I think this should be emphasized more, so I’m quoting it. The difference between fearing Chun and respecting her abilities is very subtle indeed.
Since other people have, I’m just gonna post some random thoughts of mine that don’t necessarily relate directly to the original post…
One thing Ryan mentioned to me recently I think touches on why 3s Chun seems more problematic in US 3s more than Japanese was that in US tournaments, you see people approach rounds more cautiously as opposed to Japanese players who go all out from the beginning because of standard 1 game single elim format. In a best of 3 format, a difficult matchup becomes more difficult. It’s harder to beat a 3-7 matchup twice than once. Plus, Chun is arguably the best counterpick in any situation. I’m sure everyone knows some player who mains some mid/low tier character and Chun, or some mid/low tier character and Ken. Those people would have no place in Japan.
If counterpicking is allowed in tournaments, then sure, why not take advantage, but its just ugly to me to see some player start with Necro or somebody like that, lose, and then switch to Chun second game, not because they are switching to Chun, but because they are giving up on their main. I could never feel good by winning with a Chun or Ken counterpick because I spend probably <5% of my practice time on those characters when compared to my main. When I play in tournament, I want to show how strong my main is, and clearly thats how Japanese players feel too.
I guess I can be called a hypocrite in a way because almost every Denjin tournament has not been single elim and/or 1 game, but sadly nobody wants to play in tournaments like that. Maybe it would be better in the long run for 3s players, maybe it wouldn’t be. I don’t really know, but I definitely think it contributes to how people feel about Chun in 3s.
going to try to address this topic without straying too far off.
chun is the best character in the game and is very strong. she is not “broken” though. if she were broken, then every single tournament we’d see chun lis winning and only chun li, and this is not the case.
the players who are the top chun li’s in japan are not called tier whores because everyone has respect for their knowledge and skill. nuki has a solid ken and makoto, and mov and rikimaru have shown their game knowledge with many other characters. they have a high 3rd strike IQ.
i can understand people complaining about chun only if they play necro/alex/oro. i will understand this after they’ve experienced top chun li play.
in america it happens that a handful of the best players play chun li (as mentioned before this is due to $$). also, you have to keep in mind that ricky/justin don’t play 3s as a main game. amir is the only chun player who is a main 3rd strike player. if i played nearly every single game (though i dont understand why) im sure id play the best character or close to it also.
In my opinion, the upper half of the cast (yun, mak, ken, dud, yang, gouki, urien, ryu) can definitely contend with her. the rest of the cast its definitely possible especially if youre not playing nuki/mov/rikimaru. example, tecchi is a strong chun li in japan but lost to TM convincingly a month or two ago.
a lot of people already elaborated and touched base with a lot of other points to mention.
i think the main thing i want to say is “who are you and why are you in the position to complain about a character in this game”. 75% or so of people posting here in the last year or so have no right to make a judgement as to if a character is broken or not. what is your 3s history and present? are you a person who use to play in a community? what level was this community? do you play only on ggpo? have you played top players? have you played in japan? etc etc. i dont think how long youve been playing is a good judgement as there are people who seem to take a long time to improve if at all.
have you guys complaining about chun ever thought “hmm, how come the top players dont complain about her?”
ok thx. iirc it was in reference to why there’s no chun dvd or something like that. i dunno. also lmao i remember addressing that guy because he always used to come around here to discuss sbo, then leave until the following sbo. he never posted about the actual game or anything. but i don’t think he was a particularly bad person. kinda sad that he ended up embarrassing himself.
imo it’s like the chicken or the egg scenario. no one can determine whether the confines of the game’s design forced the players to respond in a certain way and do/pick certain things, or if the players had misconceptions and it started a snowball effect on other players. the way i see it, there’s no right answer. on one hand i want to believe it’s the latter so that 3S can still be sacred, but if a game needs to have an exact tournament format and the players need some specific mentality that’s only found in japan or w/e otherwise it can’t succeed… yeah, we’re left in an awkward position when trying to promote the game.
i heard nuki during commentating chatting with ebara hugo for a bit. he said that he thinks 3rd strike is as popular as it is because players have the freedom to do what they want. he saids he thinks koshun is cool because he does what he wants and still wins. he thinks every game has things “youre not suppose to do”. 3rd strike still has things youre not suppose to do but a lot less of it.
wonder why americans dont feel this way. i think they like only whats popular, having a set things you have to do and can only do, only want to play a game with money involved, or they dont like having freedom! hehehe
it would explain why marvel had so much popularity and why people who dont know shit about marvel still cheer/watch marvel money matches.
ha well, thats a more black and white assessment than what I intended. Really, in the end, whether 3s has Chun or not, SF4 will always be the biggest factor for 3s’s downfall. And even then, 3s was popular in NA for a long time. So I wouldn’t say 3s needs specific tournament formats, or player attitudes, I just think it contributes to the more vibrant Japanese scene. But fair point nonetheless
3rd strike is a fun game regardless if chun is in it or not. i really dont understand because im sure the people complaining dont even play against chun that much.
The atmosphere between an American tournament and a Japanese tournament are night and day.
