No.
>None of that is to say any of those mechanics is always good, but that you can’t look at them in a vacuum.
ggpo
What the fuck? Let’s backtrack, shall we?
First you say harder moves are better because they allow for stronger skill progression. Next you completely change your answer and say that fighting games great because they allow you to play them right away and allow for continuous improvement of skill.
You can’t just change your answer to whatever you feel like. You know what your problem is? It feels like you are making your opinion to be fact, when in fact, your opinions are fucking terrible
What in the fuck does harder moves being better because it allows for stronger skill progression, what in the fuck does that have to do with why fighting games are great? Not a goddamn thing! I nor Austin weren’t even talking about that. YOU were the one who decided to randomly talk about how games were great because of skill progression.
Jesus Fuck! :mad:
Again, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about - randomly changing your answer to fit your OPINION.
Is this nigga for real? How about all those scrubs stop blaming the game because they have shit execution. How about they actually go practice their execution instead of complaining all the goddamn time and asking for easier inputs or simplified controls and shit. Nope, they don’t want to practice their execution, instead, they’d rather blame the game and say that it’s the game’s fault because they made certain things unnecessarily hard to execute.
Lazy-ass fucks.
At some point I cannot be responsible for you taking bizarre-ass interpretations of my posts.
The pattern is: you misinterpret something, I clarify, you tell me that your misunderstanding is what I actually meant and I’m changing my story.I will say it yet again: a.good game is both accessible and rewards increasing your skill. That’s the goal, and you can meet both of those goals at once.
What?
May you word that differently, I believe I’m gonna interpret that incorrectly.
Xes says stupid shit, water continues to be wet, birds continue to fly Bring up chickens or flamingos and I’ll slit your throat, and Kool Aid still taste delcious. All is right in the world.
Phone posting is a pita, lol
Snark aside, if you had a hypothetical (and impossible in reality) situation where changing the ease of execution on a move had no other effect on the game as a whole, wouldn’t it be better to have the move be easier to do? Again, all other things being equal…
I’m trying to show an answer to the ‘why’ question you asked last page by showing that you want things to be as easy as possible without degrading play.
It’s an idea that seems self evident to me, but seems also to be a major point of contention.
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Well, yeah, why not?
The problem is, this isn’t a dream world, this is reality, where ease of a move, and how the move is performed does have effect.
Arguing about the things that will never happen is moot, and off topic, really.
Here’s the thing, you change thing for ease because it’s better. The question that needs to be asked is ‘why shouldn’t we?’ or to put it another way, ‘is there a way making this easier will mess up the gameplay?’
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Now fit in commands for 2-3 supers (by the way this isn’t random), also note that you at this point with 3 special strengths have no extra buttons left for any auxiliary functions to have have a dedicated button, unless this game has an 8 button default. BTW how do you grab in this game? Can you roll? command dash?
Now in all of the jumble that is a 5 special character compare that with a character that has 2 specials in the same game, everything is so bunched together to accommodate the first character into this game that a two special character now has an overabundance of empty command space, actually a much more noticeable lack of commands now that both character move sets can be compared on the same button. Motions allow for a “limitless” number of special move but this format does not, there is a maximum number of mover you can fit in, and a character that is much closer to that max stands out more, as does a character that is nowhere near that max. Skilled players will still judge these two character on there merits but for beginner player this format has just increased the feeling of disparity between these two characters whether it real or not.
It was kind of a thought exercise to clarify that ease is positive, if it’s doing no harm. Then we just need to establish the harm and make a weighed decision.
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Am I missing something here because it looks like you are talking about two different things.
That has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Again, we were talking about why harder moves are better.
Please elaborate strictly on the bolded parts. And please, re-word it because I’m probably going to misinterpret it.
I know I’m beating a dead horse but I really want to understand your logic here.
Here’s a thought:
How about, when it comes time to balance a fighting game, you buff the weak/low tier characters rather than nerf the already strong/decent ones.
Nobody will throw a tantrum if Hsien-Ko in MvC3 suddenly gets potential, but chances are someone will if you nerf Wesker or Zero. As they should, because they have no right to be punished for using the obviously better or easier character in the game. Even if you buff half the cast and change the game dramatically, you won’t lose as much hype as you would neutering Phoenix or Sent.
Shin- Then we were misunderstanding each other from the start. I’ll hit difficulty of input balance later, have a cogent answer on that, but not on a phone post
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you already said it, its impossible in reality, so why bother asking something that you have already admitted that is not possible
moves determinate how the specials are used
Because I need to establish the point that ease in of itself is a positive (as long as you don’t break other things by adding it).
But anyways, @shin
If I'm understanding you right, that whole previous exchange was based on confusion in that I was talking about games in general the whole time, and you were talking about specific moves.
If I'm right about that, here's my take on balancing to input difficulty (aka: It's harder to do so it must have better properties)
The short version is that for any particular move skill of execution is going to top out over input difficulty. Once you have somebody that's mastered the input, the harder to do but better move is just a better move. One important part of the balancing has disappeared from the equation. It's balancing a move for the very lowest level of skill.
There are things related to inputs that can effect balancing at all levels, like input time (it will always take fractionally longer to do a double roll, for instance), or charge motions forcing you to hold back/duck.You’re still kind of blowing my mind.
What would YOU make the inputs to be?
I’m perfectly fine with traditional inputs myself, with moderately loose input windows.
I understand the arguments for taking them out, but I don’t think its particularly necessary. The fact that there are traditional inputs gives a level of instant familiarity to fighting games that I like.
That being said, there are certain inputs that are just unnecessary. :d::df::f::uf: is an input that adds difficulty for no actual gain in gameplay (leave that input for low level air moves), for instance. In the same way, there’s absolutely no need for there to be a pretzel input (although no games have them anymore anyways).
In general the reason I’m following this is because a few times you’ve said (to my understanding), ‘why bother making them easier?’ or ‘why change what ain’t broke?’ The answer is ‘because even if they’re not broken, it’d be an overall improvement’.
Loose inputs lead to accidental inputs (ask an SFIV Seth player) and exploits. It’s a prime example of how making games easier to play can negatively affect high level play.
What’s the difficulty in that?
It’s like that because it brings famiarity to the move.
And, that technically IS a “traditional” input because that’s been the input for chicken wing since ST.
It’s basically a half circle with an arrow being after the forward instead of behind the down.
Fei Long already has a half circle, a QCF, a DP, and so, for the new moves that keep being added, of course that’s gonna have a vastly different input.
It’s there for the PLAYER to know.
All of those motions are different and have a different time, they also help the opponent know what you’re doing when you’re playing offline, which is a part of fighting games.
It also helps to know what an option select is.
If EVERYTHING was a QCF, or even multiple moves on a moveset were a QCF, wouldn’t things get a little stupid.
I believe they made Rose’s soul spark a half circle for that sole reason.
lmao, you admitted that it cant be done in reality, so why asking it, its a fucking waste of time, it leads to nothing
as usual, you argue for the sake of arguing