s.mp>s.lp>s.mp links too
There’s a thread about it somewhere that explains it in depth but basically if you hit two buttons at once there’s a hierarchy in place that gives you the stronger button.
So what plinking is, is pressing two buttons at once (for example mp and lp) but pressing the stronger button (in this case mp) slightly earlier such that you get this in the input display (newer commands appear above):
:lp::mp:
:mp:
In SSF4, those two lines count as separate inputs as long as you do them within one frame of each other, even if you physically hit the buttons almost at the same time.
Since you hit mp+lp one frame after you hit mp, you count as inputting mp for two frames in a row, which for practical purposes makes any one-frame link into a two-frame link, or a two-frame link into a three-framer, etc.
Only thing is you can’t plink if you’re linking into standing lp, standing lk, or crouching lp. There are other details, but that’s more or less the story.
Slightly delayed HK Tsurugi will tag slow-to-average backdashes (Abel, Ryu, etc.) after a corpse-hop mixup. Not safe in any way, shape or form, will lose to every AA reversal you could care to name. However, since all the other corpse-hop options (kara-chop, kara-kara, sweep) are backdashable, it’s potentially worth playing with. I was trying to see if I could find any particular combination of tsurugi strength and timing that would hit cross-up (like the safe tsurugi set-up off a back throw sometimes can), but I didn’t have any luck.
Also, it seems like the only kara-kara worth doing post-Hayate is EX (which is excellent; my testing has it at roughly a 3-frame gap from HP Hayate, and of course it’ll eat attempts to poke you out). Kara-LK is a frame or so faster than the fake kara HK, so it may be worthwhile, but I find it really hard to do by comparison to the other kara-karas. Kara-MK doesn’t give you any speed benefit over fake kara due to the kara startup…
… now to get my execution near enough the point of reliability that I dare kara-EX-kara in an actual match.
ed: looks like v-ryu’s been updating his other mixup thread and I didn’t notice. Seems kara-EX-kara is a 4-f gap.
Mk tsurugi can cross up in the corner i think
Makoto’s Guessing game is about as risky as Abel’s but without the pay off. Can I get some help? I usually cross up after a knock down into a st.mp mix up. What else could I be doing?
Wow I really should check this forum more often. Stuff here I haven’t even ehard of before haha.
f.fp, c.fp -> ia cross over, kara-kara(fp), f.mp tick -> kara-grab
high fives
so what you’re saying is… we’re nasty.
the new vbulletin is so buggy
Hi I’ve been learning makoto for a while now and i main Vega and second Sakura. i want to know what do you guys do right when the match begins, when things are completely neutral. the other player seems to constantly turtle and keep me out and i have nothing to do about it. what are some good tips and tricks to get around over defensive players?
just be patient, makoto’s damage potential is high amount other characters,
just approach them slowly, but if you have ex metre, just kara-ex hayate and you can start you mix ups and karakusas after your next to them.
It depends, I either just go on an offensive right away with for example tsurugi, or F+mk,Hk, Ex-hayate, F+Mp or St.Mp against Dhalsim/Seth or something to close the gap immediately. Or I just sit back and focus some Fireballs/ built some meter untill I have some ex. meter to play with or Ultra.
i’ve post this long time ago in another thread (dont remember), but because its again a “meaty”, i didnt think it was good to post it in the OP. But a friend told me “oh you should”.
So…
st.HK can be used as meaty too. You can do:
st. HK -> st.MP -> EX hayate/oroshi
st. HK -> ultra1
st. HK -> st. HP -> EX hayate (chara specific)
and, meaty cr.MK as well.
edit:
arf, wrong thread!
Few things, firstly a good way to ensure you get a kara hp fukiage juggle after a fukiage is to use the auto correct dp trick and buffer dp for both sides (db, df, db, df)then kara the fukiage in the direction they fly.
