Hori Hayabusa Joystick/Control Lever Preliminary FAQ... UPDATED with pictures

Tech Talk
1

Okay, no longer delaying this. Putting it up now!

Hayabusa FAQ Version 1.1
Compiled and ordered by GeorgeC

http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/Hayabusa-4_zps2cf50419.jpg

NOTE: The information in this text is up-to-date as of April 30, 2014…
Revisions by the original author and others may follow as new information and corrections flow in.

Hayabusa Part Introduction - mid-2012/June 2012; debuted as exclusive Hori OEM part on Hori Fighting Edge joystick marketed for Sony Playstation 3 and Microsoft XBox 360.
First reviewed in online blogs/websites in late April/early May 2012 by joystick enthusiasts who received pre-production or early production Fighting Edge joysticks from Hori.

More detailed analysis of the Hayabusa itself would wait until late January 2014 when Hori finally did a separate release of the Hayabusa.
Early analyses by Fighting Edge owners indicated a joystick with “Seimitsu-like” performance but without specifics on WHICH Seimitsu joystick the Hayabusa most closely resembled and what specific characteristics the Hayabusa displayed.

The Hayabusa is a digital joystick/control lever with 8-eight directional function. The stock Hayabusa joystick is equipped with non-levered microswitches, a single JLF-spec cloned spring, and a square restrictor gate that is integrated/molded into the baseplate of the assembled joystick stack.

Fully Assembled Hayabusa Joystick Stack
Height is close to 4 inches; roughly equivalent to the LS-32-01 stack in height and very close to the JLF-TP-8YT-SK
The bulk of the Hayabusa base makes it closer to the LS-32-01 in appearance
Without the balltop handle screwed on, the JLF/LS-32/Hayabusa joysticks are closer to 3 inches height.
JLF and Hayabusa shafts have identical faceplate clearances and shaft heights above the pivot bearings.
The LS-32/LS-40 shafts have noteably shorter shaft heights above their pivot bearings. Their faceplate clearance shortages are made up mostly through the use of the Seimitsu SS Mounting Plate that shifts their assembled joystick shafts further upward and against the underside of the faceplate of the joystick case. Since the LS-32/LS-40 have maximum contact with the faceplate underside in that situation, this prevents or impedes useage of a secondary dustwasher on top of the LS-joystick pivots (below the faceplate).

http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/AssembledStickHts_zps4c636e8a.jpg
Pictured left to right: Hori Hayabusa, Sanwa JLF, Seimitsu LS-32-01

Hayabusa Mounting Plate
Hayabusa Mounting Plate has noticeably wider width than the JLF P-1 Mounting Plate but with identical hole positions for screwing on the Mounting Plate and faceplate installations; HMP is interchangeable with JLF P-1 MP but it is recommended to use original Hori Mounting Plate screws with the Hayabusa base with JLF P-1 installations as the screw pitches (distance between threading) of the MP screws are completely different; Hayabusa base uses screws with wider pitch than the JLF base’s to install the HMP. It is highly recommended to reuse the Hayabusa MP screws in situations where it may be more desirable to use the JLF P-1MP itself with the Hayabusa base.

The Hayabusa base is incompatible with Seimitsu mounting plates…
It would be recommended to use the JLF P-1 Mounting Plate in situations where the width of the Hayabusa Mounting Plate might impact interior plastics or create situations where further internal joystick case mods might otherwise be necessary.
The HMP in general has proven to be compatible with most mass-production joystick cases on market. Situations in specific joystick cases (Agetec/Sega Dreamcast Joystick, PDP/Qanba Injustic joystick) cases do exist where an alternate Mounting Plate (JLF P-1MP) or no mounting plate might be preferrable, though.

http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/CompatibleMPs_zpse46d321b.jpg
Pictured: Hayabusa MP by Sanwa JLF P-1. Note greater thickness of Hayabusa MP which may necessitate replacement of stock Hori Hayabusa MP and use of Sanwa JLF P-1 in some joystick cases…

http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/HMPonTP1_zpsd25c21c6.jpg
Pictured: Overlay of Hayabusa Mounting Plate over Sanwa JLF P-1 MP. Holes lines up exactly!

Balltop Handle
35mm Japanese arcade part spec; most similar to the Sanwa balltop spec but with thicker metal screw insert in the balltop plastic;
flat area on bottom of Hayabusa balltop handle similar to Sanwa balltop handle. More metal area as opposed to more flat plastic on
Sanwa balltop…

http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/JLFHStickBalltops_zpsb085b93e.jpg
Pictured: Red Sanwa balltop handle, black Hayabusa balltop handle

9mm length screw-in area; 6mm diameter screw thread
Balltop handle adds roughly 1-inch height to Hayabusa stack (fully asssembled joystick); actual height addition just over 1-inch or close to 26mm

Hayabusa Shaft
For all intents and purposes, the Hayabusa shaft and shaft parts are clones to the JLF shaft; the Hayabusa shaft is incompatible with the Seimitsu LS-32 shaft as the LS-32 shaft is thicker and parts between these two are incompatible;
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/3shaftcomparison_zps760bf101.jpg
Pictured left to right: Hori Hayabusa, Sanwa JLF, and Seimitsu LS-32 shaft assemblies

other LS-joystick shafts are thinner than the JLF and Hayabusa; like the LS-32, their parts are incompatible with the JLF and Hayabusa with notable exceptions => RE: Seimitsu shaftcover mod to fit shaftcover onto JLF and Hayabusa; the inner hole of the Seimitsu dustwasher (LS-40/-55/-56/-58 style or LS-32) needs to be widened to allow useage with the Hayabusa and JLF (covered) shafts.

