Just saying, that post was ironic considering that you had among the worst behavior. I let it go a long time ago, just pointing this out.
Xes has a weird way of thinking, IMO
For example, when most people (including myself) want to judge whether a game is good or not, people usually judge the gameplay/mechanics. Xes judges based on Production Values, such as graphics and amount of content. :wtf:
Xes, have you ever considered the idea that the reason why people have such a strong attachment to the old games is because they’re actually good and not because they hate anything/everything that’s new? I hate the new games because of the design philosophies that went into them. What the new, most popular games are doing is dumbing down the game so that new players can play. This leads to awful deisgn decisions/gameplay mechanics that are created, in order to assist new players (ie - input leniency, comeback mechanics, etc.) It’s like if you changed the height of the basketball net in the NBA, in order to assist shorter players. This is the primary reason as to why a lot of people dislike the newer games. SG is new but I like the game a lot, because the mechanics are solid.
"If [your objective] is to make the best possible SF game, then catering to novices is obviously going to get in your way." ― Seth Killian, 1998
The design choices and mechanics that are put into a game is VERY important. Not only that but how they are implemented is also important. This is exactly why I hate new games like SF4/UMvC3 and like SG. SF4/UMvC3 did it wrong and SG did it right.
Yo son, weren’t you that dude trying to call me out when I pointed shit about the gems in SFxT forum? Bags of dicks to you son, gems still don’t add anything to the gameplay other than: 1) give you one really great combo, 2) reward you for what you are already doing.
Don’t be mad though, there are some things about SRK: 1) SRK would like to teach new people about the old games because a lot of these were great games, 2) SRK can’t teach people about the old games because a lot of the consoles they were in are dying or there are no suitable ports for them, 3) Old people are hella haters towards a lot of new games, 4) New people are hella dumb because most things that get pointed out them they more or less want to cover it with “that’s like, your opinion man.”
Overall the problem has to do more with how the new people got absorbed into the community than anything else (here’s a hint: everybody did a really shitty job of it and they are barely getting around to getting you guys in properly).
i’ll let the bag of dicks comment pass as i’m still in a good mood. The # of things about SRK is what it is, I could tell they people are going to believe what they are going to believe and die with those ideals, It just took this shit for me to realize that again…I was being stupid for thinking otherwise. Anyways, I’ll take this as a complement move the on.
This shows how much people were not taught about SRK. I’d explain further but I think saying the bag of dicks counts as my first shot. Nobody really cares what mood you are; on the other hand the amount of stupid you (as in people with join dates 09 and up) have brought to the site has almost outweighed all the good things we’ve gotten.
A bigger issue more than anything is that in all honesty, SF4 is alright but kinda boring, MvC3 is Full Retard, HDremix was murdered for various reasons and while skullgirls is great, niggas are gonna hate at the panties. So the one honest to god awesome game we have people hate on because of the artwork. So the second real issue is the games we got much more than anything else. Take my posts and meditate because I ain’t writing a Litany in a hot minute.
I don’t mention SFxT because that game is hilarious for all the wrong reasons.
I think the only way fighting games could move ahead in the mainstream is to have more teaching opportunities for new players, as well as plenty of non-traditional game modes. Smash Bros did this really well by putting in fun, simple but deep minigames like Race to the Finish and Target Test. Collecting trophies also kept me playing that game for a while longer than I normally would have.
shrugs I’m sick of being talked down to, and I’ve had enough. Listen, I don’t have any beef with you, if you do have a problem with me then don’t dance around it and just say it, I don’t need you trying to enlighten me about the ways of SRK if your going to be an ass about it.
But that is the way of SRK: people take their lumps until they learn and then they go on to give new people lumps until they learn. For better or worse that was the way people were integrated into the community. Similarly you, as well as everybody else, needs to accept that your join date matters a lot because while the website is not the entirety of the community, it is one important aspect of the community. So while you may have been king dude at your arcade, as far as shoryuken.com fighting game community is concerned you’ve only been here for 2 years as part of its community.
Take a look again at that join date: it more or less pinpoints you in time as far as which games you came for. Unless you are dropping knowledge on MvC2, CvS2 or ST, it is highly likely that you came here for a 2.5D hot tranny mess. This also means that as far as we can tell, you are still wet behind the ears as far as fighting games go.
So like I said, the majority of the community was not integrated properly into the the already established one. Instead of working with the existing culture, the people who run the stie try to force a change in the way from how it had already developed. Whenever somebody forcibly tries to change culture, really wacky shit happens. It just so happens you are part of that wackiness.
My post > The Front Page.
Come at me.
“Maybe you just suck” is a fucking terrible argument that misses the point entirely. It’s not about things being too hard to do. It’s about where the focus of the game lies. It becomes less about your mind and more about your fingers.
