Interesting ratings, Mike. I worked with a tier list for v.2012, and I talked with many top players. I will post here the thoughts on honda match ups.
Abel: 5-5. Maybe 5.5-4.5
Juicebox, Mike Chow and Cuongster think the match is 5-5. 801 Strider - 5.5-4.5. Twg Arthur and Mr.Snk - 6-4
This is what Mike Chow said on the match (from an Abel point of view):
“abel vs honda: i actually hate this matchup, but thats a personal thing, mainly since honda players can never be conditioned. The big thing is mainly step kick (as always). Honda can bully abel pretty well with jab xx hands pressure, but he has to walk forward to do this, which leaves him open to getting kicked in the chest. If your spacing is good, you can keep the match at a range where honda can’t do anything dangerous without walking forward, which means he’s left without charge and has to use stand rh to keep you from spacing him. Once he’s forced to use st. rh, he’s leaving himself open for a focus crumple or an FA dash forward punish. If he scouts this out, he can punish you with jab xx hands, but the damage output for abel using the correct option here beats honda’s, not to mention the potential damage off the knockdown he gets. Honda can still jump pretty well, but the nerf to jump strong makes it much easier for abel to deal with; you can almost always trade normals with him as long as you’re spaced right (cr. fwd or cr. fierce, depending on the situation, same as always), or you can burn a bar and guarantee a knockdown with ex falling sky. It’s true that abel has to take risks to be offensive in this matchup, but I feel like that’s the wrong way to play it; if you’re patient and force honda to play the ground game against you, as long as you aren’t being consistently outplayed or outguessed, the damage output is in your favor, especially when you consider the knockdown setup you get. I always play this matchup with 99 seconds in mind.”
I personally think the match might be slightly in Honda’s favour, since Honda has some sweet character specific combos on Abel that ups Honda’s dmg output quite a lot. Plus, Honda is one of the few characters Abel’s step kick combo whiffs when crouching.
Adon: 6-4 Honda
The general consensus is Honda beats Adon. Cuongster says 6-4, twg Arthur - 7-3. Adon players usually considers Honda one of their worst.
Adon has trouble with headbutts (he can only punish with U1 and super - and Adon players usually preffer U2) and Honda’s antiairs gives him trouble aproaching Sumo. Adon also has below average health. I don’t think this match is a blowup by any means, but I think Honda has the edge here.
Akuma: 4-6
Akuma beats Honda for sure, but I don’t think it’s that bad. Akuma can vortex Honda pretty badly, but fortunatelly Honda hits like a truck in this match, so akuma needs to be carefull.
Balrog: 5-5
everybody agrees the match is even.
Blanka: 6.5-3.5
I talked with a good blanka player, and he said Honda is really bad for Blanka. Yeah, Blanka’s shenanigans can be quite annoying, but at the end of the day, Honda’s dmg output simply trounce Blanka (again, honda has some sweet character specific combos on blanka).
This is what a good blanka player said: “Honda players don’t understand that cr.jab literally beats all of Blanka’s normals. If you happen to get lucky and stuff the startup of a jab or trade you get a whopping 60-150 damage. If Honda doesn’t mess up he got low jab xx hands, roundhouse, the life lead, and now you have to work to fight him again. You can’t chip him, you can’t jump, and you can’t run strong mixups on him because of the risk of Ex Headbutt. You’re forced to break his charge and focus on safejumps, then you have to do a string, worrry about ex headbutt, and try to bait it even though you can’t punish it, it resets the spacing, and now honda is back on downback not doing anything. Oh did I mention Honda has character specific combos on Blanka that do a lot of damage? fun fun. Blanka can db honda pretty solidly, but honda can chip away with hands building meter and getting the lifelead down.”
C. Viper: 5.5-4.5
A very difficult match to rate. At one point Gridman (top 8 at several majors) said the match is 7-3 honda. Cuongster - 5-5, Mr.snk - 5.5-4.5
In theory, Honda beats Viper, but in practice Viper’s dmg output and her comeback potential can change a round in a second.
