Honda Match-up Thread: After the war 2010 AE

Weird, it looks like I’ve got better access to AE here in Australia than most in the US.

I’ve played a bunch of games and Honda is mostly the same, but overall weaker. Just noting a couple of specifics from memory -

LP headbutt:
Any fireball invincibility appears to be the same, but I’d leave this at “inconclusive”.
I was hoping to see lower body invincibility become a tool to anti-meaty jab opponents but it doesn’t seem to work out like that. It’s still as slow to start up as ever, would definitely prefer he kept upper body.

Headbutts vs Yoga Fires:
He’s lost front of body invincibility and I haven’t been able to trade at any time, with any timing, from any distance. This adversely affects the matchup as its much harder to get in and you have to become even MORE random and unsafe to try and catch him out. The change to the Ultra 1 means from even a little further than half screen you can react to the startup of a yoga fire and hit him.
Unfortunately, this is not always enough to turn a match and Dhalsims will soon learn to watch their mid distance fires.
In short, this matchup alone destroys honda as a competitive character.

Ultra 1:
As mentioned, no different in any way except full fireball invincibility. This is a help, but the slow startup and uncombo-ability of the move makes it a pale shadow of most character’s ultras.

Ultra 2:
The ability to jump out outweighs the usefulness of a quicker command input. You can’t catch people with it, you have to use it as a punish. Shame. If you’re good at baiting people to reversal you or like mashing during blockstrings, it might be ok but I don’t see much in the way of reliable setups. The opponent has time to just jump out.

Standing Fierce:
I haven’t been checking for its damage specifically, but its hitbox is the same. It’s no faster and you still have to space very carefully to use it as an anti air. Anecdotally, I became wary of using it in footsies with Zangief as it didn’t trade equally. Also, his stupid LP piledriver range reduces its usefulness. Good thing neutral jump HP is still good.

Jumping MP:
very noticeable loss in usefulness against awesome anti air characters like guile. Just have to play a risky buttsplash or walk forward game to get in. You can’t use it early like before with the same reliability.

In short, Honda has taken a step back and its left me hoping for further balance changes before AE becomes DLC. As a charge character he has natural disadvantages, but they’ve taken the best properties of his LP headbutt among other moves and so you have less opportunity to get opponents off you and getting into zoning characters is actually harder.

Thank Berzerk for the info.
I will continue to play Honda in AE but the loss of his LP dosukoi,Jump MP and U2 becomes 3 frames are painfull.

The end is nigh. Mike ross playing blanka in ae. May god have mercy on our souls, brothers

good riddance, although i wish him luck with DeeJay…i dont like playing guile type characters…it may sound hypocritical to people but i think guile/deejay are boring

I’ll add a little to this, simply a list of characters I’ve played against as Honda:

Chun Li: Harder than before thanks to j.MP change but largely the same. Painful. Get in and pressure.

Dhalsim: As mentioned, this may actually be “impossible” against a good player now. Honda does not have the right tools to win this.

Guile: I actually went 50/50 with a good Guile and had an 8 winning streak including about 3 wins over him before he beat me again. Buttsplash variations to get in and nj.HP to bait/counterhit his airgrab attempts, neutral jump from distance, etc. Not too much different than in Super.

Zangief: Played a lot of these matches. It’s harder for Honda now but definitely very winnable. This is perhaps a bit of a bright spot as Zangief gives a lot of other characters hell and Honda is quite hard for him. Dare I say 5/5 despite nerf? Advantage to Zangief if anything due to his improvements and Honda can’t trade well with him.

Ryu: Same as before, Ultra 1 is better but its still slow enough that good players won’t be too phased.

Ken: As above. I don’t do to badly against Ken most of the time.

Sagat: Still a nightmare. U1 can be nice but he has tons of damaging options in the keep-out zoning game that doesn’t rely on fireballs.

Yun/Yang: Haven’t been a big issue so far. I’d assume people are still working them out, but they have to get at Honda, and that means he can lay into them a bit. He should be ok against them but that’s very preliminary

Makoto: She’s much better, but not enough to tip against honda, if you play a good ground game and use jumping to space away from her, you should be fine.

