Honda thread

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
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1 Which one of his two cross-up - down mk and hk - is deep enough to force the challenger to a reverse blocking?
–Both can do this, but they’re used differently. Forward splash is more ambiguous, which can be good against characters that need a toward-back directional input for their reversal, and it has a wider hitbox, so it’s what you use for crossups on characters with very thin blocking hitboxes (ie Boxer). It’s also usually better as a safe jump. Jumping roundhouse, on the other hand, is good for extra blockstun and puts you a little farther away from your opponent, so it’s good for starting a grab setup.

2 1000 hands with hp: How should I input these hps in order to get the move?
–Press fierce really fast 4-5 times in a row. It seems to come out more easily if you’re canceling it from something (like crouching short or O. Honda’s crouching fierce), but you still need to press the button pretty fast.

3 Oicho loop: is it possible to begin it with a crouch mp instead of a cr. lp?
–Only on Zangief, but you should never try it on him because he’ll just get a free spd on you. I always use one of standing jab, crouching jab, or crouching short.

4 In case of challenger’s cross-up the oicho has to be restored again starting with the forward or is it possible to restore it with down, down back from the crouch position?
–I suppose you could do it that way, but I usually just wait for the opponent to land to do the motion.

5 I need some advices about what to do after an oicho. Another oicho is impossible since Honda would be too far from the opponent. A good move is his buttslam but it’s not a good option against shotos who can intercept it with a reversal shoryu. The crouched hk and forward hk are slow and can be punished by a reversal. What is a good mix-up to maintain the pressure?
–Mix up between jab hands, strong/fierce hands, forward/roundhouse buttslam (which land on different sides of the opponent), walk up grab, and blocking.

6 I’ve read in the Wiki that an eventual move doesn’t affect the oicho storage. While playing I’ve got the feeling that I needed to restore oicho every time I missed the throw and obtained a simple crouched punch. How is it possible that the game keeps the oicho stored if even the throw is missed and a punch button activated?
–I don’t really understand the question, sorry.

7 I’ve tried to use some Blanka’s tactics with Honda such as the ground cross-up with the headbutt and a short headbutt followed by a grab. But I realized the recovering time after the headbutt is too long and the opponent can easily punish Honda. Is this correct or the ground crossup has any use I can’t see?
–No use, he’s not Blanka and the headbutt doesn’t work like the ball.

8** Has Honda’s cr. hk any special property?**
–It sweeps on both sides. If you and your opponent are coming down from the air at about the same time but you don’t know who’s gonna be on which side, crouching roundhouse will sweep him either way (assuming he doesn’t reversal throw you out of it). It also makes for corner shenanigans. Try fierce grab on Ryu in the corner, walk under your opponent toward the corner, and press crouching roundhouse, and it’ll sweep him from behind you (and look kinda weird). This doesn’t work on every character, and if I remember correctly it doesn’t work on Claw and Chun. Maybe Fei too? Don’t recall.

9 I’ve got serious problems to close basic combos such as Splash jump-in/st. lp/headbutt and Splash jump-in/
cr. lk/headbutt. I can combo the first two moves but I can’t finish the sequence with the headbutt.
–Are you charging back soon enough after jumping? You should jump and immediately start holding back on the stick to get enough charge time for the headbutt.

The headbutt has to be necessarily made with the lp to close the combo?
–It can’t be comboed after far standing jab, if that’s what you’re asking. Well, it can for O. Honda, but not for N. Honda.

And the cr. mk can be cancelled into the headbutt?
–Nope, crouching forward cannot be canceled.

10. a) Splash jump-in/cr. lk/headbutt; b) Jump-in/st. lp/headbutt
–When jumping in for combos, jump with jumping fierce or jumping roundhouse. They do more damage than splash and since they also do more hitstun it’s easier to combo after them. Of the two, jumping fierce is usually better, but on some characters (like Boxer) I like jumping roundhouse’s hitbox better. Plus, the splash usually whiffs on Boxer.

c) Deep Jump-in cross-up/ st. hk (3 hits)
–A better crossup combo is crossup forward splash/roundhouse, standing jab, crouching short xx fierce headbutt. Charging for the headbutt is pretty easy, I just hold in the direction I’m jumping the entire time (so like, toward the opponent as you jump and away from him once you’re on the other side, it’s the same direction and you should hold it that way the whole time).

d) Jump-in/st lp/st mp/ ? (1000 hands with mp or headbutt?)
–Standing strong isn’t cancelable. It can link into a couple things, but nothing good.

e) Jump-in/cr lk/buttslam: does it combo?
–No, you can’t combo into buttslam.

f) Other suggestions?
–After I dizzy the opponent I usually do jumping fierce, crouching short, fierce headbutt because it’s safer and faster to get out than the crossup into headbutt combo. If you have super, you can do the super motion, hold toward, press up-toward to jump toward the opponent, hit him with jumping fierce, then crouching short, and immediately after that any punch button. Voila, combo into super! Make sure you hope that all the hits of the super actually hit!