It is the opinion of several Hayabusa owners that the plastics used in the Hayabusa shaft assembly are higher-quality and more durable than both Seimitsu and Sanwa parts.

Noteable changes from the JLF: black-painted shaft, black-painted E-ring, dark grey pivot bearing with indentations; JLF pivot bearing is solid white plastic with no indentations; E-ring retainer is different on the Hayabusa shaft
Actuator, spring holder, spring, metal base washer all appear to be JLF-spec clones… plastics where used, again, may be higher quality
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/HStickJLFShaftAssemblies_zpsf4cb89c0.jpg
Pictured: Hayabusa and JLF shaft assembly pieces

Hayabusa Shaft Cover and Dustwashers
The Hayabusa shaft cover is so far available only in molded black plastic. The shaftcover is JLF-spec and appears indistinguishable from the Sanwa-manufactured part.
The Hayabusa shaft cover is cross-compatible with the JLF. All aftermarket JLF shaft covers are compatible with the Hayabusa shaft… these include aftermarket shaftcover choices from Sanwa, Mad Catz, Qanba, and the custom-made aluminum JLF shaft covers available through arcade parts vendors.
The Hayabusa dustwasher is produced to JLF-spec with respect to both shaft hole width and overall width. The differences from the Sanwa JLF (shaftcover hole) dustwasher included shorter dustwasher height and an upper dustwasher texture that is sand-like as opposed to the mosaic/“broken tile” texture of the JLF dustwasher. Again, all aftermarket alternate JLF dustwashers are also compatible with the Hayabusa shaft. These include dustwashers from Sanwa, Mad Catz, Qanba, arcade parts vendors, Art Hong/Tek Innovations plexi dustwashers, and the aluminum dustwashers generally available with aluminum shaftcover kits.
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/ShaftDustcoversHStickJLF_zps99fcc6fa.jpg
Pictured: Hori Hayabusa shaft cover and dustwasher on left half of picture; Sanwa JLF counterparts on right

Hayabusa Base
The Hayabusa base uses JLF-spec clone shaft parts with JLF-spec attachment points for the Hayabusa Mounting Plate. The Hayabusa base may also be mounted onto “non-universal” HRAP faceplates (HRAP 1b, “HRAP-lite” licensed variants for the PS2, “vanilla” HRAP 3) without the HMP. The Hayabusa base has screw-on attachment points in common areas to the JLF base’s screw-in “wing” positions.
Note that the difference in mounting height without the HMP attached is roughly 1.25mm

http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/CommonHRAP3MountPts_zps3c66c30a.jpg
Pictured: “Wing attachment” points in common between the Hori Hayabusa base and the Sanwa JLF; joystick bases are shown ‘naked’ without the usual mounting plates screwed on; JLF wing attachments are shown circled in blue lining up with common wing attachment points in red on the Hayabusa base

The assembled Hayabusa base appearance, bulk, and general base construction is more like the LS-32-01 than the JLF.
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/BottomAssembliesHStickLS32_zps74dccc7d.jpg
Pictured above: Hayabusa base versus Seimitsu LS-32-01
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/BottomAssembliesHStickJLF_zps75e42cdb.jpg
Pictured above: Hayabusa base versus Sanwa JLF

Hayabusa Microswitches
The OEM Hayabusa microswitches appear to be non-levered versions of the Matsushita/Panasonic microswitches used in the Seimitsu LS-56 series joystick. Unlike the LS-32-01 and JLF substrates, the Hayabusa microswitches are NOT soldered into a PCB board. Instead, the Hayabusa microswitches have soldered wiring connections that lead into a common 5-prong adapter on a very small PCB wafer situated on the outside of the Hayabusa. The Hayabusa 5-prong adapter is in a position similar to the 5-prong interfaces on the LS-32-01 and JLF.
It appears that only two of the H-stick microswitches share a common ground wire.
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/BasesSwitches_zps68b18680.jpg
Pictured above, left to right: Bases of the Hayabusa, Sanwa JLF, and Seimitsu LS-32-01 with baseplates and restrictor gates removed. The visible microtabs of the Hayabusa base microswitches have been highlighted in yellow…

Levered microswitches of the LS-56 variety can be used in the Hayabusa with a minor Dremel modification to H-base and no soldering required. This can be accomplished by simply removing the internal parts of the existing microswitches and swapping with the levered parts of the replacments. The original casings of the stock H-base microswitches are reused by prying them open with a small screwdriver and snapping back together after internal part replacement…