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Ok I see where your coming from, I don’t talking about my history with fighting games as im sure not many will give a fuck anyways. I mainly played SNK fighters until the about the release of MVC2 on the dreamcast then I got into Capcom fighters and entered my first tournament…which was project justice. Like you said, Since I didn’t join earlier I’m seen as new and that is understandable. If I gotta take my lumps then whatever, i’m sure there is alot more I gotta do anyways. Since there are not many threads about Fatal Fury Special or Real Bout, I can’t really drop the kind of knowledge you’ll expect.
Anyways I Appreciate the lecture, even though I was getting rather annoyed but, I guess you were doing with the best intentions in mind so I can’t fault you too much(or maybe im giving you too much credit).
The issue is always, ‘given that tastes vary so wildly, what is an actually measurable standard?’
What’s ‘good’ is absolutely impossible to tell, especially not early on.
Honestly man, I’ve been taking part in these discussions one way or another for quite a while now, and I’ve learned 3 things.
- All cultures have the exact same issues and discussions as this. Doesn’t matter what the subject is, its the same shit.
- People don’t know their asses from a hole in the ground.
- People freak the fuck out when you even suggest that they’re not 100% rational in their decisions (hint none of us are, I sure as fuck am not. Most of us are lucky to get 50%)
I'll make it absolutely clear again, I like the older games more than the newer ones myself. In fact, I think the genre has been going in a consistently retarded direction since the early 2000's.
That being said, *I also know that's my **opinion***, and the only way to have these discussions effectively at all is to try to base them on something solid, or else we go back to "NO YOUR GAME SUCKS ASS!" There has to be a standard.
The question is, if we all have our own ideas of what makes a game good, and every single person's taste is different, **what is that standard?**
The only good one that I can think of is 'what gets the most play on an ongoing basis*?
*But by that standard SF4 is the best game in the last 5-8 years, and nobody here likes that answer (me included :p).
Edit:
I actually have a really specific and well-planned out idea of what I think a *good *fighting game would be, but as much as I think its the way to go, I have to realize that my good game isn’t useful for the genre moving forward, because nobody would buy it, and nobody would play it. What each of us personally thinks is ‘good’ doesn’t make the genre more successful or get more people turning out at events.
Fighting games in the old days were fun, they didnt have to have cheap gimmicks to get people to play. Like super turbo might have had supers yes but it still isnt as bad as x-factor or ultras. And other lame shit to make it feel like player is using dumb shit to win instead of pure skill. Capcom later tried V-combos in A3. A3 was a very fun game to play for a long time, till people found the infinite combos. Vamp Sav games do not use random shit to win, maybe the most balanced game ever made. Other example of people playing shitty games like DOA series of VF series, since Doa has fan service and VF series does not people in the U.S. rather play doa.
My point is companies like capcom did not making fighting games worse, they make fighting games on what people want, fan service, lame gimmicks, easy no brainer gameplay, non-deep fighting games, and making a fighting game with a bunch of flashy shit, because americans are idiots
Trying to get back on some kind of topic, rather than personalities…
Isn’t an internet cafe a skewed sample set for what’s making money or not? Since people often go to those places specifically to play multiplayer games.
A person who goes to a LAN event here would be under the impression that BF/SC2/DoTA/TF/etc are the big sellers. Sure, they are, but games like The Sims sell just as big, and the person would have totally missed that.
Similarly, I imagine RPGs and action-adventure games like DMC and stuff sell well in asia, but you would never see them being played at an internet cafe.
Do those games have “training mode” ? Certainly the FPS games dont, but I havent played a MOBA so I dunno about those.
I see the difference between FGs and those genres as this: Those games don’t have a training mode. You hop online, suck horribly, get abused, and then you man up and keep playing online, read FAQs, get help, and maybe get better. But you keep playing online as your main mode of play.
(Maybe I’m mistaken. Maybe top FPS players spend hours every day in an empty server shooting at pixels on the screen to improve their aiming, I have no idea.)
Whereas FGs “require” a certain percentage of your time to spent in training mode to train your muscle memory to do things. (This is more prevalent in some games than others. We didn’t have training mode in arcade SF2, and it was mostly ok, for example. Although we sometimes practised during “mercy rounds” :P)
Some people enjoy training mode, some people don’t mind it (I fall into this category), but I can certainly see how a lot of people would be turned off by the notion that they need to spend a fair amount of time “outside” of the game, to get better at playing the game. It feels like “work” to them, not “play”.
Ok, so one of the ideas being advanced, is for singleplayer content to help out with training the player. For those people turned off by training mode, they might be interested in playing through a singleplayer mode. A singleplayer mode can introduce concepts gradually whilst giving specifically-tuned situations to help people practise them. A singleplayer mode can do all of that, without seeming to be “training mode”.
I usually use DMC as an example - the game gives you weapons and moves at a gradual rate, and you literally fight hundreds of battles throughout the singleplayer. But none of it feels like “work” or “training” - instead, its playing the game. But there’s no doubt that a person who completes DMC is much better at DMC than when he started. Similarly, RTS games and FPS games often have singeplayer campaigns which do the same thing, gradually introducing units/weapons/situations.