In America it’s like so serious. Both players are nervous and usually with a stone cold face. The gameplay shows the nerves with slow, timid boring matches. Any dropped combo or missed opportunities result in a feeling of anger. Once the match is over the loser looks like his dog just died and usually is quiet for the next 30-45 mins.
In Japan everyone is cheering or yelling, in a fun kind of way. Def not offensive cheering or heckling. Gameplay is exciting due to lack of nerves. People know it’s time to go big or go home with only one chance. People like to be sick and show off. It’s flashy. If someone drops a combo or fucks up it’s met with laughter. The loser of most matches doesnt show the dog death face but usually will laugh in embaressment if he just got raped and lights up a cig.
In conclusion Japanese tournaments are so fun. Everyone that loves 3s should get to experience them.
Even when you lose first round and you’re basically out of the tourney in 5 mins, you can just watch the live youtube matches.
Top players do spread their concerns about Chun. Justin Wong himself said “Chun is cheap.”
Then again most 3s players dont like SF4 so its not like the 3s players dropped he game to play the 4 series. So i dont think it was the “biggest” factor so to speak. But i agree wih you that it played a big role
The Marvel,ST and CVS2 communities traveled (and still do) to play each other. they created legendary rivalries in their scene, money matches, trash talk etc. 3s cats didnt do it. The US 3s scene has a sort of finesse to it that doesnt really generate crazy hype. how come weve never had a big EC vs WC exhibition? where’s our high stakes money matches?
Alot of us have been playing 3S for 5-7 years or more and we do no have the notoriety of the other SF gamers. We have no US matches that we can really point to and call “classic” that do not involve a japanese player. Kenin suggesed a WC vs EC exhibition and nothing came of it. The game is godlike but WE didnt take it to the next level. Yipes has some of his quotes in MVC3! rivalries, hype and trash talk. its brings more motivation and keeps things alive.
look at the SF4/marvel players and all their unique personalities and rivalries. We got arturo calling WC legends free, Marn going in on everybody EC or WC. etc…
doesnt matter its that bitch Chun’s fault
i was trying to hold back on posting but lol, w/e
i am an oro player and I feel like when I am at my best, I can beat any US chun player (i have beaten ricky/amir/yi~does that count?lol/paul lee/kai/almost jwo IN TOURNEY)
this is because when i was grinding my hardest back in the ffa ranbat days (when 3s was arguably the most competitive) i worked on this matchup since it is oro’s hardest matchup, tirelessly. I feel as if I have spent my 3s lifetime on this matchup, but instead of frustrating this is fun for me to figure it out, it’s like a puzzle
also because of the time that I was playing at which was very competitive, i actually have a very big 3s ego, and when I go into tournament, i feel as if I can beat anyone. if you don’t feel this way, then why even play? esp when it comes to playing vs chun my mentality is:
-i am smarter than this player
-i know more tricks vs chun, than chun vs oro (when does any US chun play v oro consistently?)
-fuck this guy
3s is a poker type game that with high reading/smarts plus a bit of luck, any character can win which is the beauty of 3s. if I win, i was playing smarter than the other player, if i lose, the other player was truly smarter or I beat myself somehow
when someone says that chun is cheap, this knee jerk comment and shows weakness in mindset and are easily mind broken
in a tournament, you need to start the tourney feeling in your heart of hearts that you can beat everyone in the tourney. this leads to higher confidence, conviction when you make decisions and clarity in thought when you read your opponent. I feel that confidence and reading very important in 3s, moreso than sf4. if you cannot play confidently, you already lost the match before it even started.
ps. when i played mov/rikimaru/nuki/ma jr in japan, that’s the only time i ever felt raped by chun. that’s only because they play tons of oro’s and have really specific tools and tricks to shut him down. was I discouraged? a little, but moreso i was excited to learn new things and think of ways to beat their tools because fortunately, 3s is the type of game where there is a solution for everything if you look hard enough
sorry i typed so much
This is my mentality vs anyone.
America is soft.
Great post. That’s the exact attitude that everybody needs to play this game consistently well and improve.
Some good posts on this page.
I played a dozen matches against Kuroda’s Chun-Li at Shibuya Sportsland in September 2009. I was a bit surprised but yeah, the whole “he won’t play her because she’s cheap” thing is clearly not true.
wtf, I didn’t know that! You will have to give me the rundown next tougeki :wonder:
I would still LOVE for that 2v2 character team exhibition to happen.
I forgot why people said it could never happen. I would sure love for it to happen. I mean just bring the arcade cabs to evo and we can have it there. Idk.
I guess it still could. Just pick an event and start taking names of people committed a few months beforehand. Only problem is I don’t see many socal players going to Evo this year.
Yeah, just found that thread. I said 3v3 at first, but I highly doubt we could get away with that. So probably 2 each.
I can see qualifiers happening. 1 at CTF or in Pennsylvania (3s VS Cab) then 1 at Denjin. Then if someone could bring a 3s Cab to EVO we can have the exhibitions happen there.
^Completely brain storming btw and being off topic so bleh xD
This is cracking me and it happens here too!
U sure that’s not a facade and they’re actually very angry inside? It’s common stuff for japanese people to hide their feelings so well.