That’s all one combo? Jesus
so is the best use of meter EX HHS? I was just reading the top of this page and got a little confused as to whether ex HHS was better than super for use of meter or not…
It depends on the matchup. Often I’d say it’s best to just save meter for EX Headbutt, like when the character you’re fighting has strong close-range pressure, or when EX HB is the only reliable anti-air against them. If you’re fighting somebody where you, as Honda, do more of the offense, then spending meter for 320+ damage EX Hands combos is pretty awesome.
Technically, EX HHS combos are more efficient than Super in terms of how much damage you do per meter spent. However, they are MUCH harder to execute, and Super also lets you get that big damage off of st.HP, st.MP, and as an anti-air (LP version). Which use of meter is most effective is up to you to decide in the context of the match you’re playing. I personally never intentionally save up for Super, though I will use it if I find myself having 4 bars and a good situation arises.
Whatever you do, just DO NOT SPEND BAR TO FADC HANDS ON HIT. If the hands are blocked, it’s OK every once and a while to keep your opponent on their toes, but on hit, the grab hardly gains you any damage at all if it lands, AND it’s a huge risk. It’s also just easy for somebody to listen to your inputs and mash a reversal as soon as they hear you press buttons during HHS.
Does anybody here use the Back/Select-plinking trick? I just swapped my back button and PPP button today to try to start using this technique to make EX Hands combos easier. It’s easy to link a jab after EX HHS with this, but now I have to find a new finger technique to cancel to HP Hands.
An ex hands combo using two bars does about 25 - 45 damage less than the equivalent super combo depending on what combo you do
Quick example using Sagat as the dummy.
Typical punish combo into super : Cr Mk xx HHS xx HHS xx Super = 513 damage
Equivalent punish combo using 2 ex hands : Cr Mk xx HHS xx Ex HHS - Cr Lp xx Ex HHs - Cr lp xx HHS xx HHS = 470 - 486 damage (I don’t know why the number of hits you get varies).
That gap seems to hold true for the majority of possible combos on characters where ex hands works well.
Obviously the benefits of doing the extended ex combos are saving over 2 meters and racking up alot of stun, the glaring drawback being they are prohibitively difficult and it may not be worth risking a big punish oppurtunity on a combo that ya may well drop.
Just for the fun of it, a combo using 4 ex meters, again on Sagat
Cr Mk xx Ex HHS - Cr Lp xx HHS - Cr Lp xx Ex HHS - Cr Lp xx Ex HHS - Cr Lp xx Ex HHS - Cr Lp xx HHS xx HHS = 541 damage and if you can do that combo 3 times in a row your a better man than me.
I experimented with it for a while before retiring, I think it’s an option but I didn’t have the time to use it in real matches. I used it for the last combo of this video, you can (barely)see the double LPs at the beginning of each c.LP xx EX hands. I can’t really say it’s better because when I did that video my execution was very, very poor and I did better using the LP plink than using real timing(because my 1 frame timing sucked at that moment). Hey if it works for you, it works!
Almost forgot the link, here: [media=youtube]wxuEPcmHG7Q[/media]
Can you please explain this to me? 
I’d like to take a minute to talk about in-game situations where using the combos.
I am finding HHS->HHS they need to be right in the corner. Is this true?
Can you please explain the input that you use to do EX HHS? I am just mashing all three punches at once. Can you do something like lp,mp,hp,mp+hp? Or do you need to do one more input?
Is your best bet using EX HHS hitting them once you have already hit them with a FP HHS? It seems kind of risky to waste meter on one otherwise.
As far as using Super in game, I find the easiest way for me to hit with it is jump FP, cr mk, fp headbutt into super. don’t you find it hard to find spots where you can go FP-> super or cr. m->super ? I saw mike ross do the FP one before but I find those situations EXTREMELY hard to come by! Plus its hard to do!(or maybe im just doing it wrong?)
As far as HHS->FADC->oicho, is it worth it to sometimes mix them up with jump forward FP? I know it doesn’t do much damage but it really catches them off guard because they think they are being smart by jumping backwards to avoid your oicho and then BAM. I can usually hit with an oicho throw once they have landed too because they are so rattled from it although I have played people who seem to be able to jump back before I can actually even catch them with the FP so they still escape, it seems to mostly just work against neutral jump.
