I don’t know who these ‘many people’ are. Because everyone here that’s worth anything at all knows the game has it’s negative qualities. They just also know that is 3S, including those less desirable aspects. The whole thing is 3S and the game is from 99. This is the version we have had for like 12 years and there is really no reason it should change. Everyone who already and still does play the game has no problem with it (or why would they be playing it…) so changing it is just a completely unnecessary thing.
It’s like saying ‘i really like this ice cream sandwich even if the ice cream melts too fast and the cookie part gets stuck to my fingers’ and then someone telling you you should eat a banana instead because there’s no mess. Well great but I wanted the ice cream sandwich I always liked. Save the banana for another time.
If capcom wants to make 4th whatever down the line that’s totally cool. I would be totally excited to see what they do but leave 3S alone. It’s an old game and there’s just no need to alienate everyone who is still around enjoying it.
Of all the games I’ve played it has always been those games with some blemishes, but overall excellent design which I hold in the highest regard. Perfectly balanced games are boring.
We aren’t just a bunch of naive morons who don’t know of the game’s faults or imbalances. We just think it’s half-assed to think that those faults end up being the game and players’ limits. We aren’t saying that the game is “an exception to the fighting game rule” either, because the haters have been saying that for YEARS(too many references to name, just search all around SRK). Likewise, the game engine and parries do allow players to overcome matchup statistics more often than most other games. You claim this is due to “randomness”, but if you look at the Danisen rankings you can see that the best players are deservedly ranked the highest, from 10th Dan to the higher ranks.
I won’t argue that there are still a lot of top-tier characters(surprisingly more Ken than Chun or Yun), but consistency from low-tier users in high-level play is still more common than just passing it off as “random”. If it really was random, then they must have been the luckiest sons of bitches for the past decade.
It’s fine if you don’t really “like” or “hate” 3rd Strike. It’s just we aren’t just a bunch of cult followers who think 3S is Jesus in a video game format and top-tier are actually mid. We just love the game enough to look past its flaws, and the whole “defense mechanism” can just be contributed to years of 3S hate from the rest of SRK, as well as newer players just riding that hate from word-of-mouth. As for whether or not we see those flaws as “good”, well that’s a personal thing I guess and not everybody’s opinion.
Jesus, no. If you’re not accounting for player skill (which you shouldn’t be, since I’ve already said about a million times that of course skill is - usually - more important than matchups), you CANNOT “overcome” matchup statistics. Your options are either that low tier players are significantly higher skilled than the top tier players ranked close to them, variance, or the matchup statistics are wrong. A 6-4 is a 6-4. An 8-2 is an 8-2. There is no “overcoming”. Learn the basic concepts of probability, please.
i responded to your post in the other thread. i’m really not seeing the justification in making changes because of some people being “bored” of seeing chuns moveset or it always being chun/yun in evo finals. IMHO those arent good reasons to make changes.
if a change is made from that reasoning then its about pleasing spectators when it should really be about the the game and the people playing it. these spectators and stream monsters wont give two craps about 3s two years from now when we most likely will
I didn’t mean it in the literal sense, but whatever, bad choice of words on my part. My point still stands that “randomness” doesn’t become a factor when it comes to top-level players, even when they use low-tier characters.
EDIT: Alright, I guess that shouldn’t matter since you said “skill shouldn’t be a factor”.
Short-term? Of course it does. Long-term? Yeah, it evens out. There’s nothing about the 3S system that makes it easier to overcome bad matchups though. An 8-2 is an 8-2. If the system made it easier to overcome, it wouldn’t be an 8-2. This is where my main point of contention lies; the 3S mysticism that somehow allows the game to defy basic logic in the eyes of certain sycophants.
1/ I disagree, indeed.
Current Danisen ranking@GV : http://www.game-versus.net/danisen/grade.html
Why so much mid/low tier on higher ranks? This is not even near the tier list but you can read quite the same names. Interesting.
2/ Ok. So you can quantify something highly dependant of the match progress and the opponent habits. Interesting.
3/ Matchups at the lower level are completely different, at least with my own experience, and not based on youtube vids or any tourney result.
So you must be a top player to be that much bothered with that tier list.
Because they are stronger players than the surrounding top tier users.
Everything in fighting games is dependent on these things! Like, do you understand the idea of a tier list AT ALL? You assume equal, master-level player skill and then evaluate the mathematical advantages and disadvantages of each character’s moveset, allowing for human factors like reaction time (of course in practice the tier list isn’t devised through theorising but through playing, but this is the fundamental theory behind it). WHAT about parry is so fundamentally different from any other move in a fighting game? You can evaluate the risk/reward ratio of a parry in a given situation just as much as any other fucking move.
I’m not bothered by the tier list, I’m bothered by you nutjobs who think parry is some kind of magical device that simply can’t be explained.
This is where most 3S players will stop arguing about the point of matchups based on statistics and focus more towards skill and overall knowledge of the game engine and matchups. You’re right that nothing within the game itself will magically alleviate bad matchups, but many players won’t bother with this argument because they will be more focused on how the player will be able to deal with this.
