Thanks for the matchup data Emanuelb. Much appreciated.
Very good Emanuelb! Continue contributing more and more to this topic! We can discuss more about footsies of e. honda!
Very nice thread =)
Any tips on the honda-yun match up? Having trouble playing this dude at my locals. I know far and crouching mp is a pretty good normal against the dive kicks.
I find standing jab to work well against yun in neutral.
Emmm
Chun can keep out Honda pretty well. She can effectively aa Honda. NJ hk jhp and stmk. Clmp… Etc
Ultra1 punishes headbutts ex included. And his far hk is ultra punishable.
Super is guaranteed in round2. Can punish alot of things even far hp. If chun plays lame enough you can build super every round. Having super shifts the mu heavily in her favor.
Chun dmg is not bad actually. Her crhp loops work on Honda. And u have the option to end it with sweep. Clhk combos work vs Honda as well.
Clhk hk legs fadc clhk lk legs stlp into any ender… Far mp xx ex legs… Sweep… Or Ultra1. This combo burns 2 bars and builds 1 bar in return if u end it with sweep. Or far hp.
I feel it’s a really really bad mu for Honda.
It’s deff. bad, though I’m not sure how much. Her antiairs are space dependent, she has no catch’em all, and she has 900 health.
It’s difficult to talk about this match since Chun is so rare…
It has been quite some time since I have visited the forums. I have done a lot of playing and I now actually think the worst matchups are seth and akuma because they can vortex and zone. This enables them to put on safe pressure, get a life lead, and easily keep you out til timeout.
Ryu can be as bad, to a lesser extent, however I have found an incredible tactic to beat shotos. It really just involves blocking the entire match to learn the opponents fireball patterns and walking them into the corner. You always stay just outside the range where they can jump in on you and you can guess njs until they are sick of chipping you with fireballs. Eventually after spamming fireballs you can find opportunities to jump or fadc 2 fireballs in a row, etc. It has so much to do with downloading your opponents tendencies. It frustrates your opponent. It forces them to play footsies with honda which I believe honda wins. When you make them walk forward they open themselves up to headbutts which need to be used sparingly because a jump back hk beats them.
I still struggle with the following matchups simply due to lack of exp so to me they are 3-7 although I understand others have figured them out:
Elf, rufus, makoto, yun
I believe they are truly 5-5 with practice
Dhalsim is actually very easy to beat you just need a lot of patience. Same goes for guile and chun and even sagat. I am not struggling in these matches in the slightest any more after blocking for 60 seconds straight almost no opponent can withstand applying close up pressure and the amount of information gained is massive for set play while your opponent has gained virtually none. No other characters can take chip damage like honda.
Am I saying he is top tier? Not in the slightest, I still think he has to work harder than the rest of the cast for wins, without a doubt. But there is a way to play honda and win against ANYONE.no random shit, no gimmicks. The safe jumps and OSes I need to incorporate into my game to improve my offense and I need to learn to deal with divekick pressure better without burning my meter in order to get to the next level. I also have recently improved my focus ability which imo is hondas most under used tool despite being the worst in the game it does have uses.Red focus may help some of these scenarios. I also get nervous in tournament which is a personal hurdle I need to overcome.
What are the problems you encounter with Makoto Rawbertson? I’ve played some decent ones, and while she does a lot of damage, she doesn’t have a good go to move to get close. cr. lp or st. lp xx hands shuts her down pretty good. You have to be careful and not eat axe kicks, if you fuck up your AA, you will get comboed. The only problem i have agains Makoto is that stupid axe kick, so i hit training mode and try to AA it with lp. headbutt and st. hp. Once you can keep her out and pressure her with hands, there isn’t much she can do. Just be careful of ex command grab, it’s really better than oicho.
i am too scared of the command grab i realized. i wasnt reversalling. i got some matches in against MMS native, he has an A Rank makoto. i am just way too scared of command grabs in general i need to be ready to reversal that shit and 1 technique i came up with is if i fuck up my reversal then i will hold up on the stick to dodge any impending grabs, most cases getting hit by the last 2 ticks of a tight block string is not really a big deal.
1 more thing i did was i walk in and out between the range she can dash in and stick out a jab and try and confirm a hhs if it whiffs and she gets airborne i can ex hb… still i find it hard to approach her i find it harder to walk her into the corner than anyone else i really get nervous goin in that range where she can dash up… random njs can be a really bad idea she has loads of time to dash into you thats another thing i had to stop doing against certain matchups that has helped me a lot.
Anyone has some good additional Vega tips for me?