Lastly I was just wondering if Super is a better alternative to Ultra1 for use as an anti air… It comes out faster, but if you have enough time to go for the ultra, should you do the ultra and save your super since it carries over til the next round? I have discovered recently that those annoying divekick mixups can be ultra’d if they try and hit you in front! Although sometimes they have enough time to jump over you, then jump over you again, negating any charge that you have :s
Also, is it possible to Auto-Correct super or ultra? (btw I only use ultra 1 I find ultra 2 too hard to hit with but maybe I should consider it, I can never seem to find the situations)
pls note that U2 has a 5 frame startup which is insanity, I only use it to just rub salt into my opponents
is 5 frames slow quite? like what is U1?
Nope, you can do it anywhere, however depending on what character your opponent is using most hits of the second HHS won’t hit and the opponet might be able to counter you.
Yes, you can do lp,mp,hp,mp+hp. You only need 5 inputs, only the last one is used to determine what’s the HHS version you’ll get.
EX HHS usage mostly depends on your meter management or style of play. After a fierce HHS an EX HHS is a character specific option if you’re aiming for a c.LP xx HHS afterwards. Some people like Mike Ross prefer to go for the s.HK most of the time to save the meter for EX Headbutt or super. Look in this thread for the “jewelman combo” and many other EX combos if you’re interested in optimized ways to combo into and from EX hands.
It’s not hard to do once you get used to the buffer, what’s hard is to get the charge in most footsie situations where you’re forward/back dancing. You can also cancel into super from the first 4 hits of a fierce HHS and from the first frames(while honda still has both feet on the ground) of an anti air jab Headbutt or an “anti low” strong headbutt.
Mike Ross does that all the time but in our case depending on the oponent we have to condition them first: make them afraid of the oicho threat.
Hitbox wise Ultra 1 is the best anti air once it’s going, but jab super has the most invincibility frames at startup. So at startup is best to use jab super, and Ultra 1 is better to punish neutral/backwards jumps. That doesn’t mean that you can’t also anti air forward jumps with Ultra 1 but you only have one frame of invincibility after it’s active. I wouldn’t use neither to punish divekick mixups altho sometimes I used to use Ultra 1 in corner situations to escape the corner but it was mostly out of frustration.
Yes, you can auto correct both and the window to do it is much bigger than auto correcting with EX headbutt. I haven’t really played much after they changed the Ultra 2 motion so I can’t really say if you can autocorrect with it.
Erm, nope, Ultra 2 has 1 frame of startup(same as Zangief U1), the BIG difference is that Honda’s 1 frame of startup happens AFTER the ultra freeze so if the opponent is not doing anything at that time and holds up he will jump as soon as the ultra freeze is over. Zangief’s one frame of startup happens BEFORE the ultra freeze so whatever you do while he does his pose, says “for mother russia” and goes for the bro hug is irrelevant.
His regular/EX oicho has 5 frames of startup. His ultra 1 has 11 frames of startup.
Thank you I didn’t realize you that supers change with different punch/kick strengths! Also I thought only FP could be comboed into Super, not all three!! That makes going through sagat’s low fireballs even more dangerous! I think you can also mp headbutt through dhalsim’s fireballs I read somewhere… gonna have to try that
Like I said, you can only cancel Headbutt into Super at startup so it’s not like you can pass through a low fireball from full screen and cancel into super afterwards(also you wouldn’t have a charge by that time, opponent might be able to block, etc etc), it’s only in close quarters.
You could go through/trade with dhalsim’s yoga fires using fierce/EX headbutt in super but they removed that in AE. You can go through any fireball with jab/strong headbutt but only at startup and it requires strict timing. Otherwise most of the times you will trade because the fireball will hit your feet or you will just get hit because the opponent was not close enough to get hit. Still, it’s an option.
Since gutabo didn’t answer this…I’m sure you’re aware that you can plink to make links into normals easier by hitting the button for the normal, followed by a button for a “weaker” normal 1f later, which causes the first input to repeat on the 2nd frame as well, doubling your chance to hit a 1f link. However, you can’t plink jabs since there is no weaker button.
Well, it turns out that for some reason, the Back/Select button is actually weaker than jab, and you can therefore plink with it. What some people do (including Daigo, I’ve heard) is mod their sticks so that the back button is in a more accessible place, i.e. swapping it with the PPP/KKK buttons. This is theoretically useful for Honda, as linking cr.LP after EX Hands is a 1f link; the problem is that now you’ve technically hit two punch inputs, thus needing 3 more inputs ending in HP to get a HP Hands. This means I have to find a totally new finger technique, because I normally do Hands with LP- HP - MP - LP - HP, so I was wondering if any other Honda players have found a good way to do this.