Secondly experimenting with aa cr mk-ex karakusa, and seems to work in limited testing. So the cr mk ducks her hitbox (like akuma cr mk xx demon), then ex karakusa comes out straight after so she can do it lower (i think?). Hoping it works that way and her hitbox doesnt auto rise in between animations. Seemed to work vs ryu jump rh, just it has to be deep cause the range is so bad. Anyone know if this is legitimate? I had a friend check the hitbox vids and cr mk was the lowest for the longest.
Lastly charging a hp hayate post hayate hit is ok if u think they will jump back, time it to hit them as they land and you should be at -4 and spaced, so only shotos or 3f or quicker moves can punish on block. Most importantly it keeps you on top of them. So yeh just some ideas.
Edit- thought of one more thing, an os for tsurugi juggle post fukiage when you’re not sure of the side they’ll fly. So you neutral jump, then input qcb, HCF+ k or qcf, HCB +k relatively fast so you get the buffer on each side. I know you can confirm it, but this just stops any wrong guessing and i seem to cross myself up metally a bit sometimes and miss the juggle, so i think it would eliminate that.
Before I get into the main subject of this post, minor note so it doesn’t get lost in the mire:
After an EX Hayate in the corner, if Ryu quick stands, it seems you can cross him up with a meaty instant MK Tsurugi. The timing is tight, you have to wait a bit before jumping. I only found this while I was testing the subject below, so I had Makoto as player 1 and I don’t even know for certain that it actually crosses up. Assumptions for the moment:
-MK Tsurugi crosses up and allows combos afterward, HK and early MK whiff, LK and late MK hit non-crossup.
-It’s probably not Ryu specific, he was just who I was testing it on. It hits him while he’s in the quickstand mandatory stand-block frame, so it probably works on several characters.
-Unsure if it can be DP’ed or if you’ll just fly past him.
A while back before the game was out I was speculating on empty Tsurugi mixups on enemy wakeup and with some testing I’ve started to incorporate more of them. It’s a nice mixup that serves a similar purpose to the corpse hop, but it is more ambiguous and gives you a better setup, although tighter on timing.
I’d love to show video of it if I could, but I don’t have any recording equipment, so I’ll do my best. Would be appreciated if someone else could reproduce and upload for ease of explanation though.
Explanation of Concept
You might have seen the concept from a Viper or Cammy player with their air specials. Do an untechable knockdown (usually backthrow), jump and do burning kick/cannon strike to bring you to the ground. The special can cross up or not cross up depending on the button they press for the special and the time at which they activate it. Either way, the special whiffs and you land with the enemy still knocked down, with time to block a reversal, or perform a meaty attack/throw.
The obvious advantages of doing this:
- You can perform nearly all of your meaty ground mixup from this setup.
- In addition to your regular mixup, it can come ambiguously from either side of the opponent.
- If the opponent wants to reversal you, the autocorrect window has already passed, so they usually have to actually guess the correct direction.
Therein lies the main purpose, as a crossup it’s ambiguous but not oppressively so, the real strength is that it can make the opponent hesitant to try a wakeup special/backdash, and make them respect your mixup.
Note on point 3: Obviously weak against flash-kick type moves. Also, characters with SRK motions for their important reversals can do :db::df::db::df: to get their SRK off regardless of where you landed (since it counts as both :db::d::db: and :df::d:::df:), so it is less effective against shotos (if they are knowledgable.) The characters this is most effective against are ones with quarter-circle or half-circle motions for their important reversals (examples: Rufus, Abel, Juri) and charge characters with important horizontal reversals (Bison, Balrog.)
It is still definitely worth doing against SRK/Flash Kick characters, though, because the jump special itself is perfectly safe and you can still always block their reversal after landing, and if you don’t think they’ll try one, you can proceed with your ambiguous crossup mixup. To add even more teeth to this situation, you can mix up between this empty crossup and actually hitting the opponent with the special move, or doing a real jumping crossup if the setup allows for it.