So far what I’ve been doing;
Pokes: my main pokes are s.HP, s.MP, s.LP and c.LP. I only use it to whiff punish it and stuff his slide mainly, I don’t engage too much in his superior neutral game. I don’t use s.HK that often because it’s punishable by his c.MP
Going on the offense:
Walking forward and blocking is the main thing I do. I also use nj.LP or nj.HP for air to air or use it when he’s on the ground (while drifting backwards) to bait his slide or RCF if he has no down charge. When walking forward enough, I try to get a read on him so I can sense when he’ll throw out a normal so I can jump in on him and apply pressure. When I decide to jump in, j.MP, j.HK and j.MK are my main choices.
What Vega seems to be able to punish afaik:
- C.mp (with claw on) can punish all headbutts on block regardless of position. Ultra 2, EXFBA, far MK and walk+st.Hp(with claw) can punish MP and HP headbutt.
C.HK (slide) can punish HP hb. So yea… I don’t use headbutt that often. - some bnb hhs combos don’t fully hit on him if he’s crouching, as a result he can punish HHS with c.MP or st.HK apparently… (for example xup, c.LP, H.Hands,…)
- early AA headbutts and Ultra 1 can be air thrown.
- doing Oicho after a headbutt (to build meter) can be punished by his ultra.
Punishing Vega:
- He’s never positive on block after his RCF so you can turn the tides if he ever does it.
- There’s a huge gap between c.MP cancelled in a special. The gap is so high you can even jump out of c.MP xx RCF.
- EX flying superman attack is sometimes punishable on block by walk up st.HK
vs Izuna drop:
- Focus attacking his flying barcelona attack makes it extremely hard for him to get izuna drop out.
- nj.HP, nj.MK and j.MK seem reliable to throw out there once in a while.
- absorbing the 1st hit of his ex izuna drop claw attack and backdashing the 2nd hit, allows you to punish him after it.
- I use Ultra 2 for the above reasons in this mu
Option Selects:
Post Oicho: forward dash, cl.HP (xx buffer fierce Hands) - cl.fierce knocks vega out of his backdash, HHS will come out if vega does one of his flips, OS only loses vs Ultra 2
If hands hit, I can finish it with st.HK
Meter Building:
I like to mix HHS up with oicho from fullscreen to build meter.
LP. HHS can beat or trade with Vega’s RCF. LP.HHS can also trade with ex izuna drop and make Vega waste meter, though it can also beat you if you’re in recovery.
Combos (with help from the combo section and EmanuelB’s post)
Crouching Vega:
-
Jump, s.LP/c.LP/c.LK, M.Hands, c.MK xx HP.hb - 322
-
Jump, st.LP, c.LP, H.HHS, c.LP, EX.hb - 276
-
xup, c.LK, H.Hands, c.LP/c.MK xx EX.hb - 265/297
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s.LP/c.LP/c.LK, H.Hands, c.LP/c.MK xx EX.hb - 275/307
-
c.LK, c.LP, H.Hands, c.LP/c.MK xx EX.HB - 266/294
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cr. MK xx EX Hands - cr. LP xx H. Hands - cr. MK xx EX Hb: 443 dmg
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xup, c.LP, H.Hands (doesnt fully hit)
-
s.LP/c.LP, M.Hands (doesnt fully hit)
Standing Vega:
- s.LP/c.LP/c.LK, M.Hands, c.MK xx EX.hb - 322
- LP xx H. Hands - EX Hands - cr. LP xx H. Hands: 330 dmg
- cl HP - cr. LP xx EX Hands - cr. LP xx H. Hands - HK: 413 damage
Things I could work on:
- I have troubles finding a reliable frame trap to pin him down.
Using st.MP or cl.HP as frametraps and doing a counterhit combo into cr.lp xx hands doesn’t fully combo and seems punishable on hit - I can’t seem to find a solid OS for Vega backdashing out of my jumpins
if a vega is doing rolling claws from fullscreen HB Headbutt
ex flying claw can blow you up if it hits deep so be careful fadcing in, i normally just backdash away. good players dont do sky highs anyway so its not that useful is u2. although i still use it just in case and u1 is bad anyway
so hard to poke at vega but cr lp does beat a lot of shit at the right ranges. but he will shit on it if he sees you are just whiffnig them. so i actually just try to sit there get closer and closer to him and get him to use his dashing kick into kara throw gimmick and punish with lk butt to build meter. that seems to be his go-to get in against most of the guys i play… not everyone does it i sometimes see just the overhead attempts too i am basically just looking for those because most vegas think thery can get away with it free. then i have a lifelead and its hard for him to approach.
he is pretty easy to stay on top of i believe crossup beats non ex backflips same with lk butt and ex headbutt beats even ex backflip so its really good if you can get him to think you are doing somethign unsafe.
dont bother AAing with lp headbutt it wont start fast enough, st fierce is better if you dont have ex headbutt. as far as OSing back dashing i normally just jab then headbutt but i dont really OS (something i need to work on for sure) I just try to react to it.