All I can think of right now.

Having played a lot of AE, I can safely say the damage nerf is very noticeable and very terrible. Mike Ross said they made Honda “boring” and I completely understand what he means now. First off, you can’t take as many risks because if you guess wrong, it’s harder to make up the life. Also, no j. MP means you can’t approach as easily as before. The gap between cr. jab and HHS means your best offensive tool is now only an annoyance. So turtling all day is the only way to win. Cr. jab xx HHS, FADC, HP Ochio is no longer worth it, unless you really need a knockdown. Meter is worth its weight in gold, and the damage is pathetic. Standing fierce really does do 80 damage. A 10F mid that does 80 damage is unacceptable.

He still mains Honda, but he’s picking up a few secondaries to deal with some bad match ups. If you plan on maining Honda, you’ll need them.

Dudley can still punish Ex-HB with U1.

And I’ll have some more Random footage soon.

I’m pretty sure Ross actually said on the WCW3 stream that he dropped honda in favour of blanka, but I could be wrong. Either way, I hate capcom!

How can you not? They’re really doing some stupid shit to the cast.

To be honest. Even though my character got nerfed I freaking love how fast paced the game is now. It’s back to vanilla basics where you can rush a mug don and he can’t run away for 99 seconds. Super was really freaking boring and I didn’t feel lik eI was playing the SF I enjoy. AE gives me that CvS2 feeling where I never wanted to stop playing it.

I also like that all of the turtle characters got nerfed and it feels like the damage in total was toned down. So you really have to be more aggressive to see better results. “And that alone has made me enjoy playing SF more” It’s not easy to rtsd but I’ve been goofing around with more Shoto’s it’s really a new game. Most of us really didn’t abuse the power of down back in super as we should have. Therefore I really don’t think I can bitch that much. Yeah it sucks but I’ll get over it.

Thanks for the vids and info fellas. Holy shit @MrSNK linking 3 ex hhs!

How are the rog, rufus, cammy, dee jay, viper and gouken matchups looking so far? Mike Ross said somewhere that rufus still beats honda :frowning:

I can understand it because Sagat is back and Dhalsim is now hard as my balls, he is a top tournament player and picking a character with such awful match ups is plain suicide.

But most us are not that and barely face top levels opponents, I don’t go to tournaments and now I will enjoy real challenge…

And anyway, they are going to buff Honda in the next revision as soon the use of the character drops badly, of course then Ross will main him again and the endless cycle of nerf -> buff -> nerf will repeat itself.

I’m sure this is the last revision of SF4 unless capcom wants to fuck over arcades once more (They wont’) after marvel 3 comes out stay tuned for evil ryu/SF AE console teasing for at least 3-4 months until they release some SFxT gameplay and trailers or 3S online stuff

this version of honda is here to stay, I’ve still yet to get my hands on AE but if s.hp is actually 80 damage I’m going to be sad as hell.

Ok, updating(updates in red), thanks everyone!:

  • How bad is the damage nerf?
    pretty bad, ex hands combos are a must now.(will test and post character specific stuff, help needed)
    “new” bnb: c.MK xx EX hands(moving forward), c.LP xx HP hands, s.HK
    meter is worth gold now for EX headbutt(defense) and EX hands(damage)
  • Any word on his far s.HP getting a slightly better hitbox or smaller “hurtbox”(for AA purposes)?
    no but seems like it does 80 dmg now.
  • Or about ex headbutt getting less recovery?([media=youtube]fzHOHet4xKM#t=18m37s"[/media])
    no, dudley has to block it standing
    -Or about going through yoga fires with HP/EX headbutt?
    that option is gone now :frowning:
    -Or about LP headbutt going through c.LPs/c.LKs?
    c.LKs=yes, c.LPs=no :frowning:
    -Or about LP headbutt still being projectile invincible during startup?
    yes
    -Or about his s.LP having faster startup?
    nothing conclusive yet, seems like a no.
  • What’s the fuzz about his c.MK having a “weird timing” to be cancelled into hands/headbutt?
    seems like nothing either.
  • And has the “meaty” oicho bug been fixed?([media=youtube]Q2ycfX_jxwY"[/media])
    debunked as a bug, it’s a part of the game engine.
    Disclaimer: I thought it was possible to “pseudo frame trap” an opponent between block stun and a special throw(with jumping and reversals as escapes) but seems like the game makes you unthrowable for at least a couple of frames coming out of blockstun.