222

First of all I’d like to thank you for your exhaustive answer.

Yes, I realized the only way I could perform it until now is when I start pressing the button while I’m blocking a long move (i.e. Dictator’s flame).

Maybe is necessary to have a stick with better buttons to obtain this move from a normal state.

Isn’t this the same concept that allows to maintain the charge of a special or a super if the opponent switches side?

If the opponent is too far the ochio move will not lead to a throw but to a simple cr. punch: after that the ochio has to be restored in order to be ready to achieve another throw attempt?

I don’t really understand: if the opponent sees that Honda is switching side while walking after a grab, he will also do a reverse block.

Therefore where is the advantage of the cr. hk?

Maybe these charas are “light” and they touch the ground before Honda has completed the walking to change the side.

Maybe I’m just too slow, I don’t know. I’m starting trying to perform a basic cr. lk plus headbutt at minimum distance but I continue failing: is this move a combo or, to connect, I need the deepness of the splash jump-in?

No. In other terms my question was: in order to complete the combo is it preferable to use a lp headbutt - the shorter one - and therefore taking advantage of his priority or is it possible to close the combo with any type of headbutts?

It would be very useful to read a list of the most important cancellable moves of Honda.

Because of Boxer’s small hitbox?

Better but too complicated for the moment.

Do you mean that st mp can link with st. hp? Is this a combo?

Is there any move that do connect with the buttslam?

Wait a second. Do you mean is it possible to connect directly a jump-in with an headbutt without using any other move in the middle?

By the way why don’t you cancel the cr. short into a lp headbutt instead of a hp one? The headbutt made with lp should have more priority.

I didn’t think about it and it’s very useful. Anyway I’m technically too far to combo super moves for the moment: the ability of combining charging supers is, in my opinion, the most complicated technical stuff to perform in St.

The less I use Honda’s super the better I feel. The only use of it that I found is too pass through fireballs - especially Chun’s ones - hoping I dont miss the short window of invulnerability (Ryu’s fireballs can block the super at his beginning).

And without mention the fact that good players can always hit me with a reversal in the big gap between the first and the second headbutt.

Other questions:

1 Would you complete my list of basic combos? (no supers involved or Kusumondo only combos)

2 The jump-in with lk can be considered as an instant overhead?

3 Is there any difference, in terms of range and damages, while making an ochio throw using the different punch buttons?

4 Aside his forward hk, what do you use as attack while you are walking towards your opponent?

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No, you can do the ochio motion, mash punch all day, and if the opponent gets close he’ll be ochio’ed.

It’s actually pretty handy when, say, Chun-Li is doing her MP -> walk -> MP -> walk -> MP -> walk -> throw annoyances - you can just store the ochio, hold down-back to block the hits and repeatedly hit MP while in block stun, and if you’re lucky that’ll either get the ochio at some point or interrupt her throw attempt with a crouch MP.

224

I’m pretty sure only the Fierce (HP) Headbutt will work in combos. Your spending too much time worrying about obscure combos, that’s not Honda’s game. The basic Jump in Fierce, cr.Short, Fierce Headbutt does good damage and more importantly it knocks down (good when playing charcacters that try to keep Honda out). The rest of the time concentrate on setting up throws.

All the Ochios have same range (as far as I can tell), Fierce does more damage and does a lot more stun damage.

When walking towards an opponent I stick out st. jabs (stops lots of moves). Especially against another Honda. Cr. strong has good priority and stops lots of pokes (good against Guile’s cr. forward kick) but it is slower.

225

Okay, my question for today is for fighting Dictator.

I can deal with most of his tricks, except this one: I’m in the left corner, Dic does a psycho crusher against me, then he actually recovers behind me and immediately throws me.

I’ve tried to counter-ochio him a ton of times (when in the left corner, I do left~down~right+P) but it never seems to work. I guess the one-frame turnaround prevents me from properly ochioing since I start the motion facing right then end it facing left.

For now I just avoid getting cornered at all to avoid this trap, but maybe there’s a better way to counter this?

226

Well you can just regular throw, no fancy motions needed for that. Any throw into the corner to ochio loop! It’s not a good idea for Dic to put himself in the corner against Honda like that, just too risky. You can also do buttslam if you’re not confident in reversal throwing.

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I find that a MK sumo splash does wonders in that situation. Just make sure to cancel out of your blockstun recovery (which can be tricky depending on whether a MP or HP PC was used).