Alternately, replacement LS-56 variety microswitches with levers can be mounted replacing the original Hayabusa microswitches
completely. However, more extensive base modding is required since 0.187 prong tabs can impact the existing Hayabusa base; switch
wiring may not have enough clearance with the 0.187 quick disconnects used with this modification… in addition to making room for the LS-56 microswitch levered tabs, holes would have to be cut in the H-base to allow the 0.187 tabs clearance. In this case, the 5-prong adapter can be discarded and replaced with a converter harness as used with other 0.187-tabbed joysticks (such as the Crown CWJ-303FK and LS-32/non-PCB version). This is a more involved modification but bypasses the issue of desoldering the original microswitches and having to solder new microswitches should the original microswitches fail.
Swapping out of entire microswitch assemblies is generally easier in the long run than desoldering OEM parts or replacing small
lever parts in the original microswitch casings.

Hayabusa Restrictor Gate
The restrictor gate on the Hayabusa is integrated into the baseplate of the Hayabusa stack. The assembly itself is held together by four base screws running through the baseplate similar to the LS-32-01 and the Hori OEM joystick on the American Tekken 5 10th Anniversary joystick.
It is not practical to top the main restrictor gate with an subguide gate as is the case with the LS-32(-01) and LS-40(-01). No screw-in points exist to place a subguide on top of the H-base and the actuator sits too low for a modifying subguide to be useful.
The entire Hayabusa baseplate should be removed and replaced with a new restrictor gate part or baseplate for restricted movement (2-way/4-way) or octo restrictor guides if desired.
A simple mod has proven that it is possible to integrate a JLF octo-gate onto the Hayabusa; again, the stock Hayabusa
baseplate must be removed… there are common points on the JLF restrictor gate assembly that can be drilled out for screw-on
installation of the JLF square- or octo-gate… This mod approach was first used to integrate JLF’s (without the JP-1MP) onto the Hori mounting bracket on the American Tekken 5 10th Anniversary joysticks.
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/SideView5prongs_zps1aefe547.jpg
Pictured: Bases of Hayabusa, JLF, and LS-32-01 with square restrictor gates clearly visible.

Abbreviations:
H-stick = assembled Hayabusa joystick stack complete with the Hayabusa Mounting Plate
H-base = Hayabuse base; generally referring to the plastic sections of the Hayabusa joystick and specifically the areas which
contain the microswitches and baseplate with integrated restrictor gate.
HMP = Hori Mounting Plate specifically designed for the Hayabusa but with anchor and screw-in points in common with
the JLF P-1 Mounting Plate
JLF P1-MP / JP-1MP = JLF P-1 Mounting Plate; the alternate, most compatible MP for the Hayabusa

Thanks to for Moonchilde, Darksakul, and Sethian0 for their observations and practical Hayabusa mod guides.
If I forgot to acknowledge anyone else’s input, please tell me and I will put your name in on future FAQ revisions!
I have 22 photos taken of the Hayabusa, JLF, and LS-32-01 assembled and disassembled… I will incorporate these into the FAQ over the next few days…

Another post will follow this FAQ with my initial impressions on this joystick.

2

Do NOT expect scientific measurements in this post! You can measure lengths and widths of joysticks but describing how throw and motions feel is still very subjective… Experience with hardware/games differs from person to person. The usefulness of a lot of what anyone writes about controller hardware in reviews depends on the experiences and variety of controllers the reader himself/herself has actually used, too. Reviews in many ways are generally more useful to people who have played with multiple controllers… they are perhaps less useful to people who are new to videogames and using joysticks with fighting games. Experience counts for something on both sides of a critique.
Please keep in mind that the following post is personal opinion and not absolute fact!
With that in mind, please do not take my personal opinions as an insult to your play preferences… That is NOT the intention of this post!

Impressions of the Hori Hayabusa Joystick/Control Lever

Initial impressions…

First Day — (I received my Hayabusa as part of the early orders; I got mine in late January/early February 2014)
First 15 minutes: solid joystick but I didn’t see a great improvement over the Seimitsu LS-32 initially.

Second session, extended 45-minute play: Boy was I wrong! I played with the Hayabusa on Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD which gives me the most control fits of any PS3 fighting game (which I own) aside from MK vs DC. I was noticeably hitting Dragon Punch moves easier and the joystick just felt “smoother” in general. The longer I played, the better the Hayabusa felt to me. This is the first time that’s happened to me with a new control lever! I think Hori has something here…!

Post-weekend one with the Hayabusa, impressions to the present-day
Later play – yep,the Hayabusa definitely feels more comfortable than the other Japanese control levers I’ve used! Much better than the Sanwa JLF in my opinion. If you’re coming from the LS-32 – which a stock/near-stock Hayabusa is most like --, the Hayabusa should be a very comfortable fit with very few if none of the vices the LS-32 has been shown to have… ie, no pivot bearing popping, occasionally mushy switch engaging, etc. I wouldn’t call it a huge, 100%-200% improvement over the LS-32 or any other LS-joystick I’ve used. I was
hoping for maybe 5-10% improvement in my case. It feels something like 10-15% better for me which is much more than I expected.