This is what a good viper player (Gridman) said: “Viper has to play lame the entire match and cannot approach honda. she might get one or MAYBE two mixups off a knockdown before honda ex headbutts. and honda always has meter in this match because of jab hands pressure because viper doesnt have buttons to stop hondas cr.jab.
sticking out low forward/strong and buffering mp tk hoping honda walked into it instead of walking and pressing jab [buffer hands] is not a solid strategy. viper runs away in this match. the entire time. feint a seismo or tk or two, throw one or the other out and hope honda didnt neutral jump FP or jump forward. you know how viper can sort of trip guard from certain ranges with low forward buffer mp tk? honda ignores that every time with either neutral jump fp or jump strong/fp/splash/rh. hondas jumpins all trade with FP tk in his favor unless viper has ultra. and when she does, jump strong from a distance makes trade fp tk dash ultra difficult because you need to take an extra step. if viper gets a knockdown she can maybe create two mixups at max before she has to run away and run the clock down and hope honda gets desperate. if honda gets the lead, which isnt hard since he hits like a truck, has more health than viper, and ex HB which stops all momentum+burnkicks+TK’s+seismos+feints+baits [read: it forces you to block, remember this something you clowns like to say viper players dont do :rolleyes: ], he can sit back, and force viper to make mistakes.”
Cammy: 5-5
Another controversial match. Mr.Snk and twg Arthur think the match is 6-4 honda, while Cuongster, Alioune and Dafeetlee - 4-6 cammy’s favour.
I believe the match is 5-5. As Mike Ross stated once, as long honda is standing, he wins. Cammy has trouble punishing headbutts outside ultra, Honda has strong antiairs and his st hk is better than any poke cammy has.
This is what Dafeetlee said about this match: “s.rh beats pretty much every button Honda has in midrange + tags him if he neutral jumps.
U1 is a huge detriment to stop Honda from just doing MP/HP headbutts
Cammy can just invalidate reversal ex headbutts anyway (properly timed cannon strikes that either make it whiff or stuff it entirely).
pressuring him intelligently (safe jumps/safe cannon strikes)”
Chun Li: 4-6
The consensus is that chun beats Honda 4-6.
Not much to say here - chun beats Honda because of her zoning game, but I don’t think the match is that bad. Her antiairs are situational (she needs to pick the right one to counter you), she has bad dmg output and 900 health - which means she bleeds a lot.
Cody: 5-5
Again, quite controversial. Some think Honda beats cody, others think Cody beats honda.
I will list here 2 oppinions: "Cody vs honda is 6-4 cody.
He gets an auto safe jump off criminal upper, can os all of hondas options, s.hk, cr.mk and b.mp completely counter his air approaches from any range, with any normal. Plus he can punish headbutts on block, which not a lot of members can.
Between rocks, better normals and great anti air vs honda, it’s really easy to keep him out. Upclose, the fact that his normals are slow and can’t be chained really hurt against cody’s frame trap game.
the general consensus is that it’s cody favored. I don’t know how a honda player can think otherwise, unless it’s the obvious assumpion of “cody immediately loses the game if he gets knocked down”.
Honda’s strength comes from being a tank and sitting there while you hang yourself, so imo it should be obvious he’s at a disadvantage when forced to play a different game. He’s forced to do a mike ross style with walk up s.jab xx hands and nothing else, other tools are neutralized.
Cody’s zoning is very effective vs honda, he has good buttons to keep him out and rocks. People don’t realize how good they actually are, but it’s the fastest recovering fireball in the game and it puts you at ridiculous frame advantage on block.
Once he decides to lose charge and move in, honda is really easy to aa. Besides b.mp, cr.mk and s.hk work like charms (also on that note, hk ruffian and s.hk are very good against that neutral jump crap that hondas like to do). Cody is one of the best characters to handle headbutts and s.hk, both are punishable on block.
Honda has a 5 frame cr.lk and a non-chainable 4 frame lp. It means he’s alway at a huge risk while crouch teching or even trying to mash through frame traps. Also while cody is on his back he has ex criminal upper, which is throw invul (beats oicho) and has enough invincibility to avoid a light meaty, plus while it’s punishable most people don’t and honda probably gets a s.hk or a headbutt at most.The only thing i see going for honda is jab hands pressure, but he can do that against anyone.
TLDR:
- cody has way better neutral game
- both characters are screwed without meter"
“Cody vs Honda is a pain for sure. There is almost no reason for a person not to just down back cody all day except for the fear of a tic throw since his overhead doesn’t lead into anything. And Honda has a command throw which Cody doesn’t really want to be in range for. However unlike dealing with Gief or THawk, Cody can’t do a great job zoning Honda.
His rocks are all slow enough on start up that at many ranges Honda can reaction headbutt before they come out and either stuff the rocks or trade massively in Hondas favor. At some ranges even fake stone can be unsafe (It is 29F). Honda’s crouching hitbox is so low that a large number of Cody’s normals wont connect at all (far s.LP close s.LP close s.MK close s.HK, far s.HP all whiff completely on Honda. Most of those aren’t a big deal but losing his far s.HP really hurts his already weak zoning options.) Of course being a charge character Cody isn’t going to catch Honda standing up often so he can’t land f-HK or far standing HK since both always whiff on crouching opponents.
