Incorporate ground fighting into fgs.To me that is the elephant in the room with many fighting games.Add real dynamic throws,holds,submissions etc.That would increase depth tremendously .
No the issue is exactly this attitude.
It betrays a basic misunderstanding of what makes a game good or bad, sacrificing quality for cliquishness.
And I hate to tell you, but although sponsorship has some effect, those games have the big pots specifically because more people are playing them.
Banned: member is banned. Creating fake accounts to work around a ban is not acceptable. If you have an issue with a ban, take it up with a mod/supermod to get your ban lifted. Otherwise you will be banned on sight.
I won’t consider this troll becuase your serious.
Obviously, you created your own argument. People play games they like. Xes and Ithiunan or whatever are posting ways to expand the scene and such, not improve the GAMES. The first step to improvin games is not the look of the visuals. Things like fighting games THRIVE off of gameplay and mechanics. Visuals don’t matter AS MUCH. All people are suggesting is that MAYBE Capcom take a look at why their games (most recent one really, the other 2 look like masterpieces) are critically acclaimed by fighting game players as bad. Its becuase despite what people are saying, they are making the same mistakes. SFxT could have been great, but they butchered that engine so much they are pretty much trying to kill it with those new gems they released. They need to MOVE AWAY from that way of thinking to improve their games. The way people are still sucking their dick is another topic entirely.
And preppy that really was an unwarranted ban, on what grounds did he actually deserve it?
IMO, the old Capcom games were superior when it came to gameplay/mechanics. However, the new games are superior when it comes to bringing in big numbers, in both tournament entry numbers and game sales. Naturally, this means that the old games had less players but the new games had worse gameplay/mechanics. Capcom has to pick one because it’s obvious that you can’t have both. So, Capcom went where the money was. This is Capcom’s current business model (as I see it):
Make the game easy to play > which will cause more people to buy the game > more money for Capcom.
Capcom doesn’t care about making fighting games better, they just care about making fighting games that sell. Yeah, I know Capcom is a business who needs to make money and there’s nothing wrong with that. But this leads me to believe that making money is more important to them, rather than making the best game they can make. cue Ilthuain. Yeah, I know “best” is subjective but, I personally and objectively believe that this quote is 100% true:
“If [your objective] is to make the best possible SF game, then catering to novices is obviously going to get in your way.” ― Seth Killian, 1998
I mean, the quote is playing itself out right now. If you look at Capcom’s current track record for their fighting games (SF4/MvC3/SFxT), each game gets worse in terms of comeback mechanics and scrub friendly garbage.
[LIST]
[]SF4 - Ultras
[]MvC3 - X-Factor
[*]SFxT - Assist Gems - Scrubbiest game of all time!
[/LIST]
So it seems like fighting games will get worse but the numbers will grow. To me,** what good is a large community if the games that are coming out today aren’t fun to play?**
Capcom says that their games are geared towards both casual and hardcore players. Bullshit. Anyone with half a brain can see that their games are geared more towards casual players. So if you want fighting games to get better, well it’s definitely not going to happen as long as Ca$hcom keeps catering to casuals.
And you’re sacrificing quality for quantity.
What the fuck is it with people and their obsession for money? If players are playing fighting games for the money, then they in the wrong gaming community for making big cash, fast. Before SF4 came out, money and big numbers weren’t such a concern back then. Now that’s all people care about. Oh and sponsors, let’s not forget about them because if we don’t plug them everywhere and say nice things about them, we won’t get our precious money for big pots.
This obsession for money is making the community worse. Look at what happened between Jago and Mike Ross. I for one am glad that the video got leaked. At least everyone will see how the community has changed: It’s not about playing anymore, it’s about makin’ that paper.
The improvement I want to see out of fighting games is to lower the barrier to entry so more people will play the game and be able to make meaningful decisions that determine outcome. That is my definition of improving the game, although your milage may vary. Individual mechanics don’t mean nearly as much to me as having a wider variety of people to play and having those new players reach a reasonable level of competence in a short time.
To be clear, I believe that recent Capcom games have largely succeeded in expanding the player base, but has repeatedly failed to execute their goal of creating a beginner-friendly game. They are far too reliant on gimmicks that may appear to level the playing field (ultras, gems, x-factor), but are actually serve to undermine the game dynamic.
