Respond to my Chun vs. Chun example. Also love the defensiveness, yet again, even after I’ve said that I don’t think 3S is a bad game.
I also like how you’ve acknowledged that parry fishing is low risk/high reward, which would seem to imply that you understand risk/reward, but then argue that you can’t factor that into a matchup rating. You understand that every match up in every fighting game ever is entirely about risk/reward, right?
it’s just amazing to me that you think it’s just a huge coincidence that the apparent best 3s players all tend towards using top tier characters, rather than that there’s a wider pool of top players all around the same skill level, and the top tier players naturally rise to the top of that pool by virtue of their tier advantages. what you’re describing is so massively unlikely it’s ridiculous. i mean, why do you even acknowledge that tiers exist if you don’t believe they actually convey any advantage? just adopt the same insane viewpoint as metric so at least i can respond to both of your delusional asses in one paragraph.
Rational thinking with hypothetical scenarios, you’ve walked on your shoes enough. No character maybe besides sean/tweleve have that much of a one sided matchup, hell even with them in the mix I doubt it. So no, that is not what I’m saying. I really don’t understand why you think the tier sheet means anything, shit is old and honestly is just a guesstimation based on tournament results. Oh and four years old and allot of the lower characters have moved up the list, I know for a fact Urien has moved down and Hugo has gone up to lower mid tier.
“can’t factor that into a matchup rating”
Please, enlighten me, how do you factor in a parry into a tier list?
well do you wanna go off your assumptions or go off my first hand experience?
risk/reward, just like you factor in every single other fucking thing. jesus you are dense.
i don’t trust that you’re good enough to differentiate between the skill of, say, rikimaru using a low tier alt and the best player who mains that character, to be able to say that rikimaru’s is better (which as far as i can tell is the kind of claim you are making).
even if you were right that most of the best players use top tiers, that doesn’t mean that tiers don’t convey an advantage. it could be that using a top tier and being a top player are covalent because they both stem from a desire to be the best by any means possible. a top player using a top tier will still win more than an equally skilled player using a low tier. of course, you won’t acknowledge this, since the “equally skilled” part doesn’t work out if you’re working from the a priori assumption that tiers don’t convey an advantage. thus, a player that wins 80% of matches with hugo is less skilled than a player that wins 90% of matches with chun. backwards-ass logic.
again, why do you even acknowledge that tiers exist?
I’m sleepy, going to bed. I wonder if this guy has played the game at all, wouldn’t be surprised if hes played here and there for a few months, read a tier chart, watched some popular videos and now thinks hes can generalize a game on that alone. I think 3s is the greatest game out there for me, do I think its the deepest fucking chess like mindgame explosion of gushers and fruit rollup? No, it has huge amount of depth, but it’s just a fighting game, a video game. Why this guy is even on these forums is beyond me, I don’t understand the kick out of it.
yes and youre much better than me to make assumptions off of tourney results and match videos. gtfo, youre a waste of time joe the condor.
your opinion is always right, metric and i are wrong.
peace
I don’t know why it’s that hard to understand. Tier exist in 3s, Chun is extremely strong (maybe a bit too strong), there are good and bad matchups, but the game system as a whole gives 3s layers that other fighing games don’t have, so that a match is more in the hand of the player rather than the character’s matchup comparing to other games.
If, like, in sf2 or sf4 the outcome of a match is something like 70% player skill - 30% character matchup, in 3s it’s easily 90% player skill - 10% character matchup. Matchup exist in 3s and some are really loopsided (like Chun-Oro) BUT the game system rewards the better player more than other game systems do.
A Kuroda destroying top players with bottom tiers won’t ever happen in SFIV because the game system doesn’t give enough to the player.
empirical facts are not assumptions. i look at the evidence and make the most reasonable conclusion. you make incredibly unrealistic appeals to personal authority and 3rd strike voodoo magic.
**The matchup rating tells you how much of the match is player skill vs. matchup advantage/disadvantage. That is the whole point. **Once again, saying an 8-2 (or whatever) in 3S is more about player skill than an 8-2 in ST is equivalent to saying in certain situations 2+2=5.
5-5 = 0% matchup, 100% skill.
6-4 = 20% matchup, 80% skill.
7-3 = 40% matchup, 60% skill.
8-2 = 60% matchup, 40% skill
9-1 = 80% matchup, 20% skill.
10-0 = 100% matchup, 0% skill (good ole ST Akuma vs. Zangief).
(Note this is over an infinite number of matches, so randomness is not a factor.)
