumbest thing in 3s. The priority engine is.
Throws>Supers>Specials>Hard Normals>Medium Normals>Light Normals
There, no need to view hitboxes now.
I thought that only kicked in for trades?
How Could Fighting Games Change For The Better
We must first identify the type of people who play fighting games
1. People who play for the gameplay and competition vs others
2. People who play for any of the other reasons
There’s people who enjoy both, don’t nitpick.
Group 2 includes people who like the characters, story, music, design, watching others play
Group 1 includes people who travel, don’t travel, play just friends, play online, “lab rats” and combo video guys
Because much of what makes a game “good” is subjective, much of what makes a “better” is subjective.
Try to eliminate all matters of taste from suggestions and focus on universal things that can be improved
WE SHOULD NOT DISCUSS GROUP 2 BECAUSE IT IS ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE
Outside of saying “have a story, music, characters, etc.” there is no agreed upon way to improve them. You might like 3D models, but I like 2D drawings and sprites. You might like something believable, someone else might want fantasy. Some might like seeing a bunch of flashy colors going across the screen, some might like little to no flash, some might like blood/dirt.
It’s a matter of taste, please drop this, it’s why no one really cares and try to squash the topic when it comes up. Most of us (not speaking for anyone) can do without it because we’ll (not speaking for anyone) likely play regardless if the meat of the game is “good”.
WE SHOULD NOT DISCUSS GROUP 1 BECAUSE THAT IS SUBJECTIVE
How the game plays, how high or low is the execution barrier, how high is the skill ceiling, is it a 2D fighter, is it a 3D fighter, is it like Gundam Vs or Virtua On, are there hit boxes, hit spheres, accurate tied to limbs, is it fast, is it slow, are there meters, EX moves, input window tight or wide, input recognition precise or not, button settings, motions, guard bars, lifebars, blocking pushing away or needing a button, is it weapons or fisticuffs or both, does it use hitstun scaling, IPS, juggle points, the rules for those system, are the combos long, short, are they easy, hard, etc.
It is entirely a matter of taste. Stop arguing about it like there is a right or wrong. Illthuian says he wants Johnny Doughnuts wife’s to be able to play his theortical fighting game. I don’t know anything about her and I don’t want to guess what he means because I’ll look like an ass but I have to assume he means something like Farmville in terms of ease and appeal. That’s fine and all but I sure as hell don’t like the sound of that type of fighter.
Xes, Illthuian, etc. seem to want as many people playing as possible at the end of the day, I personally can’t get behind that because that sounds like there’ll be less challenge in learning or practicing if they think fighters don’t already do what they’re suggesting. **I’m just exemplifying these “ideas” are subjective, it’s taste. **
What should we discuss?
Universal things that can be improved/added.
IMO:
-Netcode
-Online Experience (whatever this means)
-Training Mode
----Why don’t more games have hitbox display? Might be suggestive, someone might think it’s revealing too much.
-Tutorials
-Etc.
If the game has a distinction between EX moves and supers, EX moves would be done by hitting two special buttons at the same time, supers would be done by hitting all three. Once again, different directions would differentiate between supers if necessary. Same thing as most current games really, just only the button press and not the motion.
Throws would be done with close C. While there’s no dedicated auxiliary function button, there’s still pressing two of A, B, or C for a roll or a dash if the game so calls for it. It might have to be relegated to just A+B to prevent any weird option selects depending on how the game is programmed if a dash could be done with A+C. If absolutely necessary, A+X, B+Y, C+Z, could be relegated as additional auxiliary functions if it turns out no character wants those inputs for their specials.
What you’re saying about empty design space is a very real problem for newer players once they see that one character has more options on buttons than other characters. It does stand out much more blatantly in this system that a character only has two specials vs. another character’s five. It means that that’s definitely a limitation of the system that has to be designed around; I.E. all characters will have to have probably 4 specials. This isn’t an impossible task, it’s just something that has to be balanced out.
However, even if a new player picks up the game and sees a character with five special moves and a character with two and goes: “Psh, I’m never going to use a character with just two special moves on all those buttons.” It still means they can get to the part of understanding each of those five moves of the character they picked that much faster. And if they stick with the game because they can do each character’s special moves that much faster, it means they can advance to the point where they’re focused about the application of the moves instead of the execution of the moves that much faster.