Story/Arcade mode in FGs don’t do this properly. This is an area that could use some improvement, and I think it may yield benefits.
No, I don’t think that’s correct. The correct answer (in this and many other similar conversations) is that popularity is only loosely connected with quality, and there are many other factors that contribute to popularity. And that it’s impossible to reduce the equation any further, to equate popularity with quality somehow.
This means there are 2 conversations that can occur:
- “How do we make our sequel more popular?” -> This involves more than quality.
- “How do we make our sequel better?” -> The answer will vary based on your target audience.
The two topics are mostly seperate (with a small degree of overlap sometimes), and I think it’s incorrect to try and conflate them.
I remember asking this in the MVC3 forums just before the game came out and it turning into a big mess, but how do you expect an in game tutorial mode to prepare a new player for the fact that they are 20 years late to the game with all kinds of hidden techniques being used against them that are taken from other games made by other publishers?
Should the game teach new players what a frame trap is, because it is then going to have to full explain the concept of frames? How about Kara cancelling, or wave dashing or pianoing buttons or option selects or negative edge? what if your character can’t do these things, but someone else in the game can? Should the game teach players that the way moves are listed in the command list isn’t the optimal way to do them? Should the game tell you to try out weird bugs that worked in past games to see if they still work in this game?
Fighting games knowledge builds up from game to game and these are thing thing players with old game experience try out during the first week. Most new players didn’t check MVC3 to see if they could do a guard break the first time they played it but I guarantee you just about every old school competitive MVC2 player tried it just to make sure. Theres nothing Capcom can put into a tutorial that is going to even out the playing field. If you are a new player and want to get better just ask someone for help.
I was showing a friend how to play KOFXIII and he was having trouble with one of the trials, he told me what i was and I immediately said you’re doing the motion wrong, even though he was doing it exactly the way it should have been according to the move list. how much time would he have spent trying to figure that a QCF special when followed by a QCFx2 super still holds the first QCF and only requires one more qcf to perform the super. It honestly never occured to me not to try it like that the first time I played the game, but it never occured to him that something like that might work.
Help me understand how a single player mode would help with the situation above.
I think you’re talking about the getting a player from intermediate -> expert. And you’re mostly right, although having an ingame wiki just like SRK’s wiki would help a lot in exposing more people to those subtle tricks and tips.
I’m usually talking about how to get people from beginner -> intermediate. This means getting used to the controls, learning the moves you can do so they become second nature, understanding how things work and why you do things, etc. These are things the game can teach you (whether in tutorials or via gameplay).
Heh, here’s a thought. Why not an established system for getting people to teach others? Like you can connect your account to another person’s as a “mentor”, and if your student improves in his ladder ranking / kyu ranking, you get benefits also? In an online environment, it means you’ll need online multiplayer training mode.
In an arcade environment, this could be done with people’s Nesica cards or stuff like that.
In an offline environment, I guess tournaments can set up an informal system amongst themselves.
Skullgirls did a good job of teaching what you need to know. Blocking, mixups, block strings, unsafe/safe attacks, adapting to your opponent, ect.
You gotta take your lumps? Because you didn’t join earlier your seen as new? what the fuck does joining SRK "late " gotta do with you knowing or playing fighting games in the 90’s til now, I joined SRK sometime this year or late last year can’t remember, but my point is you’ll rather let somebody talk down to you cause your new? Really? Bro please. Everybody played the same damn games on Dreamcast, Sega, fucking Nintendo, Intelevison the list goes on and on. Stop making a case for yourself, let people be people, and if you want to throw out fuck you’s, and choke on dicks, to defend yourself that your business cause from what I’ve seen people aint holding they’re tongue to make they’re opinion. But yeah this thread is showing true colors and sides that people are on as far Old Skool Vs New Skool. Can we just squash this war of words? Cause this way is way off topic it’s like Adlof Hitler Vs Vader[media=youtube]AFA-rOls8YA[/media]
Skullgirls gets you from 1st to 2nd grade, which would be great if all you went up against was 1st and 2nd graders, but as soon as your opponent is someone outside your house you run the risk of running into anyone. As I said before even a better tutorial system doesn’t realistically stop you from getting pummeled against any type of seasoned opponent
The problem is getting from beginner to intermediate isn’t good enough, because intermediate still sucks. The goals, as challenging as it is, should be to get a player from beginner to not getting stomped in a real match, which is far above intermediate at the moment. It would be a great thing if not getting stomped became the new intermediate.
People decide who they want to help every day, this community is a little too informal for any kind of rigid system for teaching people which is why SRK, Tekkenzaibatsu, dream cancel, dust loop, etc. are so good, theres always someone there with the knowledge even if its not the same person who helped you the last time. I still want to work on a way to provide better learning information to new players but I’ve gotten a bit side tracked with other things recently.
Well that’s noble of you. A good way of helping people. I started one in that Newbie thread feel free to throw in advice if you like.