Concerning visuals… I’m not sure where it is that someone suggested that visuals are more important than gameplay (on this thread anyway… talk to a game artist and you will totally hear that). Visuals are important because they get people to be initially interested in a game, but obviously gameplay compels them to continue playing. The concern I have with the chain of argument in here is that somehow development of visuals take away from the design and iteration process. The concept that cutting back on visuals will make the “core gameplay” better is absurd. Even if more resources were allocated to the design department, the failures you perceive are due to decisions, not lack of resources. The person who decided that x-factor was a great idea wouldn’t change his mind if his department had more resources.
Additionally, all video game genres thrive off strong gameplay mechanics… even those social games 40 year old mothers play on Facebook. Fighting games have different gameplay requirements, not necessarily more requirements.
@shin akuma
How about this, the way to make fg’s better is to have developers and publishers treat them seriously.
Right now we’re getting authorized Dr. Who novels, that’s not good.
About the money, ask the schoulz &ct. I don’t care about prize money, but the people who claim to should LOVE the games drawing new players (pot monsters) in. If they make the argument, I’m not gonna resist annihilating it.
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Phone hates editing posts;
Shin, I agree that the money obsession is poison to the community. It’s also hilarious because the people who like to carry on about how important it is also have no chance of winning real money. It’s fake gangsta poser bullshit
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That is why i don’t play games with big scenes for money anymore. If I am not touching money, and i am not enjoying the game, whats the point?
ehhh, that’s what they WANT to do, but in the end its the hardcore players that stick around. If Capcom’s games are more geared towards casuals, they’re doing a terrible freakin job. The same can be said about most fighting game developers
No, but creating fake accounts because you’re banned does make you a troll. People are welcome to contribute as normal people. Anybody having a problem with the forum rules can PM me or another mod or a supermod easily. Anybody trying to smash their way through the forum rules will be banned.
I agree 100% that differing opinions are great. Otherwise life is boring. See also rule #7 :
" Also note that someone disagreeing with you is not necessarily trolling: learn to tolerate different views."
I for one have never tried getting good. I just enjoy the game. Sometimes it’s cool just to enjoy shit. Not everything has to be about winning Evo. Only a couple cats win Evo, but everyone has the opportunity for some pretty awesome competition.
People who are hung up on how others live their life are psycho.
Can’t sure if trolling or …
Nobody gets to create fake accounts to work around their social problems. You do it and that account will be banned.
This.
Pretty obvious that the dude was the same perp who was banned earlier this week. In cases like that folks should just flat out ignore the guy and report them so that the mods can ban their ass.
I’d have no problem with that, except I don’t think that’s going to happen.The mentality of the majority of players has changed. Maybe that’s the problem. They want easy games. If you make the game too hard to play/learn, people won’t buy it. I believe you can’t have a technical fighter and expect it to gain big numbers nowadays. It’s like mixing oil and water.
The only thing that could work is if Capcom had a studio/dev team that specifically made games like the old games. That way, everyone’s happy. I know it’s impractical but it could work.
And ultimately that’s where we disagree, I think we can have a technical fighter that sells well and has mainstream appeal, but it needs to be designed from the ground up.
Capcom just has this weird habit of half-assing. They make a game, then throw in some gimmicks to appeal to their core audience (like focus parry/cancel and the cancel aspect of X-factor were supposed to), and then turn around and throw in some gimmicks that are supposed to appeal to casual players (comeback mechanics making you feel you always have a chance to win, for instance, or the particular way they did input shortcuts in SF4).
My easy recipe for a good casual/hardcore game:
[LIST]
[]Target combos ala SF3, but not full magic series
[]Simple juggle properties, probably about on the line of SF4 for juggle hits
[]Traditional move inputs, in the same way traditional special/super cancel properties
[]Single super bar, with 3-4 segments. Darkstalkers style EX moves for your basic supers
[]Full bar cinematic super (Note: I hate these, but the game I’m describing needs some flash for promos and general appeal. Making it expensive means hopefully we won’t see TOO much of them. This also gives at least SOME ‘always have a chance’ factor without an annoying gimmick like Ultra)
[]ST style throw breaks, 2button throw
[]Extremely high damage, 2~3 confirmed combos to kill.