This is probably why you assume that we’re just a bunch of dopes who blindly have faith in this game, but like I said, we’re not stupid(not all of us, anyway). Like you said, skill > matchups, which is WHY a lot of us are so hooked on this game. We’ve just been answering to the wrong argument, I guess.
2-8 matchup in this game is better than a 4-6 matchup in SFIV. Bet it.
In SFIV you dont even want to fight a 4-6 matchup if you can avoid it. The game’s damage just isn’t high enough and you usually get shut down in 4-6 matchup by like really arbitrary shit like Balrog sitting on jabs and jumping backwards. Losing a health lead even slightly in SFIV pretty much can gaurantee you have little to no chance of winning that round in SFIV. In games like Super Turbo and 3S, simply gaining the health lead in an advantageous matchup did not give you an almost complete chance to seal the match because of other factors like damage output and the strength of throws that made more things possible in the hardest matches.
And here I thought that guy was 3s fanboy/troll by some comments I’ve seen of him trashing 4 and saying how they newbies will whine about 3s the ususl bs surprised the hell out of me.
Well I’ll be making the effort of going from 4 to 3s so this is honestly the first match up I have to learn followed by Yun & Ken then the rest of the mid tiers.
Being an Ibuki player Yun and Chun Li were statistically my hardest matches (3-7) on both, but I never really felt any stress fighting them. Chun Li is rather weak until she gains a meter making it very easy to just get in and stun her. Until she gets 1 bar she literally has NO COMBOS. That’s open season for Ibuki to get in and land her more damaging bnbs that require no meter any way. Once Chun has 2 meters you have a lot of problems but you really have no excuse to lose the first round other than getting outplayed. With an offensive character like Ibuki that can stun you in 2 combos if you’re playing a character that literally has no combos until they gain a meter…Ibuki is just going to go in and get that first round for sure. Yun can be a bitch because he gains meter really fast that can end you really fast but he has no health either and his hit box allows him to be set up for damaging mix ups that are harder to do on other characters.
The matches I feared the most were Ken and Makoto even though those were only 4-6’s. Ken mainly because he didn’t need meter to get in and start doing 40 percent damage combos to Ibuki. Makoto basically because although people generally preferred to use SA1 instead of her touch of death SA2 super it was just the fact that controlling space against Makoto all the time was imperative to not dying. Makoto’s risky play style and lack of ability to control space kept the match from being worse than a 4-6 but if she closed the gap with meter you had to make a good guess or get fucked up.
People are going to have a serious wake up call when they go trying to play Chun Li online without any knowledge of her normal spacing or kara throw game and lose the first round in 10 seconds to people jumping in with Ken and Dudley doing combo videos. You land a c.MK on a rushing Ken or Dudley and you have half a meter? You’re getting no damage other than that c.MK. They hit you with anything with meter and put you in the corner, you’re getting raped.
In order to make Chun Li scary you have to have strong knowledge of her normal game and be able to protect yourself from rushdown in the first round. You literally have no combos until you get a meter (a meter that is rather lengthy) and if you let someone close the gap at all before you get that one meter you lose a round. This isn’t SFIV. If your spacing is off against characters like Ken, Makoto, Dudley, Akuma, Ibuki etc…you will lose the first round in 10 seconds.
You dont get no ultras or XF. In order to make Chun Li good you have to be good at SF fundamentals like footsies, whiff punishing, spacing, tick throwing etc. Everyone makes a big deal about c.MK super but you can lose the first round before you get enough meter to do c.MK super. If you’re expecting Chun Li to be the one that blows shit up the most online…dont be surprised when you’re getting beat probably harder by every other character. The other characters have way higher damage output without meter where if you’re spacing is off against them you wont have a health bar very often in this game online.
**You new guys coming in really have no idea at all how brutal this game can get even before Chun Li. Even Oro has shit that would make you rage more than anything Chun Li does.
**
Explain how this makes any sense whatsoever. I know you know what 8-2 means; assuming equal skill, the advantaged character will win, on average, 8 times out of 10. How can that possibly be better than a match where, assuming equal skill, the advantaged character will win, on average, 6 times out of 10?
All I’m hearing here is “3S has higher variance which enables me to stand a better chance of winning in any given, single match, even though, long-term, the match is still 4-6”. That isn’t a “better” matchup, it’s just an illusion.
I used this example in another thread:
Imagine we play coin flip money matches. We play two different games:
If it’s heads, I give you $100. If it’s tails, you give me 105$.
If it’s heads, I give you $5. If it’s tails, you give me $10.
Short term, you stand a better chance of coming out a big winner in game 1 than game 2, because the variance (the deviation of the possible values from the mean average) is higher. But long term your expected value for both games is still $-5.
Game 1 is 3S. Game 2 is SF4. Short term, it’s possible to win big in 3S in ways that make you feel like the system is enabling you to overcome the matchup chart. Whereas in SF4, because of its lower variance style of play, a bad match is much more “solidly” bad. I actually think a high-variance game is better, to an extent, because of this - it feels more fun. But long term, a 4-6 is still a 4-6, no matter what the game.