Yeah, I agree that difficult in execution is a thing that’s very different for different people. Which is probably why I’m the only one advocating for a complete elimination of motions. I have a group of friends who love playing fighting games as a social thing, but they can’t properly do motions all the time and they don’t want to sit down and just grind out a DP motion for an hour so they can do it. They’re losing out on the depth of a fighting game because they can’t properly dragon punch for an anti-air. They’re not playing fighting games super seriously not because they’re giving up on footsies or whiff punishes or hit confirms or the more advanced stuff, they’re not trying to play seriously because they know they can’t execute basic moves when they want to execute them without grinding it out in training mode. I think that the fact that a player needs to hit training mode for X amount of time to be able to do the basic functionality of a character is something that could be eliminated entirely. As a friend who wants to get them to appreciate the depth of fighting games, how do I convince them it’s worth it if my only answer to them not being able to do motions for moves is: “Go spend time in training mode so you can learn the ‘real’ game.” ?
Funnily enough, for my friends who did try to get better at SFIV while still sucking at consistent motions, they started to gravitate toward characters like Chun-Li, where normals are a relatively larger part of her competitive suite of tools (and one of her specials is just mash kick, so that probably helped too). Of course, being unable to consistently do EX spinning bird kick or using ultra 1 to punish fireballs meant that he was still limited in his options. Furthermore, a decent number of them like Tekken a lot more than SFIV because they can pick characters that don’t rely on motions and they can just deal with directions and a lot of button presses.
I more or less agree with you about emergent mechanics, let me just explain a bit better. I’m mostly talking about is if an emergent mechanic comes from something extremely technical. Once again, fly canceling as an example. It’s an extremely technical thing in MvC2 that was a blast to do, and added a ton to Sentinel, Iron Man, and Dhalsim’s gameplay. So, Capcom took the extremely technical portion of fly canceling (the fact that you had to return to neutral momentarily after activating flight) and made it more accessible to newer players while retaining the general concept of “if I hit you with a poke, I can go into fly and continue a combo.” This is a good way to implement emergent technology from a previous game into a new game.
Developers should avoid deliberately keeping the difficulty of execution high IF a solution exists to keep the technique functional at a lower executional level. If a solution doesn’t exist, then the developer has to make the tough choice between keeping something that made the series awesome but inaccessible or removing it so that newer players won’t be daunted by the task. Obviously, for pretty much everyone that played the game at the competitive level, they want to keep the awesome thing intact while just telling new players to suck it up and learn how to do it. This was easily seen from SSBM to SSBB with the removal of wave-dashing, where all the competitive players hated the removal of it, but all the more casual players either couldn’t care less, or loved the fact that it was gone. Ideally, there should be some middle ground for compromise that lets competitive players let their knowledge of how to apply the technique carry over, but removes any extravagant execution requirements.
As for people getting upset when they lose to something easy, people want to be rewarded for the time they’ve put into the game, no matter if that time is spent grinding out nominally things that are single player activities or if that time is spent learning how to properly zone or punish. Now, this is definitely a personal judgement call, but I think that grinding out motions is equivalent to grinding out levels in PvP MMO. It’s not something that helps you understand the game in and of itself, but it’s a requirement to be able to even begin to play the game at a competitive level. Learning combos and such would be akin to grinding out gear. It’s still grinding, but you’re learning basic applications of your skillset (even if it’s not in a PvP scenario) which is definitely more applicable to the competitive scene.
In a perfect competitive game, there would be no grinding of this sort. Among other things, the game would be about whoever makes the better choices using the tools they have at their disposal and every player has access to every tool from the beginning. This is impossible for fighting games. Different levels of execution invariably means that different player will have access to different tools when they start playing the game. My personal view is that the barrier to use every tool should be as simple as possible. But using the tool properly should take practice, and that’s the hallmark of a good competitive game. Now, there’s some debate over what constitutes use of a tool vs. actually getting the tool itself, but that’s where I’m coming from (my perspective is that grinding to learn motions is grinding to get the tool).