Trades are almost always in Honda’s favor due to the higher health and higher damage.”
Dan: 6.5-3.5
I talked with many dan players, including Ixion, the best Dan in Europe. They think Honda is one of Dan’s worst - borderline 7-3.
Dee Jay: 6-4
This match is interesting. Honda lose to fireball characters, and dee jay has a decent one, so normally Honda should lose this match.
But I talked with a good dee jay player and he explained me that Honda beats Dee Jay.
This is what he said: “DJ zoning isn’t great in this matchup. His normals isn’t good against Honda. I’m sure SNK can not name one normal that keeps Honda in place without taking huge risk. DJ has the same problems against Gief. It’s more to zoning than just having a good fireball. DJ doesn’t have tools like Ryu’s cr.mk, Guile’s st.fp/cr.mk/backfist, Chun’s far st.mp/hk/cr.hk, or Sagat’s far st.hk. His back dash isn’t great either. DJ’s farthest reaching pokes is cr.hk (14 frame startup and can be punished on block) , far st.hp (hitbox is made better for an AA but still get stuffed by some of Honda’s jumpins and it’s -9 on block. Yes -9 on block…Capcom does shit like that), far st.hk (starts up 11 frames and recovers at 23. Some reason Capcom made that hitbox to work as another sub par AA, but E.Honda stuffs that shit too). The most reliable tool is st.mk and it’s great against Honda’s buttons plus DJ loses down charge.
DJ AA are not dependable but his jump air to airs is good. The problem is that DJ needs to be in position to use them, plus it is harder to react with air to airs. People complain about DJ slide but empty jumps eat that shit alive, but Honda doesn’t have to empty jump, his j.mp stuffs that shit clean.”
So, basically, despite having a good fioreball, Dee Jay is unable to keep Honda out. I would like to add that Dee Jay’s dmg is nothing to write home about, while again, in this match Honda has some sweet character specific combos that ups his dmg to the sky.
Dhalsim: 6-4
Sim beats Honda for sure, but while I was tempted to call this match worse, I think it’s still quite manageable. True, Sim has an answer for everything and can keep honda out, but since Super, his dmg output was nerfed to death. Sim deals no dmg right now, so honda can afford to take some risks.
I talked with Snafoo and at one point he said the match is 5-5. This is what he said: “I think honda players just plays this matchup the wrong way. If you look at Mike Ross’s honda he beat F.champ (at devastation i think?) arturo at CEO and I back in Canada Cup 2011 (we did a FT5 and he won 5-2). Random headbutt has low risk and high reward in this matchup and that it goes through fireballs depending the distance. The buttslam vortex is really strong against sim since the guess is in honda’s favor. He’s walk speed/jump strong/dmg output tilts the matchup to even IMO. I suggest you guys watch Ross vs f.champ/arturo/FT 5 vs me (its on youtube somewhere) and look closely how he approaches this match.”
Dudley: 6-4
the consensus says Honda’s favour.
This is what a good dudley player said: "Dudley vs Honda: 4-6 (hard) for me this is arguably dudley’s worst matchup in the game.
Dudley is the one that needs to get in, it’s tough to get in and you can’t jump if honda has charge, his st.HP is also nice hitbox and can beat Dud’s j.HK well timed.
Honda’s best pokes are jab, st.hk, st.hp and can whiff punish dud since dudleys recovery is not so good.
Dudley’s best poke is st.HP, f.MP. st.HP is good at stuffing and whiff punishing hondas pokes on reaction just like honda can whiff punish with st.HP. Neither character can jump at each other esp with meter. Honda’s jab beats most of duds pokes, which is why duds st.HP is really needed her because it’s his best poke to stuff/whiff punish st.HP. honda’s jab hitbox makes it really hard to play footsies with and he can cancel into hands for safe pressure or combo. honda’s headbutts are safe (except HP HB which is punishable by MP MGB) but are all punishable by U1 on block. very good move to use vs dudley’s who don’t use u1 (which is the 100% preferred ultra vs honda for this reason alone) it will make the matchup much, much harder.
the honda needs good defense which makes mu harder because dudley has a tough time getting in and opening up honda for damage since he’s charge. hondas pokes are too good vs dudley. btw buttslams loses to dudleys cr.LK cr.MP cr.HP OS TC on the way up and meaty TC also makes dud block wake up ex headbutt. honda’s command grab should be used often when forcing dudley to block walk up jab xx hands which nets you knockdown. dudley has no wake up game, and needs 3 bars to be “safe.”
I will talk about the rest of the match ups later.
besides that the only other Honda I play that is actually gooood is Mr. Snk and I usually beat him a lot more than he beats me.”