[]As bonus content some system comparable to Soulcalibur 2’s conquest mode, with ‘ghosts’ for offline play.
[]Fairly wide but not obscene input buffers. This both helps to make the game less lag-sensitive and makes some of the harder inputs more accessible to all players. No shortcuts that make inputs overlap 
[/LIST]
What I’m describing isn’t a very ambitious game really, it’s pretty much a standard fighter. I pulled that out of my ass in about 5 minutes, but the idea was to emphasize certain things:
[LIST]
[]No especially gimmicky game systems. They almost always turn off some part of the player base, and don’t add much tactically (c/f ultra combos, xfactor).
[]High damage in the place of a standard ‘comeback mechanic’, it works just as well.
[]Some room for execution skill development, to give the player some sense of progress and accomplishment
[]A focus on players getting fairly quickly to the ability to make informed decisions.
[]Bonus content based on playing other players or AI’s developed specifically based on how other players act, as compared to huge trial lists or an extended story mode that nobody cares about…
[/LIST]
ST did not have throw breaks, it has throw softening which is different.
Also, Mike_Z already came up with a formula for proper input windows after years of gathering empirical data: 4 frames for every direction + 4 extra frames for directions that aren’t next to each other + 2 frames for the attack input.
In practice then, this results in:
dp calculation
Spoiler
:f: = 4f
traverse = 4f
:d: = 4f
:df: = 4f
:p: = 2f
Total = 18f
This system is already in place in Skullgirls, so none of the input windows in that game are abirtrary. The system calculates them based on that formula.
you knew what I meant man, don’t be pedantic
Edit: wondering how you can gather empirical data to get the ‘right’ input windows, trying to put it together in my head how that works, and failing ><
Still very different. Softening is input after the throw input and personally, I don’t like this. IMO, if you’re going to soften/tech/break a throw, you better learn to do it on anticipation.
As for empirical testing, I have no idea, just that Mike claims to have done so from 1999 to 2006.
Sorry, pet peeve; any statement that could easily start with the phrase ‘well, actually…’ makes me crazy >>
I actually prefer softening a lot, it substantially changes how throws work, and I think in a good way. I always feel like you should be in a position to benefit from a successful throw, regardless of the circumstance, and I dislike true guessing games, which throw breaks tend to be in the other systems.
I didn’t put this in my list, but if it were up to me, I’d borrow another influence from darkstalkers, and make it so every character has an untechable command throw (with a slower startup/different properties) and a techable normal throw. I think it’d give an interesting dimension to the throw game.
About the input windows, I was asking specifically because I'm wondering if he was accounting for lag when he was figuring that out, or was just thinking of it in an offline setting. Adjusting the buffers for lag mitigation was, imo, the one thing that blazblue did amazingly well, and more games should have copied it (although its less necessary if you use rollback as well, admittedly. Still, BB and HDR had the best online experiences, of any fighting games, in my opinion). Although it begs the question of whether we should be designing games around online or not. There are a number of tricks you could use to make lag less noticable, even at the same latency.sticking to the norm in fighting game design is the equivalent to destroying art and the practice of it.
there is nothing to FIND in the standard tradition of fighting game except an ouroboros reality.
it’s like a promotion of a goldfish existence, you guys are fucking stupid, they are making these games for you while sucking your time and money DRY, because you’re TOO stupid to realise the importance of innovation.
they don’t care about making a well balanced street fighter clone. it just saddens me so much I can’t take it anymore
Throw techs, done right (3rd Strike, Skullgirls, GG) only seem like guesses in low level play. Because of the short length of the window, you’re eventually forced to learn how to read your opponent.
Compare 3S and SG’s 6 frames to tech (plus 2 frames before the throw animation hits) to ST’s 13 frames after the throw hits. The latter is much wider and is easier to tech on reaction, eventually you just end up nerfing throws because you can weaken them on reaction - especially in a system with 2 button throws which likely involes a throw animation as well as removes ST style OS throws.