I posted somewhere(don’t have the link ATM) the many methods I had for hands/EX hands since I’m an old man and if I use a method too much it’ll make my hand hurt. For EX hands I had(warning, most of them use the 3P extra button, gasp!):
- LP, HP, MP, LP, MP+HP (piano)
- LP, HP, MP, LP, 3P (using the pinky finger for the extra 3P button, most used)
- LP with index button, slide thumb over LP, MP, HP, 3P (backup method)
and a couple more methods that were ONLY to be used after a HP hands.
What I did in the video was modify the third method listed above by plinking the LP button(using the thumb) with the back button(middle/ring button in TE sticks since it’s in the top/side, ring/pinky finger in Hori Real Arcade Pro sticks) to get 2 LP inputs and then just continue to slide the thumb over MP, HP and 3P to get the EX hands. I don’t really know how does that help you (I hope it does in some way) but that’s what I used. I actually thought about modifying my stick but real life priorities took over and soon afterwards I retired so I couldn’t really test the plink method in real play. Also where I used to go for local battles (when I did play in tourneys) had crappy plasma/LCD screens, all of them with different lag input times so I mostly relied on the Jewelman.
You made me realize I had a ton of alternate hands methods, I might make a tutorial video (with the usual crappy quality, of course) showing them for anyone that might give a fudge.
Why do you need to plink? if the opponent blocks the first hit of the link, will the lighter normal come out? or does it still act the same way and just repeat your last input? I’m guessing it just makes the link easier but if you can nail the link every try is it really necessary?
Some links are easier because there’s a rhythm invloved in them. The time/animation gap after EX hands makes it a bit more difficult because it’s a big gap. Most of us have no problem (HAD in my case, I’m retired) in doing a single one frame link, but doing four of them in a row(like in my vid) is pretty difficult at home and even harder in a tourney environment. Sure, you can do them the regular “hardcore” way but if your name is not sako you will be missing them more often than not. Plinking is a choice in most combos with other characters to make said combos easier to perform, so why we should not use something that increases our chances, on in this case, doubles them? The difficulty for us lies in the position of the back button, and that’s why there’s people that modify their sticks to be able to do easier links(and some don’t even use honda, like Daigo). To answer your other question, the nature of plinking a regular attack makes it the fastest possible way to register two button presses(yes, even faster than the fastest turbo) of the same attack, so there’s no “other” normal that will come out if it’s blocked(or not): you will only get one normal and that’s the stronger one.
I think I get it, so its just in case you hit the second attack in your link 1 frame too early, this creates a 2nd opportunity for the same link to come out 1 frame later.
Just saw this: [media=youtube]Jdn-ahvKtlA[/media]
At about 16 seconds in, Owarire does cr.MK xx HHS, cr.LP xx HHS on standing Gouken. That caught my eye as I didn’t know you could do that to him, so I went into training mode and tried it…and it didn’t work. I was quite puzzled for a while, until I realized that you actually have to take a tiny step forward after the HHS, then do the cr.LP in order for it to reach Gouken. This actually does a little more damage than the BNB combo with st.HK since most or all the hits of the second HHS connect, and it builds more meter, so there’s no reason to not do this. It’s not crazy hard either.
I haven’t seen this combo documented on here, so I’m probably gonna try it out on some of the other wide characters.
EDIT: It technically works on a lot of characters (pretty much everybody that gets hit by the Jewelman combo while standing), but the second HHS whiffs some hits on most of them, so it does less damage than the regular BnB and probably isn’t worth it.
The characters I found it to be useful on are Cammy, Gouken, T Hawk, and Zangief. You get somewhere between 7-20 extra damage and stun, and a little extra meter.
I’m curious, why nobody is using Jewelman combo(s) ? I’ve never seen Mike Ross doing it, neither Cuongster, or any other honda player in a tournament.
I mean, at least on paper that combo should be awesome - almost 350 dmg from an easy hit confirm with only 1 bar ? But it seems nobody is using it. So, what’s the reason ? The combo is really difficult to perform, or is something else ?
The biggest problem is the 1f link after the ex hands. Maybe on paper it looks like you should always go for it because hhs is safe on block if you miss the link, but what if you’re playing against a sagat who mashes uppercut, fadc to ultra? Other than that Mike Ross always wastes his meter on full screen ex headbutts and hhs fadc grab shenanigans, and Cuongster seems to like using super.
I’m not really sure either though
I asked Mike at CC this year that question and it was as simple as you’d expect. Keep the meter for reversals.
More like keep the meter to waste on Hands FADC. It causes me physical pain every time I see Mike Ross still doing that stupid shit