Good experiments deadfrog. I agree with everything. Command normals like Dhalsim’s Drills tho seem like they all give the same stun regardless if it’s Short or Roundhouse Drill. And Overheads seem to give more hitstun on a crouching opponent than on a standing opponent, tho I’m not sure about Blanka’s b Strong overhead, it seems to give the same hitstun as on a standing opponent. I could be wrong tho, and it would be best to wait for a confirmed translation.
Nice thread. I’m actually in the middle of a two-month business trip in Tokyo, so unfortunately I don’t have the time (or resources) to test anything out, but I just wanted to say good job. :tup: I had no idea that character get-up speed influenced hit-stun/block-stun. :wow:
Wait, I’m not sure the first hit of fei’s super knocks down. I know the opponent is in hitstun for at least the first three hits. The last hit definitely, but I don’t think the first hit does. Unless it freezes them at ground level.
blitzfu: Thanks, but give me less credit, man. All I’ve done is tell you some numbers and show you where to look for more info. You created and and are maintaining the thread. The YBH numbers are available right there in geo’s scans (I’d love to give a full rundown on the text but I don’t feel confident enough with my very limited Japanese; maybe you could try nh2 if he has the time).
Anyway, let me clarify some points:
- YBH simply says specials are 20 frames hitstun/blockstun and that the stun for special normals (e.g. Ryu’s f.MP) and supers is varying.
- The frames for each character waking up have nothing to do with blockstun; I just mentioned that because all supers and some specials will end up in knockdown when they fully connect, and that the knockdown time there is the same as with a normal sweep knockdown. I noted that some supers (like Ryu and Blanka) might not knockdown in certain circumstances and it’s not clear what the hitstun would be in those cases. Nor is it clear in any situation what the blockstun of a super would be.
- Forget what was mentioned in the other topic. Based on the 2nd bullet on the right, it actually appears for all attacks on a crouching opponent, there’s an additional 5 frame hitstun for medium attacks and a 10 frame hitstun for heavy attacks. So aerial vs. crouching should be 11/16/21 and standing vs. crouching should be 11/21/30.
Okayyyy. So let’s all try going through the whole thing.
For normals:
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ground attacks blocked by a standing opponent cause 11/16/20 frames of blockstun
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ground attacks blocked by a crouching opponent cause 11/16/20 frames of blockstun
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ground attacks hitting a standing opponent cause 11/16/20 frames of hitstun
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ground attacks hitting a crouching opponent cause 11/21/30 frames of hitstun
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jump attacks blocked (opponent must be standing) cause 11/16/20 frames of blockstun
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jump attacks hitting a standing opponent cause 11/11/11 frames of hitstun
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jump attacks hitting a crouching opponent cause 11/16/21 frames of hitstun
Please correct whatever is not right!
Ryu can combo a sweep afterwards, you need more than 1 frame of advantage for that.
Thanks Ganelon and deadfrog. I updated the 1st post and translation request as well.
That’s great. That actually solves Overhead hitsun vs a standing (16) or crouching opponent (21). That makes sense, and I’m guessing it applies to all Overheads: Ken, Guile and Fei.
Uhhh, maybe not. LOL This info keeps changing faster than the news. Tho it has to do more with misunderstandings on my part than anything else. We’ll get it right tho. Thanks NKI.:china:
Stuff
Ok, so I was right. I was almost convinced though because the ST engine is just so supremely wacky at times!
I’ve seen several posts in the ST forum where people have said that “taking the hit” makes it easier to counter throw. But I’ve also seen people say that it’s a myth. If we now have conclusive proof, then this is huge.
And now to the topic of Ryu’s overhead…
Ok, so taking everything we know into account:
- Ryu’s overhead has 17 startup frames, hits for 2 frames, hits again for 3 frames, then has 10 recovery frames.
- Assuming the overhead hits a crouching opponent (since it’s an overhead), the opponent feels 16+5=21 frames of hitstun.
Ryu’s frame advantage is therefore: 21-(3+10) = +8 frame advantage.
This seems very high to me; it doesn’t feel right.
Fulaani: it would allow a cr.HK to be combo’d into it, since Ryu’s cr.HK has 4 startup frames and hits on the 5th frame. Is this what you meant?
Yeah, you were right. I wasn’t completely convinced either, since a blocked Shoryuken doesn’t give 80+ frames of blockstun. I’d have been easily able to tick throw after Ken’s blocked Jab Shoryuken. But yeah, this game can convince someone of almost anything. LOL That’s what makes understanding frame data so difficult. But that’s also why I love it, so unpredictable and random lol.
That sounds exactly right.