Again, this is highly subjective… Mileage will vary according to the user and the extent of the mods they may perform on the Hayabusa.

I like the Hayabusa pretty much as-is. I only did a very minor spring tweak – wrapped the stock spring into an LS-32 spring – and the Hayabusa feels good to me.

Impressions of Hayabusa performance:
Throw = most like an LS-32; I’d say the Hayabusa throw is slightly greater than the LS-32’s but it wasn’t something I couldn’t get used to

Engage = again, most like the LS-32 with the caveat that I think the switches engage better and more crisply on the Hayabusa. That was weird to me coming from levered microswitches on the LS-joysticks. I didn’t expect non-levered, tabbed microswitches to perform better and that was one of my biggest concerns about the Hayabusa from earlier reviews!

Roll = sorry to sound like a broken record, but it really does feel like an LS-32 in this instance (again!); very nice, crisp response and smooth on rolling motions. One of the most comfortable joysticks in this respect (aside from the LS-32) that I’ve used with the default square gate. I really never got used to the square gate on the JLF!

Hitting Diagonals = better than any other Japanese control lever I’ve used! I particularly noticed this on Super Street Fighter II Turbo which is notorious for wonky, unforgiving controls on some characters…

Dash Moves and Re-centering = I like to play the Darkstalkers/Vampire games. I tried to play CPS-2 era games with the JLF but it just didn’t work well for me with earlier fighting games. Super SF2 Turbo and the Alpha games are particulary picky on control input timing…
The JLF is even worse in performance when it comes to executing Tap-Tap/Dash moves and re-centering!
I like to play with Demitri in Darkstalkers 2/3 and it just doesn’t do me good to struggle with a joystick that is just sluggish when performing Dash forward moves…! The JLF’s okay for SF IV and later-era games that aren’t as stingy on control inputs but it’s just awful on games like Darkstalkers and Tekken where you need a joystick with moderate or short throw and very good/excellent re-centering response. The LS-joysticks I’ve played with (LS-32, LS-40, LS-58) and the Hayabusa just destroy the JLF in this aspect of performance, period, IMHO.
The LS-joysticks and Hayabusa all have excellent Dash/Tap-Tap/Re-centering Response.

I stopped using the JLF well over 18 months now and won’t be going back. That joystick just has too many control/performance issues where I sit and generally speaking the only after-market parts I want to buy for joysticks are alternate-color/style balltop handles, shaft covers, and dustwashers. Aside from minor spring tweaks, I just don’t like doing involved joystick/control lever mod projects, period!
I feel that uses up valuable time that I could put to better use playing games, decorating/designing art for new joystick cases, or just relaxing in general, period! Again, that’s a personal predilection… I know some people love to spend time on involved mods – I’m just not one of those people which is why I swapped control lever brands from Sanwa to Seimitsu in the first place! It just so happens that in my case I liked a stock control lever with more LS-32 style performance… the Hayabusa is basically like that but with somewhat
better performance, easier base-modding options (should I choose to do those!), better construction, better plastic parts, and infinitely more compatible across the board with JLF after-market parts!

Moddability prospects of the Hayabusa –

  1. The Hayabusa shaft is cloned from the JLF! Every aftermarket part that slips onto the JLF shaft is going to fit onto the Hayabusa shaft/base. Might want to be careful with the actuators, though. I can’t prove this myself because I sure didn’t see or measure a noticeable difference (!)—, BUT the Hayabusa actuator might be a little bit thicker according to other Hayabusa users (and more extreme modders). Getting a thicker actuator unless you’re not satisfied with the throw might not be advisable.

Immediately compatible parts with the Hayabusa, no mods necessary(!) = all JLF-/LS-series spec balltop handles, all bat handles that fit the the JLF or LS-joysticks, all JLF-compatible shaftcovers AND dustwashers, all JLF-compatible springs including but not necessarily limited to JLF/JLF-custom/LS-32/LS-55 springs;
ALL known JLF-clone shafts and JLF replacement shafts are compatible with the Hayabusa base = hollowed out JLF shafts for LED, Link shaft for JLF

Parts that require minor mods to fit the Hayabusa shaft = Seimitsu LS-40/-55/-56/-56 shaft covers and dustwashers; if you widen the inner hole a bit, an LS-32 dustwasher will fit over the Hayabusa shaftcover comfortably, too

  1. Microswitches – I’m not touching these myself since I’m happy with a near-stock Hayabusa but others have demonstrated microswitch mods that are super-easy (in my opinon) for the Hayabusa. I think if you stick to LS-56 spec microswitches you’ll be fine… especially if you want levered microswitches.
    The near-mandatory basewall hole mods for the 0.187-tab, complete microswitch replacements are also good if you want to skip the issue of having to desolder the existing microswitches (or swap existing microswitch insides for levered parts) and use a converter harness instead of the 5-prong adapter.
    The advantage of making the Hayabusa base mod is that it facilitates easier, complete microswitch replacement for the future when you DO need full microswitch replacements!
    It’s all good at any rate as far as I’m concerned. At least parts are readily available to rejuvenate the Hayabusa in the unlikely event Hori stopped making this excellent joystick.