The one thing that I’d love to see in fighting games is online training mode. That would be so incredibly useful to teach other players how to do things, since repeated 1v1s don’t let you really show the same things.
Well, yeah, you’re right on the footsies part.
But, to my knowledge, there has yet to be a game like that, Marvel 3 is close, teetering the line, but not over it.
Wait, what…? I knew 3S had a silly priority system, but THROWS>>>>>SUPERS??? Are you kidding me? smh
hahahaha
does it now?
like I said, you need to know how to play the fucking games in order to see why certain inputs are there.
these aren’t hard tricks either. I knew these in year 1 when I was being taught by top players and some of them are common sense.
you’re posting in a thread about how to make fighting games better and you don’t even know how a simple input like that can be used. If you know the input and its variations, that input becomes an execution trick earned through practice.
Also, command grab supers are still classified with the rest of the supers. Regular grabs will beat them.
@Mr. X For the Universal things to talk about…
Im pretty sure we beat the horse to death on Training modes and Tutorials…but rather other game modes like how the Versus mode itself should be structured and should there be any advancement in that. Were things like Ghost Battle and Programmable AI dead ideas? Should those things be factored or integrated in the training mode itself…
I say this because I had a idea about VF4’s programmable AI being used in conjunction with the games free training, you can build a AI with your habits and playstyle and effectively break that down and find the flaws and holds in your game and in real time level up your game, even being able to save that AI and use it in a online training mode like SFxTK for other people to critique would be pretty cool right? At that Point after playing matches or w/e your friend leaves he can send you his AI to spar against when he isn’t available. I think they had the right Idea back then, they just never expanded on the idea…
as long as the whole spacing game is still there, im ok with the ground space game suffering a little, footsies as people call them, is not the end of the spectrum when it comes about the spacing game
if anything, i feel that some feel that the spacing game on umvc3 has been hindered because people doesnt take the opportunity to explore different team options, outside some players, the team compositions are not varied enough where you can see how the characters can interact in different ways on how to control the space,and no, im not saying that is not there, but is not evident enough, specially for people who only know the spacing game from the sf series in general
Dat log trap
exactly
spacing game is not just walking back and forward throwing normals
people fail to see that, because many dont have enough experience with fg outside sf
Complex question.
It can start by not changing for the worse. Remember the roots(SF2).
GG’s Testament is a good example of spacing…Tree’s, Blood nets, Birds…fuck I hate him…
I think he was talking about the old Tiger Knee motion, not performing a QCF with a fast jump input.
In general, discussions become more fruitful if you don’t assume that everybody with a different perspective is completely ignorant.
go back and read his post on this page. Nothing about old TK motion. Looks like to me, he was just shitting on the input in general. Which is pretty standard for players who don’t know how to play nor understand how inputs are useful
discussions can only be fruitful when everyone is on the same page. Which is not the case in this thread. There is nothing wrong with a different perspective but you have to remember that Hitler also had a different perspective and it made him completely ignorant.
Once I put in the time in with a fighting game, I can play pretty much any fighting game. Grinding out execution makes me better at something. Grinding out levels and gear in an MMO makes my character better. Once the server resets, or I go to a new game, or start a new character, all of that is gone.
I don’t see execution as a bad thing. It’s a part of pretty much any physical competition. If anyone could lace up a pair of skates and be Wayne Gretzky, would there really be a point to playing hockey? There are games that are more or less pure strategy (Chess) and games that are more are less pure execution (IIDX). Fighting games happen to fall somewhere in the middle–execution and strategy are fundamentally part of the competition.
I would play your 6-button no-execution fighting game if it was fun. But I don’t think it’s somehow a better competitive game because it doesn’t have execution. It’s just a different kind of competition that tests different things. Something I’ve noticed with the anti-execution crowd in a lot of these threads is that they don’t really want to play Fighting Games. They want to play some other game that happens to feature two people fighting.
Online p.mode would be pretty boss. I don’t know why every game doesn’t have that.
bro, you cant compare xes with hittler,
hittler had appeal at his side
too long, didnt read lol
that is him zoning
Seriously dude, Hitler?
Checks to see if this is the troll impostor account