8 frames of advantage is not unusually high.
Another piece of evidence that we have the Overhead numbers right is that a standing Medium Normal on a crouching opponent is the same amount of hitstun as a Hard Jumping Normal on a crouching opponent: 21 frames. That much I’m sure of, Ryu’s j.Roundhouse and Overhead give the same amount of hitstun on a crouching opponent.
I did some quick calculations for each Overhead in the game, and the numbers look right. Assuming Guile’s Overhead has the same hitting and recovery frames as his close RH in Classic ST, and assuming the 2nd hit of Blanka’s close b Strong is a “true” Overhead:
Ryu’s Overhead vs a standing opponent: 16-(3+10) = 3 frame advantage
Ryu’s Overhead vs a crouching opponent: 21-(3+10) = 8 frame advantage
Ken’s Overhead vs a standing opponent: 16-(6+8) = 2 frame advantage
Ken’s Overhead vs a crouching opponent: 21-(6+8) = 7 frame advantage
Fei’s Overhead vs a standing opponent: 16-(5+15) = -4 frame disadvantage
Fei’s Overhead vs a crouching opponent: 21-(5+15) = 1 frame advantage
Guile’s Overhead vs a standing opponent: 16-(6+16) = -6 frame disadvantage
Guile’s Overhead vs a crouching opponent: 21-(6+16) = -1 frame disadvantage
Blanka’s close b Strong vs a standing opponent: 16-(5+13) = -2 frame disadvantage
Blanka’s close b Strong vs a crouching opponent: 21-(5+13) = 4 frame advantage
Yeah, it looks right. Ken’s Overhead is just a little harder to combo a sweep after than Ryu’s, plus you have to do it closer and meatier with Ken than Ryu.
Comparison shopping…
Dictator’s st.LK is a ridiculous normal (only 3 frames startup, hits for 2, recovers in 1!) and it gives 11-(2+1) = +8 frame advantage. Ryu’s overhead is supposed to be +8 as well? If you play around with them, they just don’t feel the same.
Don’t forget that Ryu’s Overhead only gives +8 on a crouching opponent, while Dictator’s st Short gives +8 on both standing and crouching opponents. I think the timing to combo sweep after Ryu’s Overhead on a crouching opponent is the same timing as Dictator’s cr Forward after st Short.
Edit: BTW I PM’d nohoho, so hopefully he can help.
Blankas close st.mp, 3/4/3, can combo into cr.rh which has a 10 fr. startup or cr.fp which has a 9 fr. startup (you see that link in actual matchvids).
Both without a meaty setup on standing opponents.
Yeah it does. So does Ryu’s cr.Short into sweep combo. But I don’t think it’s simply the frame data that might be wrong. The game itself doesn’t recognize cr.Short into sweep as a combo (you won’t get 2 hit combo message), but I assure you it’s unblockable. That might be due to a lot of things (frame skipping, whatever) tho, so I think it’s best to get another translation of the YBH, instead of wondering whether we’ve got it right or wrong.
oh the one I mentioned does get registered as a combo. I was just using it as an example that 8fr advantage is not unusual.
If a jab or short are used and the enemy is still in hitstun, they do less hitstun.* Does anyone know how much less, and if it applies to strong/forward and fierce/roundhouse?
*the credit of the information is not mine. Someone else posted that Ryu can never use short xx hadouken after another attack and have 3 or more continuous hits. I have tested, it is true.
It doesn’t have anything to do with hitstun or blockstun, but rather the rules of the game. Excerpt from Chain Cancel Article by Majestros:
“Throughout the SF2 series, whenever a standing light attack is chained into another standing light attack, the successor loses any special move cancelability it may normally possess.”
This applies to all Standing/Crouching Light Normals being cancelled into Specials, but doesn’t apply to Medium or Hard Normals. I highly recommend reading the whole article.
That is not the issue, man. You can try to combo after crossup roundhouse, cr.strong or whatever so that it is the first time you use short in the combo. It will just not connect. As an instance, load the game and try crossup roundhouse, (land) cr.short xx hadouken. Then get up close, and do cr.short xx hadouken.
Yes it is the same issue. You didn’t read the whole article did you?
“Another way to bypass the chain combo lockout is through a technique called renda-kara-canceling. After chaining together two or more standing light attacks, it’s still possible to perform a crouching light attack then immediately kara-cancel into a special move before the crouching attack fully animates. Executed with enough precision, most special moves will connect before the opponent recovers from hit stun inflicted by the final standing attack. Of course, the same principle works for multiple crouching light attacks, with a kara-canceled standing attack substituted at the end.”