  2. Future prospects for the Hayabusa look good despite a slow rollout separate from the Fighting Edge joystick. Thus far, Hori has made a deal to provide Taito with Hayabusa and Kuro parts for the Taito Viewlix panels used in Japanese arcades. Several arcade parts vendors may be in talks with Hori to at the very least sell the Hayabusa from their webstores.
    Hori has also extended support for its new Hayabusa and Kuro parts by installing them in new, limited production HRAP V3’s available through Amazon.jp and select videogame import shops. The so-called HRAP V3 “Hayabusa” joysticks are available in wired and wireless editions. I’d say there’s a fair chance Hori will probably market future mass-market editions of the HRAP (likely for PS4 and XBox One) with the Hayabusa and Kuro parts installed, too. I would not expect PS3/XBox 360 Hayabusa offerings to extend beyond the Fighting Edge and limited edition HRAP V3 models, though.
    Hori recently improved Fighting Edge distribution to Canada through Amazon.ca which extends the availability of the Hayabusa in the English-speaking world… In general, Hori really needs to improve distribution and get more of its product sold throughout North America and Europe at the very least!
    The built-in support for existing after-market JLF-compatible parts makes future support for the joystick very solid. One of the best moves, IMHO, that Hori made besides modelling Hayabusa performance after the Seimitsu LS-32 was basing the shaft assembly of the Hayabusa after the Sanwa JLF…
    Ironically, the performance criteria Hori established for the Hayabusa control lever may end up hurting sales of the joystick that the Hayabusa resembles most – the Seimitsu LS-32. If any existing arcade parts manufacture has the most to lose from the Hayabusa, it’s probably Seimitsu.

3

Awesome post ;_; i want one but horiusa not shipping internationally makes me very very sad

4

The photos I intend to put up by the end of the week will show specific areas on the Hayabusa base for mounting and highlight similarities with the LS-32 and JLF. In addition, they’ll show huge differences between the H-stick/Hayabusa and the other two common-production/most popular Japanese control levers on the market.

IF you want to see specific base-mod areas for microswitches, you’ll want to look at the beginning/first page of the Hayabusa Unboxing Thread. Moonchilde posted nice pics of the switch area and shows the mod to increase the base area for gated microswitch levers. A few pages later, Sethian0 has pics up of his mod to install full 0.187-tab microswitch replacements. That mod is a bit more involved than Moonchilde’s but probably is going to be the one more brave people (not afraid to do mods) will do whenever they have to change out their Hayabusa microswitches unless Hori comes up with its own in-house solution… One thing that’s convenient about the JLF is that Sanwa realized there was a market for replacement microswitches and produced JLF substrates with the microswitches pre-soldered separate from full JLF assemblies. JLF substrates are easy to source from parts vendors domestically in the US and Europe. You don’t have to special-order from Japan which is very convenient! That’s something Seimitsu has yet to do and you have to source microswitch replacements/LS-substrates from Japan or cannabilize your own sticks to replace the switch parts on the LS-joysticks – at present – unless you want to go ahead and buy the microswitches separate from US electronics vendors and then go about desoldering and resoldering microswitches on joysticks.

In short, the Hayabusa is built with JLF-patterned parts but with a distinct Seimitsu feel.
I think it’s better than the other in-production Japanese digital joysticks. It feels higher-quality and has more accurate control response. That’s just the stock Hayabusa… You can tinker with it and customize it to however you want it seems.
If you don’t like the throw on the LS-32, that is probably the biggest issue you’ll have with the Hayabusa.
On the other hand, IF you like the LS-32 and its general control behavior, I think you’ll be surprised to see that the Hayabusa actually improved on the LS-32 quite a bit while keeping the more comfortable aspects of that controller intact.
For modders, whether Hori intended it to be this way or not, the Hayabusa is just made to be tinkered with if you want. The fact that it’s ultra-compatible with the JLF aftermarket parts means it’s at least as customizable as the JLF. It’s a much more convenient joystick to buy aftermarket parts for than any of the LS-joysticks… You don’t have to thin out JLF shaft covers to fit it and all the balltop/bat handles will fit it straight away. At least modding Seimitsu shaft covers and dustwashers for it won’t be any more involved than modding JLF shaft covers for the LS-32!

5

I do have this, the list of Hori sticks that are compatible with the Hayabusa according to Hori Japan.
This is no way a full list and the list been translated to Engrish by Google translate

Spoiler

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/darksakul/hori1_zps114f18b1.png

6

Side by side pics and analysis between JLF and Hayabusa components from Moon’s unboxing thread.