NEW QUESTIONS:
About the jumping MP nerf:

  • seems like its hitbox is smaller now?
  • seems like its hurtbox is bigger now?(like ryu’s c.mk nerf)
  • seems like its active frames have been reduced?
  • all of the above?

About MP/HP headbutt:

  • Do they have projectile invincibility during startup now?

Ok, here’s something for now. I’m guessing the gent who runs the Ranbats will start and an arcade tourney soon.

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[media=youtube]iWjkEOjBoNk[/media]
[media=youtube]L1LI5kJUzuw[/media]
[media=youtube]o6RiNdS4gNw[/media]
[media=youtube]0oQaPEcRVMU[/media]
[media=youtube]srJ_0KR0-TQ[/media]
[media=youtube]YqJYua7MXsg[/media]

I’m really out of the loop, I should have just posted this in here.

Do you think that the (potential) balance changes could be patched to the arcade machines? They connect to the internets, don’t they?

I’ve been playing AE in Nashville some, and all I really want is my lp HB back… I can get used to everything else.

any good honda players wanna play my fuerte FT10. I have a pretty good fuerte, and I wanna learn this matchup since its one of the harder ones. You will get real familiar with this match, send me a msg on xbl: sPaB RoG

Couldn’t sleep so I did this:

demo 1
honda vs ken
1:03 “new” standing bnb for shotos-small sized chars
1:51 2 EX hands linked and a “reset” into regular HP hands
2:16 excelent neutral jump punish
honda vs akuma
5:32 jump in combo into 3 EX hands into HP hands for 60% damage!!!

demo 2
dee jay vs honda
0:44 y 1:11 jumping mp beats dee jay slide? also counter j.mp into c.LP into HP hands into s.HK for about 35% of damage
2:40 slide beats jumping mp
honda vs yun
4:44 empty jump into ultra 2
5:39 c.LP beats yun’s dive kick
honda vs yun

demo 3
honda vs dudley
1:36 dudley’s ultra 1 punishes a blocked ex headbutt
2:42 dudley’s j.HK? now scores a knockdown

demo 4
honda vs dudley
3:39 ex hands bnb
5:08 jump in into hads into super
honda vs yun
9:12 c.LP into hands into c.LP into hands(into super) doesn’t hit a standing yun but it does hit a crouching yun

demo 5
honda vs dee jay
0:37 a j.mp vs c.hk trade is on dee jay’s favor(and j.mp loses at 0:55)
1:27 j.mk, c.LP into hands, small step forward c.LP into hands
1:39 dudley’s j.mp(or is it hp?) trades with honda’s jesus chop in honda’s favor!
2:14 new ultra 1 goes through slow fireball
honda vs ken
3:25 jesus chop does as much(if not more) damage than j.HP?
3:38 LP headbutt goes through c.MK

demo 6
honda vs dee jay
0:57 c.LP into ex hands into c.LP into hands

demo 8
honda vs akuma
2:43 c.LP into hands into super

ultra 1 test
0:57 nice autocorrect ultra
1:37 c.LP into hands into super
4:04 jump in into c.LP xx hands into super
4:32 great read for the ultra 1 going through a fireball at 3/4s of the screen

Only in Japan, unfortunately. None of the North American set ups are connected to the AE network.

^ Sup Spab Rog. :razz: If any of you are looking for Fuerte match up experience, I recommend that you take him up on this. Spab Rog is probably one of the best Fuertes on the East Coast, really smart player.