Or if you feel daunting, a MP HHS should connect for 2-3 hits (usually because the Bison player is going for a throw instead of blocking). This is a bit difficult because depending on when you start rapid tapping MP, you could do the HHS in the wrong direction.

228

Not really worth trying hands there, it has too many throwable startup frames.

229

Yeah, that’s the difficulty - I’m in blockstun the whole time up to Dic’s throw, and it seems any move I try to do gets thrown, let alone the slaps or jumping. I thought I even tried reversal buttslamming but I might be wrong.

I’ll try to counter-throw and see how it works.

230

Reversal buttslam always beats all throws, so both that and reversal normal throw should do the trick. Both equal Dictator getting ochio looped.

231

Yes i prefer Mp Butt smash vs Dict. this is safe. True H.Hands can be counter thrown if he is very close. Like Davis Said to many start up frames. You could always do J Head butt to stop the psycho in the first place.

232

Here is a question I haven’t seen answered:

Is there any benefit to using MP hands over FP hands?

As far as I can tell, the difference between the two is that FP hands does a lot more damage, but is a lot harder to execute. That said, would using FP hands be good to use, when you have a lot of time to concentrate and focus on simply mashing HP?

For example, a common follow up to an oicho is MP hands. but during an oicho, you have a ton of time to concentrate and focus on mashing HP, usually I can get FP hands to come out.

233

IIRC, all that HHS requires to be executed is that four punch buttons were previously hit in quick succession; they can be any punch buttons. The last one just has to be HP for the HP hands to come out.

234

you don’t recall very correctly, cause that way of doing mash moves didn’t exist until later (cvs2 is where people are actually familiar with it, but I’m not sure how it’s done in A2/A3/mvc2 etc)

in ST you have to mash the one button and the rapidity you need to mash with must be fastest with the harder strength. In fact it’s impossible to do s.FP kara-ed into FP HHS. I can’t do it anyway. I can’t do FP mash moves reliably at all.

doing cvs2 style doesn’t work (though will in HD).

so back to the question, I’m pretty sure fierce HHS travels way further.

I’d be careful with the hands though. it’s possible to actually cross people up with the hands. I don’t play honda, but sometimes I’ll have a honda try and meaty hands on me, then do the mp/hp hands too early and cross over my body with the forward momentum while I wake up with the back turned to me, hands going away from my body.

235

Well it did exist before ST, you could do that in WW, CE, and HF. But your right, it doesn’t work in ST.

236

Ah, I see. ._.

237

Unless you don’t want to move forward that far, I think the FP Hands are superior in every way. You just won’t be able to do them every time.

Besides doing more damage the hits are closer together too. I’m pretty sure that they hit on every other frame where as the MP ones hit every third frame and the LP are every fourth, or something like that. I’m pretty sure that I’ve seen Zangeif 360 people out of them after getting hit so the less time inbetween hits the better.

Speaking of FP Hands, let’s talk about openings. What kind of stuff do you like to do at the beginning of a round?

238

I hold down-back visibly at the beginning of the round. Then, I walk forward. :slight_smile:

Unless I know for a fact that they’re going to jump in.

239

The HHS attack frames are back to back so there is no gap between them (for all strengths), the only way gief could SPD honda AFTER being initially hit by the HHS is by performing the SPD outside of honda’s HHS range (specific to the attack at the given time, so it might have appeared to look like gief reversed it)

The start-up frames for the HHS (Hundred Hand Slap) goes as follows: 5, 8, 11 so for those who don’t fully understand the HHS, if you were able to mash the desired strength button at light speed it would still take 11 frames for the HHS to come out (i.e. you really need to be able to mash fast enough to exit mash-throws after 1 hit, it’s really not that difficult with a little practice).

There are 3 different sets of attack boxes and hit boxes for the HHS. The attack sequence for the HHS is mid, high, low (repeat). The HHS will have 6 attacks for jab and strong, but fierce has a set of 11 (note: the jab and fierce have the exact same amount of total frames from start to finish; with strong having slightly less). I would only recommend using fierce as each attack only lasts 1 frame <besides the initial mid attack having 2> [ST players should already account for the start up].

Damage is as follows: (1st hit)+(2nd hit)+(3rd hit)
Jab 15+15+14
Strong 16+16+15
Fierce 17+17+16

As for canceling the s.Fierce into Fierce HHS; I’m sure it’s impossible since you cannot special or super cancel s.Fierce (unless I’ve totally misunderstood the YBH).

Hope this helps :wgrin:

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ST Honda page up at streetfighterdojo.com

I finally got ST E. Honda section up at streetfighterdojo.com.

The link is:
http://streetfighterdojo.com/superturbo/honda/hondamatches.html