I mean, come on, this is just basic understanding of math and what matchup ratings mean.
The alternative, rational explanation for the phenomenon you observe (which isn’t unique to 3S at all - see players like Komoda, Pony and Toutanki in ST for example) is either that 3S is better balanced than other games (patently untrue), or that 3S has more variance than other games, meaning bad matchups can appear better in the short term due to randomness. I like the latter explanation, but I’m open to other explanations if they’re based on actual logic rather than voodoo mysticism and a fundamental misunderstanding of basic math.
Fixed .
To be honest no one here takes you seriously because you are all about facts , figures and baseless theory fighting rather than hands on experience and informed knowledge .Dudes like metric and Ryan are actually trying to teach you something about the game and you are just not getting it .
You seem to think tiers are dogmas and that anything in the game will directly and mathematically result from them, which is wrong.
Fighting games are not (only) mathematics applied on sprites, and it’s even more true for 3s due to its parrying particularity which adds a new layer of possibilities and is not quantifiable.
Tiers are just some kind of indicators, done by top jap players, and it only really has sense for them and top players, not casuals or even decent players.
Period.
Using them to (mathematically) determine who’s gonna win just after the char selection screen is dumb.
Over the long term, and assuming the numbers are actually accurate, character matchups will exert exactly the influence the matchup chart says they will. That doesn’t mean the character with the better matchup always wins, it means the character matchup exerts the influence the chart says it does. If you disagree with this, you disagree with the entire concept of matchup charts.
Yes it is. It is absolutely quantifiable. Quantifying it just doesn’t tell the whole story, because it doesn’t account for player skill. This has never been disputed, yet somehow people still keep appealing to player skill in this discussion.
Agreed to some extent. Matchups still exist at the lower level of play, but the advantages/disadvantages can be very different to high level play.
Good job nobody is doing that, then!
Just wondering, how do you guys explain sports betting? You can’t quantify PEOPLE, right? It’s too random! Yet somehow sports betting is a massively profitable industry, built off the fact that, actually, you can quantify these things. I don’t know why you think 3S is so different.
I also don’t understand why you think parry is so different to any other move in a fighting game that it completely blows apart what would otherwise be totally locked-down, quantifiable matchups. You realise every other fighting game isn’t simply about doing set strategies and flowchart responses to whatever you see your opponent do, right? There’s heavy elements of prediction and reading in every fighting game. What, exactly, is so different about parrying? Why is it any less quantifiable than, say, a random dragon punch? It’s just a different risk/reward equation.
I can assure you, that when this is back on Live, you really won’t see that many Chuns… her style is so different to Shotos, with loads of pokes and throws and parry/dash for AA, or burn meter for wake-up… it seems to put a lot of people off. This has been on GGPO for like, what? Two years now? It’s kinda rare to see a good Chun on there, beyond some guy just picking her for a bit of random mashing fun cuz he likes the look of her, lol
The other high tiers (except Mak), plus Akuma will be way more popular! I watched a Urien player on there the other night called CRUISE who literally looked unstoppable :o
What’s even more hilarious is that you think winning is the point of the game. People hung up on tier-lists are pathetic and most likely have small penises. There are characters of different relative strength, this isn’t new. You can either accept it and move on, or be pathetic and dislike the game because you’re trying to win more than you’re trying to play.
What are you actually trying to get good at if not winning more? Doing flashy combos?
I actually agree with you (at least up until the “trying to win more than you’re trying to play” part. How can you even play without trying to win?). More defensiveness, when, once again, I have never said that I dislike the game. I don’t understand why you guys think anyone who accepts the reality of the game must hate it. You are really, pathetically insecure.
Because you clearly don’t love the game. The meaning of love here is that you take the game with all it’s faults and are no longer bothered by them. That isn’t to say you can’t scream about chun-li or yun plenty, it just means you acknowledge the state of things and still want more. The game isn’t about tier-lists and defeating people, it’s about playing well and striving to be just that much better at the game.
You’re working to be good at the game, not winning. Winning is the end of a game after you’ve outplayed someone. If all you wanted to do was win you would fight awful players day in day out.
If you don’t understand playing without trying to win you’re not thinking very hard. Are you done trolling?
I half expect to go to GameFAQs or /v/ and see a thread by Good Game Player similar to something like “i troll’d srk 3s lolololololol” trollface on sean
That’s fine, but many people here don’t even want to accept that the game has faults. Many people here don’t want to accept that parrying isn’t, quite literally, magic.
Sorry that people who like but don’t love the game are going to be playing it. Deal with it I guess.