Shaft

[details=Spoiler]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/gumbyslide/IMAG0398.jpg

The shafts are (EDIT: nearly) identical. The only difference is the e-clip groove. The Hayabusa shaft has a larger gap for the e-clip making it much easier to remove and install. This means that hollow shaft, titanium, stainless, Twist, and The Link shafts will swap in with no issues.[/details]

Spring

[details=Spoiler]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/gumbyslide/IMAG0397.jpg

The springs are pretty much the same if not identical. (EDIT: There is actually something like half of a coil more on the Hayabusa spring but they are the same height.)The JLF is on the right, Hayabusa on the left.[/details]

Spring Flange

[details=Spoiler]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/gumbyslide/IMAG0395.jpg

The spring flanges are NOT identical. You can see the differences clearly in the picture. JLF on the right.[/details]

Actuator

[details=Spoiler]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/gumbyslide/IMAG0396.jpg

The JLF actuator on the right and Hayabusa on the left. They appear the same and they ARE the same…design. I may be wrong here because I don’t have a caliper at home to do precise measurements but I did hold the bell part of the actuators together sideways on a flat surface and noticed that the Busa unit was just barely peeking over the edge of the stock JLF actuator. When I did the same test with the Busa and a .5mm oversized PAS actuator the overhang disappeared. My guess is that measurements will show that the stock Hayabusa actuator is actually .5mm oversized in comparison to a JLF.[/details]

7

iNENDoi,

I’ve got pics of that stuff that I haven’t posted yet and frankly I see very little difference between the JLF shaft and the Hayabusa shaft/parts. I’m inclined to agree with others that the major differences are in the choice of plastics and the fact that the Hayabusa shaft and E-ring are painted black. Everything seems to be the same! I think Moonchilde might have been the first to comment on the actuator being different.
I’m not surprised you’d have to use calipers to do small measurements! These are small parts to begin with and we’re talking about fractions of a millimeter’s difference when those differences do show up…
My one big criticism of the Hayabusa would be that it’s such a bulky joystick. It performs well, yes, but did it have to be so bulky in the end? That difference shows up in installations. Thankfully, you DO NOT have to remove half the joystick to install it with the Hori Mounting Plate. There’s no PCB overhanging the mounting points like on the LS-32-/-40-01’s. I was able to install it and remove it without taking the stack apart every time like I do with the LS-32. (When I can, I use the 4 corner mounting points on the LS-32 Mounting Plate. You’re only forced to go with the middle mounting points on the newer HRAP’s like the HRAP V3/VX, HRAP N3/NX, and the HRAP VLX.)
I’m still amazed that something with JLF clone parts feels so much like a Seimitsu joystick…

Darksakul,

I’ll put the list of checked-out compatible HRAP’s again in the near future. This is stuff that I own and could certify. I think it’s safe to say that pretty much every Hori HRAP case, revised Fighting Stick N3/NX (the ones that had Sanwa parts), HRAP VLX, and Fighting Edge is compatible with the Hayabusa. That seems to be the case with the Mad Catz Tournament Edition joysticks, too, but I haven’t heard from as many non-Hori owners about Hayabusa installations.
Pretty much every joystick case I own is compatible with the Hayabusa or at worst you only have to replace the Hori Mounting Plate with the JLF P1 Mounting Plate. The Hayabusa is immediately mountable in every HRAP joystick case I’ve got except the T5 HRAP-variant where you have to use a Hori restrictor gate with the Hayabusa OR drill out the original Hori mounting bracket on the T5 faceplate and create a new stick mount area with screws. The majority of licensed HRAP’s for the PS2 use mounting brackets identical to the HRAP 3 (vanilla) for the PS3 so you can install with or without the existing Hori Mounting Plate. The difference in stack height with the Hori Mounting Plate installed is only about 1.25mm from what I measured. You can install the Hayabusa just like the JLF on the HRAP 3 but have to unscrew and remove the majority of the Hayabusa stack because the mounting “wing areas” on the Hayabusa are covered by the stack. You definitely have to use the JLF P1 Mounting Plate with the Agetec joystick case because of internal plastic issues. The Hori Mounting Plate is just too wide to fit into the Agetec case. That could be the case with installation in the PDP Injustice joystick, too, but I don’t own the Injustice Joystick…

8

The e-ring slot is wider on the Hayabusa, the flange stands taller on the JLF, the actuator is slightly larger in diameter, and the spring has 1/2 to 1 coil more than the JLF.

9

E-ring slot allows for easier angled removal on Hayabusa, JLF slot is a straight fixed slot that does not allow for removing at an angle. This means you don’t have as much leverage since you can’t pull the e-ring out at an angle. No, the shafts are not identical.

10

Funny…

I didn’t see a difference in the spring from the JLF to be honest.
It’s been so long since I’ve played with any JLF or LS-32 with stock spring tension… The Hayabusa still felt maybe a bit less tense than the LS-32. The LS-32 definitely feels tighter than the JLF or LS-40. Only the LS-58 feels looser to me than the JLF.
I’ll take your your word on the E-ring, though.
Shafts are close enough though that people don’t seem to have problems using Link’s with the Hayabusa base.