Applications for Makoto
After the setup you will be very close to the opponent while they’re still knocked down, easily in karakusa range. You can land several meaty normals including s.MP after the Tsurugi, or a meaty regular throw, or you can do a meaty LK Karakusa and be safe from jabs/throws. You may not have time for an Oroshi depending on the setup and how early you chose to do the crossup/noncrossup, but you can always do meaty s.MP xx Oroshi. If the enemy likes to try to OS tech or stand tech your mixup, you can karakusa them, or land from the Tsurugi and immediately do another Tsurugi (which also tends to beat wakeup backdash.)
Makoto has many opportunities to land this kind of mixup. Backthrow, HP/EX Oroshi, and Ultra 1 all provide untechable knockdowns with enough time to set it up. If the opponent doesn’t tech any Tsurugi knockdown or EX Hayate for some reason, you can confirm that and do the mixup. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to crossup empty Tsurugi after a sweep and still have time to meaty, although you can still do it for a fake meaty Tsurugi.
The timing varies depending on what knockdown you landed, but for a failsafe you can use LK to not cross up and HK to cross up. Under perfect circumstances, it would be best to use MK to not cross up just because it looks more like HK Tsurugi than LK does, but MK usually has tighter timing and LK is still fine for most ambiguous purposes, so it’s a matter of preference.
Most of these setups don’t really work the same in the corner because Tsurugi is difficult to cross up with against a downed opponent. Instead you can just replace the crossup HK Tsurugi with an empty forward jump, and use a late MK Tsurugi for the non-crossup.
Also, be aware that certain characters wake up faster or slower than others, so you may need to adjust your timing against them.
Off backthrow:
The most effective method for me has been: wait slightly, then jump forward and do the Tsurugi as early as possible in the jump. If you do HK Tsurugi, you’ll always cross up. If you do LK Tsurugi, you’ll always not cross up. If you do MK Tsurugi, you’ll not cross up if you do it instantly, and cross up if your timing is late. If it helps, you can walk backward slightly before you jump. Personally I don’t like to add extra inputs when possible, it just throws off my timing.
Off EX Oroshi: (HP Oroshi is similar)
Two main differences between this and the backthrow version. One, you have a lot more time, so you wait a while longer before jumping. You may want to find a normal to whiff to give you the correct timing, I just like to wait. Two, you’re farther away after the knockdown so you need to do the Tsurugi higher in the air. This is where you may want to go for LK/HK mixup instead of MK/HK if you’re not confident in doing MK at the correct height. Summary: Wait a good amount of time, then jump forward and do the Tsurugi at about above Ryu’s standing height.
Off Ultra 1:
F+LK, wait, jump forward and do the Tsurugi at about Ryu’s standing height. Instead, you can do: dash forward, wait slightly, jump forward and instantly do tsurugi, but I feel the timing is tighter on that.
Off EX Hayate in the corner:
If the enemy quickstands, you can’t get the proper mixup, but you can still do the crossup part if you jump forward instantly. Just be aware you won’t have the same frame advantage as usual. If the enemy doesn’t quickstand, you can freely perform the mixup as if it were EX Oroshi, but remember that you have to replace the crossup HK Tsurugi with regular empty jump. You can mix this up with actually hitting the opponent during the quickstand (described above the spacer.)
Off EX Hayate midscreen (no quickstand):
Can’t get it if they quickstand. If they don’t, you can dash forward twice and proceed similar to after backthrow.
Off Tsurugi (no quickstand):
Can’t get it if they quickstand. If they don’t, you can proceed as if it were EX Oroshi.
Off Sweep:
Can’t cross up, but you can still bait with the tsurugi if you want to. Jump instantly, instant MK Tsurugi, block/meaty.
Timing notes
Instead of tediously recording and playing back against player 1 reversal jabs to see if you got the timing right, just set Makoto as player one and do the setup, then try to land a meaty s.MP afterwards. If you can combo s.MP, cr.HP, then you got the timing right. This is a great exercise to practice regularly, it allows you to practice a few things:
- Getting used to using the setup itself
- Practicing the input for instant Tsurugi
- Practicing meaty timing
- Practicing link timing off s.MP
Try to do the setup so that you land just in time for a meaty s.MP. If you do the Tsurugi too late, you might get jabbed or thrown out of your mixup. If you do the Tsurugi too early, then it’s easier to react and block/reversal the mixup, although it can still be a decent idea occasionally so that you can start off with an overhead, which are usually too slow for the normal timing after Tsurugi (though you can still do meaty s.MP xx oroshi.)