Ok, getting beat by luckyd and losing to arturo sabin sanchez and before that losing to playingtowin I can say dhalsim feels like hondas worst matchup. It is a seven to three if there ever was one. I would really like some concrete tactics in this fight other than what o have developed myself.
If the random headbutt now and then doesnt work, youre fucked. The match is awful
i know online vs. offline is different believe me i hate that matchup with a passion but i beat arto 2-0 online. i can say i have played harder sims than him before. he takes a lot of risks. thats where you get your chances.
some things to keep in mind:
when he teleports behind you, you can often autocorrect lk buttslam. actually i think you can always hit him with it its just a matter of whether you have charge or not. i cant see there being any escape because he is in recovery at one poitn even if he teleports a 2nd time. someone told me as soon as you see the teleport just stick out a jab- even if it whiffs its not a big deal and if he does actually land behind you you will get him every time.
instead of trying to jump fireballs, consider jumping stretchy normals. FP actually has way more recovery than a fireball from what i can tell visually. i tend to go for u1 through that over fireball. I see a lot of guys do stuff like “fireball, FP, FP” or something along those lines. you can react to a FP coming out, just jump it. I like to EX headbutt them a lot too. you will see on my vids i stuff those arms before they are even remotely close to me because I read the tendency.
Many people say “go crazy” in this match. i dont do that. i jsut downback and frustrate them and encourage THEM to take the risk. he has to throw a LP fireball to make it go full screen so let him do that. gives you more opportunity to move around. i will normally try and walk forward into it so i can try and gain some space by the time he has recovered.
focusing seems like a lost cause to go through a fireball. can never get it to work.
apaprently if someone yoga snipers (jump hp) you on the way up, you can ultra them. i believe it only works on blocked snipers though as I have exhaustively tried to do this on hit and have yet to see it work. but perhaps it can and i havent reacted in time.
once you are in then go absolutely mental. the better your mixup game is the sooner you will win. I need to work on OSing teleports vs him and bison. could seriosuly do so much with that tech.
if you see a dhalsim likes to jump back punish with RH buttslams and EX buttslams on reaction. ex will beat the snipers too.
So I’ve been watching more japanese Honda tech lately by digging into niconico videos, and discovered Hakan is unable to punish HK buttslam with his oil rocket, UNLESS he blocks it as a cross up.
Even in the corner he can’t punish it with Oil rocket if blocked normally.
Buttslamming on its own isn’t exactly recommended against Hakan since he has godlike FA options, but if you can force him to block (reversal f.ex.) and command throw.
Then it can serve as useful information and a comeback win on your part.
I wonder if this is also the case against other characters.
Yeah I remember that match, from what I remember because of the delay I can’t antiair you properly which leads to you beating me. Any netplay delay results in me getting jump stronged in the face and my spacing getting messed up. I can’t even punish EX headbutt online properly without getting hit in the face with double EX headbutt on block. Good games either way but I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t go down like that if I could actually antiair properly. Half of the downbacking in that matchup on Honda’s side occurs when you get a jumpin when you shouldn’t be. When the match is played properly you shouldn’t even be getting a lead in the first place to be able to downback unless I mess up.
I gotta get some games with you man. I am so tired of losing this mu everytime i go to a major. How the hell are there only 3 dsims worth a damn on east coast and I always have to play one.
it seemed like you were teleporting a lot, most guys i play tend to just stay planted cause those setups are one of the places honda can get damage from. i was pretty lucky getting in, after a few more games you would have figured me out. if you even let honda in once the match can be pretty much over but most of the time you dont get that opportunity. ill haveto play you again sometime.
Guys, I need some advice. A Ryu I play a lot has found a certain magic range to stand at such that he can jump in with a late tatsu that just barely crosses up, and cleanly beats an anti-air EX Headbutt. From the same range, a jump-in HK will almost always beat Honda’s s.HP and net a full combo for Ryu. A psychic Honda nj.HP can obviously stuff such a jump, but I get too happy with neutral jumps from that range it’s simple for Ryu to walk forward a few steps and s.HK to punish the jump. What do I do?? I feel really stupid just blocking jump-ins…