I guess “imperfect” clones is a better way to term it than identical. They’re close enough where it counts with most people. I guess the biggest changes most people will make with the Hayabusa will probably be the ball handle and springs. I’m glad that I don’t have to do all the work that I’ve had to do to accommodate JLF parts on the LS-32 anymore!
I took the E-rings off my sample JLF and Hayabusa and frankly didn’t notice a difference in removal angle. They came off the same way with the usual micro screwdriver I use to take E-rings off all my joystick levers. I’ve gotten used to using needle nose pliers to put the E-rings back on the stick shafts. That seems to work easiest for me and avoids having to look for a rag or try to put that metal back on barehanded which I wouldn’t recommend.

11

I would say improved clone, since everything about it is higher quality and more user friendly. E-ring situation is a pretty good example. E-ring on Hayabusa can be pulled at a 45 degree angle while JLF has to be 0 degree, so that’s why it’s a bit more user friendly. It’s a nice tweak if you have to remove the e-ring for tweak testing whatever, lol.

12

FAQ updated with pictures of joystick bases and assembly parts…

ADDED to this post: Pics illustrating the problem with Hayabusa installation on older/‘Classic-style’ HRAP’s.

Pictured below: As long as the Hayabusa 5-pin adapter prong is pointing AWAY from the 30mm pushbuttons, installation is fine… there are no conflicts/overlaps. There is a problem with this installation, though…
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/InsideHRAP3SA-1_zps6cb02853.jpg

The joystick’s 5-pin prong is SUPPOSED to point right for correct directional signaling. The problem with this as illustrated below is that that 5-pin prong sits directly on top of the “X” button position as shown below…
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae47/GeorgeC1970/InsideHRAP3SA-3_zps1c58653a.jpg

You CAN remove the ‘X’ button and reposition the line in another button slot but it’s pretty much mandatory that you have to use an ‘X’ button for most games on PS2/PS3! The ‘X’ button is used to confirm a lot of menu choices and even as a ‘Start’ button in many games including fighting games. You can rotate the ‘X’ button so that the harness cable adapter doesn’t sit directly on top of the microswitch assembly and still keep the ‘X’ button in the original position. Another possible solution is using a 1/16" plexi overlay on top of the faceplate. This will shift all the pushbuttons upwards at least 1/16" in elevation and give more ‘breathing room’/space for the joystick harness.

The only HRAP 3 that I’m aware of where the 5-pin header on the joystick PCB doesn’t point right is the HRAP 3 SE variant. The LS-32-01 has a PCB 5-pin adapter prong in the same position as the Hayabusa and would have had the same issue with the ‘X’ button that the Hayabusa has in most every HRAP 2 and HRAP 3 installation I’m aware of. Instead, Hori modified the PCB in the HRAP 3 SE a bit so that LS-32-01’s 5-pin prong can be rotated to the ‘down’ position (aka ‘six o’clock’ position on a clock) and have the joystick harness install there.

On the Mad Catz TE’s and later-edition HRAP’s (HRAP V3/VX, HRAP N3/NX) the joystick PCB 5-pin prong points to the left/away/“9 o’clock” position with respect to the 30mm buttons.

I really think this is the only reason Hori won’t certify the Hayabusa as being compatible with the full range of HRAP’s starting with the original HRAP 1 models on the PS2… The Hayabusa mounts in every physical configuration of HRAP exactly like the JLF does so it’s not a mounting plate or non-universal mounting bracket adapter issue.

13

Nice work dude. Very thorough. I expected nothing less. The only thing I disagree with you on is the spring holder. It’s slightly different. I have no clue if the very slight change makes any difference in performance but they have a slight height difference on the shorter of the sides.

14

I was watching an unboxing of the stick and was definitely more curious about it. Thanks for taking the time to post so much detail as i focused on the areas that piqued my interest the most.

15

I just wire the Joystick (correctly) with the harness pointing away from the buttons and re-wire the harness.

Any ways in your photo, hori provided the WRONG connector for the joystick harness, this is when you get your self a Seimitsu HP-5 or as Sanwa JLF-H wire harness and splice 5 little wires.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

I seriously surprised how many people on SRK TT that can’t redo a joystick wire harness.
Really, if you can’t cut and reattach 5 simple wires correctly you should have no business in stick modding.

16

I think by now many have understood that I’m not fond of Hori’s pivot housing system (officially called " V cut housing cam structure" ) , but putting this past debate aside, the conical housing of the hayabusa ( which is shaped as a V on a cut diagram hence the comemrcial name) is not mentioned anywhere in this FAQ when it should really be, since it is a major difference when comparing to sanwa and seimitsu sticks, and the major commercial sales pitch from Hori, so imho this detail should be present in the description whether we agree with its efficiency or not!

Is not mentioned also the fact that the pivot is grooved (not indented) and sitting in a polished ungrooved housing whereas on all other sanwa and seimitsu sticks, the pivots are polished and not grooved, sitting in a grooved spherical housing. Beginners who never opened up their sticks may not notice this detail so it should be mentioned.