Finally, once you’ve conditioned your opponent to this mixup, you can throw in some real jumping MK crossups, or the anti-reversal HK Tsurugi if you’re worried about :db::df::db::df: SRKs.
For my own opinion on a personal perspective by the way, I always liked this kind of setup in SF4 and I was hoping Makoto would have something similar with Tsurugi.
I know people have mentioned difficulty against unconditioned opponents. In order to use karakusa as a serious tool there are all those pests you have to swat down to get them to sit and block (reversals, jumps, backdashes, mashing lights), and then you can start doing grab ticks and resets and so on.
Perhaps learning this setup might help with that aspect of her game. On the one hand you have things like frametrap blockstrings to force the enemy to stop pressing buttons, option selects for backdashes, and passive baiting to get people to stop trying SRKs.
What I like about this kind of setup is that can be a bit of a shortcut to skip some of those steps, allowing you to be aggressive early in a fight and still relatively safe compared to a regular meaty. Especially against people who haven’t seen it before, a crossup empty Tsurugi into meaty LK Karakusa can be extremely effective. If they try a usual reversal or backdash, it has a decent chance of being ruined by the reverse input, and they can’t even think about pressing normal buttons on wakeup. The only things it loses to against an unaware opponent are a direction-independent reversal (flash kick) and a neutral jump, which is a rare unconditioned reaction to a jump-in Tsurugi.
Of course, it’s less effective against people who are aware of it and react with it in mind, since backdashes and reversals come back into play if they guess the direction correctly, but it’s still not really a gimmick then. Doing a meaty from your choice of directions is still preferable to sitting around after a knockdown and doing a meaty from a predictable direction. While it’s easier to block if they’re looking for it, with proper timing it can still be tough to reversal in the correct direction on reaction, which increases the chance of the enemy respecting your mixup. And there’s still more depth to be dug, once they’re conditioned to the empty crossup and then the fake empty crossup, you can change your timing and start hitting with the tsurugi (meaty tsurugi can cross up and avoid reversals), or do crossup/empty jump throw/empty jump low mixup.
Thing about tsurugi is that the lp and mk version is not safe on block, unlike burning kick and canon…
can’t rely on it alot, especial on wake up, most reversal will beat it clean.
Isn’t mk tsurugi -1 on block (when done as low as possible?)
Of course, invincible reversals and even focus tends to wreck a good deal of havoc against tsurugi on wake-up… And purposely whiffing isn’t the worst idea… But the tsurugi’s all have 11 frames of recovery once they touch ground. Meaning that it needs to be whiffed pretty early if you want to be able to block a reversal. And that kind of thing can sometimes be reacted to by people that have a good sense of wake-up timing.
Actually no, instant MK Tsurugi is safe on block against Ryu, LK is safe against crouching Ryu. It’s only unsafe if you do it from higher up.
Well, reversals beat most things clean, but you can time HK Tsurugi after most of your knockdowns to potentially avoid/beat a lot of reversals.
The part you quoted was referring to a specific situation (meaty mk tsurugi on enemy quickstand after ex hayate) and actually now that I tested it, it avoids SRK if he does it as a reversal. This specific EX Hayate setup is definitely gimmicky though because he can vary his tech timing, or just EX Tatsu.
I’ll assume you weren’t talking about the second part of the post, that was about whiffing the Tsurugi before they wake up, not hitting with it, so there’s no chance for any reversal to beat it.
Awesome arc rail, i will test this out. Getting ambiguous meaties is something mak def needs since her cross up so unreliable (epsecially against ryu ) and has low block stun.
that’s what i was testing (but against sagat).
Tsurugi MK will crossup him (at least in the corner. Didnt try mid-screen yet), but makoto stays in front of him. So its a good thing.
The only problem is that if he crouches…tsurugi whiff 