17

You’re probably right…

What I saw in shaft design didn’t seem to be a huge difference. I do think Moonchilde has the point on the lubricating plastics. If I were going to switch shafts on the Hayabusa for a JLF LED shaft or a Link shaft, at the very least I would transfer the Hayabusa pivot bearing and actuator over to the new shaft. All the parts would port over for an ‘empty shaft’ obviously but at minimum those would be the parts I’d keep and not swap for JLF counterparts, period. All other things considered, I don’t think the E-clip, spring, and spring retainer are markedly different or impact performance. The pivot bearing really IS different; the actuator, self-lubing or not, does not feel like the JLF actuator part but that could be also because of different gate designs between the Hayabusa and JLF.

I was definitely wrong on the throw of the Hayabusa versus the JLF but remember I had NOT played with the JLF in over a year when I got my Hayabusa. I went back again and tried my sole JLF (mounted now in an HRAP V3 SA) and I was surprised by a few things and it answered some of my questions and doubts. The JLF throw is more like the LS-32 and I feel that the Hayabusa has a greater throw than the LS-32. Funny thing is that the greater throw distance on the Hayabusa doesn’t affect my timing all that much. It’s still a very comfortable joystick for me… I’m finding out that as I play more with different joysticks, I’m definitely on the moderate/medium/slightly-greater-than-medium throw comfort zone. Shorter/short throw joysticks aren’t as comfortable for me.
The Hayabusa definitely corners better on diagonal movements and switch activation than the JLF or LS-32 but for different reasons. Versus LS-32, I think one of the big keys has to be the Hayabusa’s microswitches – I like how it hits the LS-56 type microswitches better than how the LS-32 actuator hits the -'32 micros. The LS-32 at times, depending on game, can feel sluggish when it hits the microswitches and doesn’t hit the switches solidly all the time. Is it the microswitch tension, the switch gates, or the LS-32 shaft actuator design??? I really don’t know for certain but I like the feel better on the Hayabusa. It’s not a huge difference that plays out on every game but it is there.
Versus JLF, again, I’ll repeat that I don’t think the JLF has the best restrictor gate design out there. It doesn’t appear to matter to me whether it’s the JLF octo or square gate being used. The gate designs may be a bit too thick and the actuator may not be the best design, either. It bugs me how the JLF actuator rubs against that THING and the gate seems to impact some timed movements. The JLF gate is bugging me on every game out there. It’s just not very ergonomic. I like the gate designs better on the LS-32 and Hayabusa for sure. I’m very comfortable with the square gates on the LS-joysticks and Hayabusa.
Honestly, if the JLF had a different restrictor gate design it might not feel all that different from the LS-32. In the roll and throw, it’s close to the LS-32. I take back what I said about recentering because I tried it again with a certain game that I do dashes on all the time and it didn’t seem that bad. As much as I sometimes miss some diagonals because of mushy LS-32 switches, the gate design of the JLF seems to exacerbate that same situation.

18

Good job GeorgeC! I like reading your posts there’s always helpful information.

19

George, have you tried the kowal actuator in a JLF? Controversy aside, the thing works really well with a JLF at addressing many of your usual lamentations about it.

20

I really, really don’t like tweaking joysticks that much.
If a stick design is giving me fits, it’s usually one or more parts of the basic design. Honestly, for me it’s been more convenient to just switch brands and try something else than buy a bunch of replacement parts and literally end spending as much as I would just trying and experimenting with another stick design.
With joysticks, I’d rather buy parts to customize the look of the joystick (alternate color balltop handles, shaft covers and dustwashers) or replace worn-out pieces like microswitches and springs. I decided a couple of years ago I wasn’t going to play the game many JLF-users were playing with after-market parts to try and improve the basic joystick… I just noticed that wasn’t working for a lot of people, period. I went through my own octo-gate phase and I know that didn’t work for me.
There is also a point where a joystick just gets changed too much and it might as well be given a new name. The LS-40 evolved from minor changes to the LS-32 but it’s still a different joystick. The Hayabusa, as much as it’s patterned after a JLF in many of the basics is not a JLF. It has a totally different base that’s a blend between the LS-32 and JLF design philosophies.
I tried replacement actuators on the LS-32 and the changes unsettled me. I definitely couldn’t use the larger replacement actuator, period, and I was barely able to adjust to the smaller one. The LS-32, for all its faults, is something I’m generally comfortable with in near-stock condition. IF I couldn’t get the LS-32 to do what I wanted at least 70-85% of the time, I wouldn’t bother with it… It’s still a very good joystick. Half the mods I’ve done on the LS-32’s are done just to make those control levers easier to take off and repair. The Hayabusa worked even better for me and I still only did a minor spring tweak on that joystick, too.
I tested those LS-32 replacement actuators against the Zippyy short shaft/LS-32 clone stick, too, and the results were even worse for me! The Zippyy, btw, has lower-tension microswitches than the stock LS-32… don’t know if that made the big difference in why the actuators worked out even worse for me on that control lever.